Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?

[Dark Prophet]

There is some pretty good stuff in there, some deep and thought provoking themes, also things that are just awesome. But having read rather alarming amount about the warhammer universe I also think a large portion of it needs to be cut and forgotten because it makse good parts far less good and noticeable.

 

[Scorpid]

Obviously it's over the top, you can't start anything with "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war" and then not be over the top.

It's very difficult to pin down exactly why people love it, because it's so vast that each person can love completely different things about it. Though I would say that reading the wiki pages is a bad way to try and understand it for that exact reason.

Believe it or not, the overly violent and no hope parts are actually a big appeal to a lot of people. So is the fact that you can argue until the 41st millennium over who really counts as a good guy or a bad guy between all the factions. Aside from that, with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Sororitas there isn't really a gender split (at least on the human side), pretty much all the organisations have a mix of both men and women.

Essentially, you sound like you're already made up on this, but I'd recommend picking up one of the books and giving it a go. Ciaphas Cain and Eisenhorn are pretty good bets. As far as the characters being jackasses go, though there are so many by this point you can't possibly be doing more than picking and choosing or wild speculation for your 90% figure, but their actions and motives do make a lot more sense in context rather than just taken off a wiki page.

I disagree, I find Dan Abnett writing for women horrible. You can always tell which females are going to be more important by how attractive they are (and he rarely kills off women anyway, they get special mercies more likely then not). Every female is half mother half lover or all sudo daughter. Eisenhorn in particular was hard to get through and one of those reasons was how badly many of the women were written.
I've always recommended Lord of Night to people wanting to get into WH40k fiction. It's one book that's a self contained story that ties into no other story, and on top of that it touches on many of the factions in the imperium in one way or another as well as it's most important historical event. Also it's characters are some of the best realized I've come across. But in this case for someone worried that the universe is overly misogynistic it's got a really good female lead character that isn't a mother, lover or daughter type character.

 

[Arqus_Zed]

It isn't - you just try to enjoy it for everything except the story.

It's kind of like playing any and every high fantasy western RPG (well, maybe not all of them, but let's say 93 - 97 % of them). They a world that is basically a slightly altered re-hash of the mythologies Tolkien re-worked to create his Lord Of The Rings universe.

So why do they still sell as well as they do? Because the fans like the gameplay, the freedom and the familiar territory of the atmosphere.

It's just the same with Warhammer - the story sucks, but then again, it doesn't really matter, does it? It's all about the macho weapons and cries and blood and gore and shameless over-the-top guilty pleasure wish fulfillment.

I mean, I still don't like it, but I do understand and respect it.

 

[Erttheking]

I can't be the only one who is getting a little tired of people going "x is childish," implying that the people who like X are also childish and immature. It's kind of insulting. Hey! News flash! Just because people like something that you don't, they're not automatically immature!

 

[Alhazred]

Warhammer Fantasy is better. That is all.

 

[Alandoril]

40k is pulp fiction. Simple as that. It's designed to be readily consumable and easily forgettable. The fact that it's been around so long means that there is a market for it, and frankly I'm partial to it myself. Since I spend so much of my time (well up until recently) writing and reading serious literature, it's nice to unwind with something which is just balls to the wall crazy.

 

[Therumancer]

It?s unfortunate because the lore of 40K used to be very good. It was always overtly dark but at its inception it dealt with it in a very complex way and was never for its own sake. Unfortunately some of the the people that took over certain areas have really run it into the ground.

Back in the 80s and early 90s the lore surrounding 40K could have been viewed as some of the more complex and unique independent writing. There was an overruling empire beginning to get stretched too thin lead by an evil barely living deity that needed thousands of human sacrifices a day. It had strong religious motifs and essentially ran like a corrupt papal state which provide fantastic irony given that it was born out of a crusade to remove all religion or the worship of any deity from the universe. There was a well put together history of a civil way that on the surface appeared to be a simple ?demon worshiping evil guys vs good guys?, however, when the concept of demons is expanded to show that they are merely physical manifestations of the primary emotions of living beings it becomes more of a schism between acceptance or denial of human emotions and a deep look at self-introspection. Even the space marines were shown as cold unsympathetic beings devoid of humanity even though they?re only purpose was to protect humanity. An ideological breakdown was present in which the questions ?Is something created for a singular purpose of protecting humanity considered human, or is it merely a tool that is devoid of its own humanity??, and ?What happens when those created to protect us consider themselves our betters in every way and start to question why their propose should be simply protecting the inferior??.

The other races also provided great foils and complex back stories. A an elegant and superior race of doomed beings that have achieved technological advancements beyond comprehension but are slowly dying out and have souls that will inevitably be horrible consumed and tortured by the god their own decadence created. Their existence conjures both the feelings of awe and pity simultaneously and invoke some really conflicting emotions. Their dark counterparts are a race entirely of sadistic psychopaths led by a immensely powerful former slave that upon closer inspection reveals his boredom with his own power and a desire for an end to rein due to the lack of adversity. Even the torture loving, dark art practicing, race of enslavers begin to show cracks of sympathy when you yourself must ask ?If you knew your soul were doomed to an eternity of torture, how far would you go to put off death? Would you really act so differently??. On top of that you have the green skinned British accent monstrosities that grow from mushrooms that spread throughout the galaxy like spores for comedic relief. The mysterious unimaginable inhuman swarm of near biologic perfection that feels no emotion and appears to literally have no soul. Each providing its own unique archetype that gives the universe contrast and yet fills a niche that might be needed.

Unfortunately the company went public in the late 90s and began a crusade to try and become more ?Mainstream?. Recent developers that have been brought really bastardized the lore and simplified it to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Attempts were made to make certain sides appear to be more ?We?re the good guys, they?re the bad guys?. Complexity and controversy were removed and all emotion except barely contained rage was stripped from the universe. Some people that helped put this universe together are still there and what they put out continues to have the same greatness as before, but that is few and far between. Unfortunately this has now become an overly simplified uncomplex corporate run universe aimed at appealing to the demographic that can provide the most money. The goal of playing it safe also meant that the universal lore has barely moved forward an inch in the last 15 years.

One of my favorite stories from the 80 was still when a man actually was in the presence of the emperor and the conversation he had showed the emperor as an absolutely bat shit insane multi personality raving lunatic that carried on conversations with itself half the time, who?s consciousness was hanging on by a thread as thin as his sanity. It was brilliant but the lore will never have anything that controversial in it again??..

Actually I've mostly read the novels, and I have to disagree to an extent. "Inquisition War" defined The Emperor more or less the same way. It was written in 2004. It went on to explain that what happened was that The Emperor was facing threats on so many fronts that he fragmented his own personality and assigned differant fragments to doing differant things, where they continued to develop seperatly. He's not "insane" in a traditional sense though for all intents and purposes it's doubtful that it matters. It's also debatable (outside the context of the novels) as to whether or not this is a bad thing because it DOES allow the Emperor to respond to things much more effectively despite some of his personalities seeming to have perhaps gone "rogue" in a way.

I remember this being referanced elsewhere a few times as well, though subtly, because it's not something many people would have any bloody idea about.

I also got the impression that The Emperor does have a sort of "overmind" running control despite how it seems even if Jaq Draco didn't see that, and that he's playing a deep game that most of the other factions don't see, looking at certain threads like his potential heirs and such and focusing on them while missing the big picture. I read somewhere a while back that the "end" of 40k is more or less when The Emperor's regeneration is complete and he actually does get up from The Golden Throne, not only more powerful than ever before, but also able to release and reincarnate all of the millions upon millions of psychics "sacrified" to him over the thousands of years he was pretty much "dead" in status, leading to massive WTFpwnage of every enemy the Imperium faces and a return to a golden age of humanity, The Emperor apparently expending himself to extinguish chaos (or at least the intelligent manifestation thereof). All of the stuff being presented about him, the plots within plots, and similar things, all coming down to the simple fact that The Emperor needs time to not only recover, but build enough strength, a truely epic amount of time. The idea being that every day goes by where nobody has taken earth plays to his favor and eventual victory, and when it comes to the endgame, nothing else matters.

I can't remember where I read that (it's been a while) but I seem to remember it coming up in a future vision at some point that was supposed to be an actual, inspiring, truth, to answer "why do we fight these odds". It's in keeping with some of the pre-ambles to stories which state people to be looking back at the dark ages from some presumably more enlightened time (since they call them the you know "dark" ages).

 

[ShotgunZombie]

So, what is everyone's favorite chapter of the glorious Imperium of Man?

Heretics and xenos need not apply.

The Legion of the Damned has arrived to crush the enemies of the Imperium! To us our battle brothers! CLEANSE, PURGE, KILL!

 

[el_kabong]

On misogyny: Honestly don't see it. Space Marines (despite the name) are basically space-monks (all male) and there's a corresponding faction of space-nuns (all female) There are few female guard models because of miniature match-up and mold issues (issues which can be alleiviated if you really need to) Orks reproduce by spores so technically there AREN'T any girls or guys(yes, i know they call themselves 'boyz', shut up)

The treatment of the SoB is sometimes alarming; they seem to exist in order to be massacred and/or raped by Dark Eldar.

As a DEldar player, I have to say I take exception to that. ALL other races only exist in order to be massacred and/or raped by the Dark Eldar.

Seriously though, and as other have said, it really depends on the writer and the story he's trying to convey.

 

[Slycne]

snip

I've always been partial to the Raven Guard, despite the emo-ness. Cause if there's one thing more frightening than a battle line of massive super-soldiers laden with firepower; it's knowing they are there but not being able to see them.

Although honestly, it's kind of hard not to love Bjorn.

OP: As a few other have been swifter to point out, there is a big different between story and setting.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Actually I've mostly read the novels, and I have to disagree to an extent. "Inquisition War" defined The Emperor more or less the same way. It was written in 2004..

I imagine that's because he's talking about "Inquisitor", the original name of "Draco", the 1st novel in the inquisition war trilogy, published in 1992, Harlequin in 94...and I forget when chaos child was 1st published.

Like a lot of fluff, when re-published it had the in universe "this may or may not be bullshit" clause at the front.

 

[woodaba]

Hell reading the wiki alone made me feel uncomfortable, there's no hope, its overly violent and its practically childish; something an "edgy" thirteen year old would make up.

A Bioware fan complaining about poor childish writing? *cough* glass houses *cough*

Wow, that's kinda...dickish.

 

[barbzilla]

And I don't disagree one bit, as long as you're making sense about it (and that's as much as I'll say without commenting about real life military).

I hate myself for coming off antagonistic even though I agree with someone mostly or entirely.

Don't feel bad, I tend to come off as overly defensive of my points. So I feel your pain.

I think that if we are going to put an end to sexism we need to embrace our own strengths in our respective genders, and pass our weaknesses on to someone else more suited. I think it is more an issue of representation. Especially in media. Everyone wants to feel represented and that is fine, but we can not all be represented in every single book, movie, game, story, or activity. It is like clothing, we don't expect to see guys in women's clothing ads, so why should we expect to see women in a male power fantasy book.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Apples and oranges, the overarching goal isn't to wipe out all crime forever, it's to figure out who done it. It's a smaller scale story with no real connection to a world much beyond that.

But with something like Warhammer, where each battle is just one of many many many happening simultaneously, and it's all linked together into one large massive overarching setting, any scenario that doesn't contribute to the established story is just wasting time.

Asking me to care about some poor group of bastards sent to fight on some desolate hellhole that is absolutely meaningless in context of the bigger picture is just stupid.

Would it not make more sense to just assume this largely pointless battle is happening somewhere else while reading about a vital battle that will decide the fate of the galaxy and the imperium one way or another? Why follow all the little meaningless battles instead of just the big gamechanging engagements that are actually meaningful? I mean in those same CSI shows it's not like they feel the need to waste time showing you an episode of the protagonists busting a kid for jay walking or littering. (But again, apples and oranges)

But it's not apples and oranges. You are insisting on thinking about the entire setting at once while being asked to think about a single story within the setting. You are doing the equivalent of saying "Who cares if the heroes triumph and solve the crime, there's still going to be more crime." "Who cares if the heroes triumph and win the battle, there's still going to be more war." Just because most people in the setting don't care about the main characters dying doesn't mean you can't.

I don't see how you can not get this; a story does not have to involve game-changing odds for the entire human species to be of interest. It just doesn't. In particular it happens all the time in tabletop games and RPGs like Warhammer 40,000, since you create a setting for other people to do interesting things in. Even if there is a conclusion, people will still create games set in the pre-conclusion era.

I just think that, ironically, you are being more nihilistic than the setting. It sounds like you're saying "Why should I care about these people? They're all going to die soon enough. Eventually no one will even remember them. They won't have an impact on history." That can be said about virtually any story ever.

By the way, if you're really going to complain about "apples and organges" you shouldn't have compared Star Wars to Warhammer 40,000.

 

[Simonism451]

It's pure metal...

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Consider in your OP you called it a childish thing like the writing by an "edgy" 13 year old, after only looking at the Wiki, I would would say you haven't looked into it far enough to have a valid amount of fact to back up your opinion.

You just had an annoying friend that wouldn't shut up about something and that's colored your perception of said thing.

Someone earlier even said something about Mass Effect being just as poor an example in his eyes and you didn't take it well.

Different people like different things, get over it. You don't see me crying over why people like Halo or My Little Pony just because I don't. Just like people don't bother asking me what the point of liking Transformers or Metroid is.

 

[Terminal Blue]

But it's not apples and oranges. You are insisting on thinking about the entire setting at once while being asked to think about a single story within the setting. You are doing the equivalent of saying "Who cares if the heroes triumph and solve the crime, there's still going to be more crime." "Who cares if the heroes triumph and win the battle, there's still going to be more war." Just because most people in the setting don't care about the main characters dying doesn't mean you can't.

I think the point Deveneux is trying to make, and I totally agree with it, is that individual narratives in 40k tend to lack any stakes.

A detective novel where the detective comes into work, solves the crime and then goes home again with nothing having really changed would be incredibly boring to read. Good detective novels are generally not about "solving the crime", in fact it's often little more than a McGuffin to drive the actual narrative progression, which is generally about the characters. A good detective novel doesn't expect us to randomly care about the people being murdered or the detective trying to solve the crime because holy shit, I'm a person too! or holy shit, I don't like crime either! It gives us reasons to care, it gives us stakes.

You can have a constant status quo which never really changes, and actually I think 40k was better back before there was any semblance of a metaplot, but if you want serious emotional investment in something there do need to be stakes. Do I care whether the Skull Warriors 5th company "Skull Division" defeats the numberless Tyranid hordes on hill 20574 of the planet Skulldonia? Do I care whether Lord Skullroth (leader of the Skull Warriors 5th Company) wins the seven thousandth battle of his career and preserves the honour of the Skull Warriors chapter? Do I care that the loss of Skulldonia will cause slight supply problems in the Calvaria sector, an area which will probably never be referenced again because at the end of the day its insignificant to the grand scheme? No. I have to say that I don't.

I'm exaggerating, but this to me is the problem with 40k fluff. The characters are generally either paper thin archetypes or weird anachronistic ripoffs of other military/sci-fi writing tropes, and the scale of the action is so enormously over the top that it's usually difficult to pick out any singular reason to care about anything.

Now, there don't have to be stakes, and this was actually my point.. that there was a time when it wasn't important, when you weren't expected to project yourself into your space marine commander, when your necron army was just a mindless force of puppets animated by the will of ancient Gods and not a bunch of banal mini-Skeletors out to do evil for evil's sake, when everything was so vast and absurd that you weren't necessarily expected to find personal identification with it, just themes and tropes and silliness and funky imagery. But you can't have it both ways, I don't feel I can be made to care on a personal level about something so silly.

Yeah, there are some exceptions which a writer with the appropriate gifts could maybe bring out. However, I don't think anyone on the Games Workshop or Black Library writing staff has those gifts. No offence to them.

 

[370999]

It's a setting not a story. What this means is that there is enough room in the universe to emphasis what you like and avoid what you don't. I tend to prefer the Imperium being unpleasent but ultimately looking out for humanities' best interest.

Likewise you have enough room to come up with your own character who is appealing.

But it is pappy sci-fi. And does sometimes have awful writing. So it comes down to taste.