Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?

[Terminal Blue]

You know what the funny thing is? 40k is not dark. It's no more dark than a Saturday morning cartoon. In fact, if I was bitter and paranoid (and I am) I'd say that all the "dark" bits have been systematically purged over the years to the point where what is left is a kind of superficial angst and tragic wish fulfilment.

If there was a movie, Linkin Park could do the sound track and it would probably not sound out of place, because that's the emotional level. It's not dark, it's not horrifying, it's just kind of angsty.

Millions of people died in the course of the narrative of the Star Wars films. Is Star Wars "dark"? Fuck no. A story isn't "dark" because of its bodycount, it becomes dark when that bodycount has stakes, or when you actually care about all the grim things which are happening. 40k never does that, it never asks you to care one jot about anything that happens to anyone in it. Sure, planets get blown up. So what? Who was on those planets? Does the setting ever ask you to care? Sure, characters sit there and brood about it, but it's purely cosmetic because there are no stakes, why should anyone care about people we know nothing about dying "off camera", so to speak?

I think what makes the setting seem so immature is the slightly tragic expectation that anyone does care. That somehow because there is "bad stuff" in the setting its really dark and edgy. It's not. It's funny, and the times when it was most fun to play and write in that setting was when it was still aware of how silly it was. Maybe it's just me growing out of it, but I don't get that feeling any more.

 

[Adept Mechanicus]

Put it this way: the setting is so over the top hilariously masculine and dark that it becomes self-parody, although the occasional piece of fluff is very well written. For instance, the 3rd Edition Necron Codex gave me nightmares as a child because of how well the Lovecraftian horror stuff was written.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

OK, I slightly misunderstood your post then, I was focusing on the "second class citizens" part, which is not the case.

Well, I was wrong on that part of my post, so it's less than no problem.

Indeed, everything has been resolved amicably with rational discourse and without the need to resort to violence, if only the inhabitants of the 40K universe could learn from our example.

 

[Ticonderoga117]

So, what is everyone's favorite chapter of the glorious Imperium of Man?

Heretics and xenos need not apply.

Black Templars!

[img height =400]http://40kcampaigns.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/chaplain_grimaldus__emperors_champion.jpg[/img]

 

[Artemis923]

So, what is everyone's favorite chapter of the glorious Imperium of Man?

Heretics and xenos need not apply.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!

I shall crush your bones and give your skull to Khorne, feeble son of Russ!

 

[Versuvius]

WAAAAGH!

Greenskin Masta Race, reportin' in.

 

[awol360]

I've been interested in Warhammer 40K since I was a little kid and found my cousin's Space Hulks game, but didn't really take to Warhammer 40K until I started reading the books. Out of all the authors of the Black Library, you'd probably be best off starting with Dan Abnett, Graham McNeill or Sandy Mitchell. The sad thing is, with the way that Games Workshop and the Black Library authors have created the universe of 40k, if humanity were to try to have a moment of peace, they'd get the crap stomped out of them by some other faction.

As far as mysogany is concerned, just look at the world today. Women (on average) don't get paid as well as men, and don't get taken as seriously in roles of authority. Which is odd considering there's been tests proving that women do as well, if not better than men in many military situations (I remember a naval test that found women statistically do better than men dealing with life on a submarine). That's also echoed quite often in Warhammer 40K novels; Women are rarely Inquisitors or Commissars, Lord Generals or Planetary Governors. Oddly enough, the ones that do reach these roles are very well respected by the people that serve under them (Inquisitor Amberly Vail~ of the Ciaphas Cain series, Inquisitor Neve in Eisenhorn Trilogy is in charge of all Inquisitorial action on Cadia, a key Imperial planet, Colonel Regina Kasteen (again Ciaphas Cain).

In a nutshell, Warhammer 40K can be summed up in a sentence, " It's good if you enjoy it, but it's obviously not going to appeal to everyone."

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

*Snip*

No one reads a crime novel because they think the detective is going to wipe out all crime forever.

No one gets into a Warhammer 40,000 book/game/whatever because they think the war's going to end.

You're supposed to get invested in the specific situation at hand. You want one side to win just because you like them. It's like saying "What's the point of watching CSI? There's always going to be a crime next time, so why bother trying?"

An examples: In the greater scheme of things, one regiment being completely wiped out makes no difference. But if that regiment was, say, the Tanith First and Only you better believe the reader would care. Just because you, someone who has made no effort to invest into any of the stories, doesn't care about the characters in those stories doesn't mean no one does.

 

[Eddie the head]

There seams to be two levels to Warhammer 40k Grim Darkness, or over the top campiness. (Is that a word?) I don't find one or the other appealing. It seams like a 12 year old's idea of cool to me.

The novels however, depending on who's writing them, are some of the best explorations of the human condition that the sci-fi genre gets.

Where as I can't say that's wrong I seriously doubt it. I hold no hope that the writers are better then Isaac Asimov, H. G. Wells, Or C.S Lewis in this regard.

 

[TheRaven476]

It?s unfortunate because the lore of 40K used to be very good. It was always overtly dark but at its inception it dealt with it in a very complex way and was never for its own sake. Unfortunately some of the the people that took over certain areas have really run it into the ground.

Back in the 80s and early 90s the lore surrounding 40K could have been viewed as some of the more complex and unique independent writing. There was an overruling empire beginning to get stretched too thin lead by an evil barely living deity that needed thousands of human sacrifices a day. It had strong religious motifs and essentially ran like a corrupt papal state which provide fantastic irony given that it was born out of a crusade to remove all religion or the worship of any deity from the universe. There was a well put together history of a civil way that on the surface appeared to be a simple ?demon worshiping evil guys vs good guys?, however, when the concept of demons is expanded to show that they are merely physical manifestations of the primary emotions of living beings it becomes more of a schism between acceptance or denial of human emotions and a deep look at self-introspection. Even the space marines were shown as cold unsympathetic beings devoid of humanity even though they?re only purpose was to protect humanity. An ideological breakdown was present in which the questions ?Is something created for a singular purpose of protecting humanity considered human, or is it merely a tool that is devoid of its own humanity??, and ?What happens when those created to protect us consider themselves our betters in every way and start to question why their propose should be simply protecting the inferior??.

The other races also provided great foils and complex back stories. A an elegant and superior race of doomed beings that have achieved technological advancements beyond comprehension but are slowly dying out and have souls that will inevitably be horrible consumed and tortured by the god their own decadence created. Their existence conjures both the feelings of awe and pity simultaneously and invoke some really conflicting emotions. Their dark counterparts are a race entirely of sadistic psychopaths led by a immensely powerful former slave that upon closer inspection reveals his boredom with his own power and a desire for an end to rein due to the lack of adversity. Even the torture loving, dark art practicing, race of enslavers begin to show cracks of sympathy when you yourself must ask ?If you knew your soul were doomed to an eternity of torture, how far would you go to put off death? Would you really act so differently??. On top of that you have the green skinned British accent monstrosities that grow from mushrooms that spread throughout the galaxy like spores for comedic relief. The mysterious unimaginable inhuman swarm of near biologic perfection that feels no emotion and appears to literally have no soul. Each providing its own unique archetype that gives the universe contrast and yet fills a niche that might be needed.

Unfortunately the company went public in the late 90s and began a crusade to try and become more ?Mainstream?. Recent developers that have been brought really bastardized the lore and simplified it to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Attempts were made to make certain sides appear to be more ?We?re the good guys, they?re the bad guys?. Complexity and controversy were removed and all emotion except barely contained rage was stripped from the universe. Some people that helped put this universe together are still there and what they put out continues to have the same greatness as before, but that is few and far between. Unfortunately this has now become an overly simplified uncomplex corporate run universe aimed at appealing to the demographic that can provide the most money. The goal of playing it safe also meant that the universal lore has barely moved forward an inch in the last 15 years.

One of my favorite stories from the 80 was still when a man actually was in the presence of the emperor and the conversation he had showed the emperor as an absolutely bat shit insane multi personality raving lunatic that carried on conversations with itself half the time, who?s consciousness was hanging on by a thread as thin as his sanity. It was brilliant but the lore will never have anything that controversial in it again??..

 

[Therumancer]

Admittedly this might be due to over-exposure from a friend who won't shut the hell up about it, but I really can't see the appeal of the story of Warhammer 40K. (I emphasize story because the games are pretty fun gameplay wise)

The entire setting seems like a big case of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy].

I read through some wiki pages and listened to my friends and have played enough of the games to know the basic premise and factions; and I couldn't give less of rats ass who wins. 90% of the characters are jackasses and the ones who aren't are probably dead knowing this setting, and that's not getting into how there are no actually "good" or even "meh" characters.

Hell reading the wiki alone made me feel uncomfortable, there's no hope, its overly violent and its practically childish; something an "edgy" thirteen year old would make up.

Not to mention its a tad misogynistic (Such as there being limited female soldiers that aren't part of the female only faction, the eldar or the dark eldar) and obviously caters to younger males. (Something that irks me to no end)

Can someone explain the appeal of this universe to me? Because to me it all seems over the top and plain stupid.

Warhammer 40k irks some people because it's not in keeping with modern morality and the sense of good and evil. Rather it's focused on a more realistic point of view and right and wrong being dictated based on the long term. Certain things like torture, mass murder, etc... not being presented as inherantly bad is simply showing them in a realistic light, as opposed from an ivory tower, left wing perspective. To those that think what's been happening in The Middle East is a real "war" this is kind of shocking.

Understood on it's own terms, it's pretty straightforward actually. The Imperium are the good guys out to protect humanity. The draconian tactics and societal constructs being nessicary for it to succeed given the current high threat enviroment, the breakdown of reliable information, and other things. Frequently innocents have to die and suffer for the greater good, simply because that's how it is. The other factions might not be evil from their own point of view, but do not have the best interests of humanity at heart even in a long term sense, despite how they might occasionally present themselves. This is much like real life where there is no actual "good" or "evil" in the left wing, hollywood sense, but rather conflicts of differant visions. Nobody wakes up in the morning going "gee, I really want to be evil today", Nazis, Muslims, etc... all saw/see themselves as the good guys. Warhammer 40k simply let's you see things from an overall perspective, where if your a human The Imperium is pretty much the best option availible.

It's also important to understand that despite the pre-amble, everything does turn out for the best in the end. A lot of the novels, sourcebooks (the few that I've read), and other things have included pre-ludes presenting the information as something being looked back on from thousands of years in the future, with this being specified as the great age of conflicts. From the intended perspective it never ends, but in reality it does eventually come to an end and what you see here was simply the necessity in pursuit of a greater good.

As far as straightforward good guys go, you kind of have to look at the novels for examples of that. Gregor Eisenhorn and Ravenor (his apprentice) are pretty heroic and justify their tactics quite well, the same could be said of Ibram Gaunt (Gaunt's Ghosts), and others.

Also you have to consider that the minatures game, and the video games, generally focus on a very specific aspect of the universe. When you look beyond that to things like the Arbiters (think Judge Dredd), Gang Houses (Necromunda), Rogue Traders, and others it does give some non-military perspective.

All universe building aside, understand that at it's core this was a minatures war game, and a very expensive one. The lore was written to justify people with any army being able to explain playing against any other army. The Imperium seems so screwed up at times because game nessecity sort of requires scenarios where you could pit say Imperial Guard against Space Marines, or Eldar Vs. Eldar, or whatever else, as opposed to setting things up so only members of specific factions could ever be logically fighting each other. From that perspective the fiction of Warhammer 40k is quite ingenius.

Understand this is also intended to be an intentionally dark setting, to set it apart from more straightforward space operas (like Star Wars). "Dark Fantasy" really isn't to everyone's tastes. It's sort of like real cyberpunk (as opposed to those who throw the term around), if you actually read stuff like George Alec Effinger, William Gibson, and others nowadays people who claim to embrace Cyberpunk would probably criticize it the same way 40k is criticized. On some level's it's even darker than 40k is. Marid from Effinger's "When Gravity Fails" and it's sequel is probably about as flawed and unlikable a hero as your ever going to encounter.

 

[Versuvius]

snip

One of my favorite stories from the 80 was still when a man actually was in the presence of the emperor and the conversation he had showed the emperor as an absolutely bat shit insane multi personality raving lunatic that carried on conversations with itself half the time, who?s consciousness was hanging on by a thread as thin as his sanity. It was brilliant but the lore will never have anything that controversial in it again??..

Inquisition War, it was Inquisitor Draco. The Emperor had split his consiousness into billions of individuals to watch the Galaxy and fix lots of small problems, since one mind could not possibly see all of the milky way or indeed, fix it all at once. Inevitably some of the individual emprahs went mad.

 

[II2]

Admittedly this might be due to over-exposure from a friend who won't shut the hell up about it, but I really can't see the appeal of the story of Warhammer 40K. (I emphasize story because the games are pretty fun gameplay wise)

The entire setting seems like a big case of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy].

I read through some wiki pages and listened to my friends and have played enough of the games to know the basic premise and factions; and I couldn't give less of rats ass who wins. 90% of the characters are jackasses and the ones who aren't are probably dead knowing this setting, and that's not getting into how there are no actually "good" or even "meh" characters.

Hell reading the wiki alone made me feel uncomfortable, there's no hope, its overly violent and its practically childish; something an "edgy" thirteen year old would make up.

Not to mention its a tad misogynistic (Such as there being limited female soldiers that aren't part of the female only faction, the eldar or the dark eldar) and obviously caters to younger males. (Something that irks me to no end)

Can someone explain the appeal of this universe to me? Because to me it all seems over the top and plain stupid.

I like 40k a lot, but I think I understand your sentiment.

I like 40k because I like Lovecraft and the type of pulpy, philosophical space nihilism and grand mythologies they both share. If you're unfamiliar with the setting, I'll spare you a point by point sermon, but it's fair to say if you spend the time getting acquainted with the canon, you'll see the the GRIMDARK is at the service of logical, tragic and cosmic plot points, instead of *just* being grim for grim's sake... Though, that said, they've turned the volume on every single asethetic and plot facet up to 11 and broke the knob off.

....

All of this is kinda moot though if you just don't like it. Natural magnetism will draw you to it and the lore will make you stay interested, but if your first feeling is repulsion, you're probably not going to get anything out of wrangling with 'enjoyment as duty'. Downside, you don't get to tap the fun. Upside, you've saved a ton of money.

As an aside, while it's fair to say the constant revisions, updates and refinement of the series has been to it's benefit in modernizing it, the origin's of the 40k story have their roots in the mid-late 80's and 90's. The story was crafted by young UK and American men during a time of nihilistic pop culture celebration, without very little editorial oversight. It's grown, but it is an enduring product of it's time.