Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?
- Thread starter Saviordd1
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This is all based on the video games for me:
I like it for the same reason that Expendables is my favorite movie of all time. Its ridiculously violent, and you dont need to think about it to have fun. Granted, its a horrible horrible place i would never want to live in, but it is super fun to play. I have never gone for warhammer because of the story. i have bought all the recent games because they are incredibly fun. i could not tell you much beyond the basic plot (even then i would get it wrong probably)
Basically, you are over thinking this. Sometimes you want to watch something deep that you have to think about like the artist (if your a masochist) but sometimes you just want to watch abraham lincoln cut off a vampires head with an axe. If you feel you should only expose yourself to enriching forms of media or entertainment. well... your a very boring person and i would not want to go to a party you throw.
I like it for the same reason that Expendables is my favorite movie of all time. Its ridiculously violent, and you dont need to think about it to have fun. Granted, its a horrible horrible place i would never want to live in, but it is super fun to play. I have never gone for warhammer because of the story. i have bought all the recent games because they are incredibly fun. i could not tell you much beyond the basic plot (even then i would get it wrong probably)
Basically, you are over thinking this. Sometimes you want to watch something deep that you have to think about like the artist (if your a masochist) but sometimes you just want to watch abraham lincoln cut off a vampires head with an axe. If you feel you should only expose yourself to enriching forms of media or entertainment. well... your a very boring person and i would not want to go to a party you throw.
The only thing that REALLY bothers me about warhammer is the armor. I don't care if they were trained or fused or anything like that. That armor looks impossible to move around in.
If you're gonna make power armor, make it look like you can move in it, or at least make proportions correct.
Take a look at the Halo armor, or even the Dead Space armor. Hell, even the BIG DADDY armor looks believable for the wearer to not be stopped by armor colliding with another part of the suit.
If you're gonna make power armor, make it look like you can move in it, or at least make proportions correct.
Take a look at the Halo armor, or even the Dead Space armor. Hell, even the BIG DADDY armor looks believable for the wearer to not be stopped by armor colliding with another part of the suit.
And then you have the completely understandable (not to mention entertaining) antics of those barmy Norse Vikings from hell!GunsmithKitten said:
Seriously, Chaos Warriors are brilliant.
OT: I like the massive hyperbole and dark humour. It's great.
Putting aside for the moment that the Dark Eldar's existence is basically to rape in the first place... Ya know what's more alarming?Politeia said:
I've seen several debates over whether or not the sisters are a mysoginistic element of the 40K setting.
But that is the FIRST time I've heard that
Sorry after reading through the rest of the thread I feel as though I need to address something else. Sexism!
Sexism among books is one place where this argument doesn't hold water. I'm sorry but I just won't hear it. I will agree that certain books/stories/genres might be sexist towards women, but I still won't agree with the complaints based on one key factor; Books geared towards women tend (notice I say tend and not always) to be sexist towards guys. Most romance books and even a fair amount of female geared fantasy books view men in one of two ways, either outright evil, or an overly sexually oriented version of men. This doesn't mean that all men are stud muffins either, with women sexual desire is based off of more factors than just attractiveness (actually this is true for men as well, but nobody ever seems to acknowledge the fact). But the books are written literally to excite women either sexually or emotionally.
So I would say books are equal unlike any other medium for entertainment. So if you happen upon a book that might be a bit sexist towards women, there is no room to complain.
I feel as though I need to clarify myself before the whole female community comes at me with torches and pitchforks. I don't condone sexism, or any other form of discrimination. But I feel two things are true here, one; the drive to find sexism against females in every aspect of life is becoming a bit over zealous, and two; I think we have much more pertinent targets for abolishing sexism (such as workplace and video games). When it comes to books I think it is pretty close to fair between men and women, in fact there are more female writers than there are male, and while you may not notice it in the library, this is because up until the past 40 years or so, this was a primarily male dominated medium so you have more books written by males (currently). However, when you consider modern writers and books, there are a greater number of females then males writing.
Sexism among books is one place where this argument doesn't hold water. I'm sorry but I just won't hear it. I will agree that certain books/stories/genres might be sexist towards women, but I still won't agree with the complaints based on one key factor; Books geared towards women tend (notice I say tend and not always) to be sexist towards guys. Most romance books and even a fair amount of female geared fantasy books view men in one of two ways, either outright evil, or an overly sexually oriented version of men. This doesn't mean that all men are stud muffins either, with women sexual desire is based off of more factors than just attractiveness (actually this is true for men as well, but nobody ever seems to acknowledge the fact). But the books are written literally to excite women either sexually or emotionally.
So I would say books are equal unlike any other medium for entertainment. So if you happen upon a book that might be a bit sexist towards women, there is no room to complain.
I feel as though I need to clarify myself before the whole female community comes at me with torches and pitchforks. I don't condone sexism, or any other form of discrimination. But I feel two things are true here, one; the drive to find sexism against females in every aspect of life is becoming a bit over zealous, and two; I think we have much more pertinent targets for abolishing sexism (such as workplace and video games). When it comes to books I think it is pretty close to fair between men and women, in fact there are more female writers than there are male, and while you may not notice it in the library, this is because up until the past 40 years or so, this was a primarily male dominated medium so you have more books written by males (currently). However, when you consider modern writers and books, there are a greater number of females then males writing.
Mostly cause its a big excuse to have the dozen or so crazy unrealistic, rule of cool factions to fight each other. Since everyone is a jerk ass there's plausible reasons for everyone to fight everyone. It's ridiculously dark, grim, stupid and that to me is part of the fun.
But more meta. Not everything can or should appeal to everyone. There is room in the world for all sorts of things that appeal to all sorts of people of differing view points. We're better off creating a large variety of media that appeal to different groups (My little pony, twilight, justin beibre to name some contentious media) and let everyone enjoy what they enjoy. That's not an argument that you can't criticize or analyse something but at the end of the day everyone gets to enjoy what they enjoy.
But more meta. Not everything can or should appeal to everyone. There is room in the world for all sorts of things that appeal to all sorts of people of differing view points. We're better off creating a large variety of media that appeal to different groups (My little pony, twilight, justin beibre to name some contentious media) and let everyone enjoy what they enjoy. That's not an argument that you can't criticize or analyse something but at the end of the day everyone gets to enjoy what they enjoy.
How is Assassin's Creeds story even remotely appealing?
How is Halo's story even remotely appealing?
How is Twilight's story even remotely appealing?
How is Batmans story even remotely appealing?
Opinions and preferences you say? Well I'll be damned...
How is Halo's story even remotely appealing?
How is Twilight's story even remotely appealing?
How is Batmans story even remotely appealing?
Opinions and preferences you say? Well I'll be damned...
OP... Do you realize some people like Tyranids? Or Chaos?
There's hope for tyranids. Sooner or later they will nom everything.
There's hope for tyranids. Sooner or later they will nom everything.
Glad you agree with me, but I will have to disagree with your point here. Women may not be as fit for hand to hand combat that you see a fair portion of the W40K universe taking, so I understand where you are coming from, but just as there are positions men are more suited for, there are also roles women are more suited for in the military. For example, women make better spies (with the exception of truly misogynistic areas of the world) because it is generally easier for women to get in and out of places (in the civilized areas of the world). Women are more flexible and often smaller, meaning they would also make better snipers (or any other role that may require them to find small tight spots to hide in for extended periods of time).Hammeroj said:
Now as far as the Warhammer universe, I can see your point about gender inequality. I think this might be what women are raging about, but I honestly think that there is no reason for this rage. Books are about as fair a medium as you will get, and just as there are books that cater to women, there should be books that cater to men (other than playboy), but this is all covered in my previous post. I just wanted you to know that I a not completely against you in the context of W40K
In my opinion??
I think the greatest thing about Warhammer and Warhammer 40k (as their appeal is fundamentally the same for me) the fact that you get to place your persona/will/attitude into a table top force and battle against others who are doing the same. You clash against opposing will's, crush the attitudes of your lessers, and get destroyed by the persona's of your betters (just to give it a bit of dramatic flair)
For example, I play Imperial Guard in 40k. I enjoy the "everyman" aspect of the army and how its power is in its massive, unending numbers and firepower. To grab a quote from the 5th edition Imperial Guard book:
"I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialized drop troops, stealthers, mechanized formations, armored companies, combat engineers and mobile artillery. Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces are mine to command. Emperor show mercy to the fool that stands against me, for I shall not.
? at the outset of the Salonika Crusade, 733.M38"
THAT is just badass, and (from a gaming perspective) when you get together with like minded people who can get into the spirit of their particular faction/army/race (whichever you prefer to call it) it really brings a new level of enjoyment out of the game.
I explain it to my non-table top friends like this and the fact that, sometimes the lore/rping value doesn't matter to some people, and that is totally okay.
Hope that helps.. and remember
"Victory is achieved through mettle.
Glory is achieved through metal."
I think the greatest thing about Warhammer and Warhammer 40k (as their appeal is fundamentally the same for me) the fact that you get to place your persona/will/attitude into a table top force and battle against others who are doing the same. You clash against opposing will's, crush the attitudes of your lessers, and get destroyed by the persona's of your betters (just to give it a bit of dramatic flair)
For example, I play Imperial Guard in 40k. I enjoy the "everyman" aspect of the army and how its power is in its massive, unending numbers and firepower. To grab a quote from the 5th edition Imperial Guard book:
"I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialized drop troops, stealthers, mechanized formations, armored companies, combat engineers and mobile artillery. Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces are mine to command. Emperor show mercy to the fool that stands against me, for I shall not.
? at the outset of the Salonika Crusade, 733.M38"
THAT is just badass, and (from a gaming perspective) when you get together with like minded people who can get into the spirit of their particular faction/army/race (whichever you prefer to call it) it really brings a new level of enjoyment out of the game.
I explain it to my non-table top friends like this and the fact that, sometimes the lore/rping value doesn't matter to some people, and that is totally okay.
Hope that helps.. and remember
"Victory is achieved through mettle.
Glory is achieved through metal."
When I first misread the title, I thought it was referring to me. ;_;
Seriously though, I was into the series at the beginning, but it was more of the "neat! it's a game with miniatures AND a story!". The more I got into it, and the more I checked out each faction's storyline, it just got convoluted and frustrating. It's like the second edition of World of Darkness. If you went with one of the systems (Vampire, Werewolf, etc.), you were fine. When you had two, things started to get a bit frustrating at times but you still had a good time as long as people focused. If you somehow had all of the books? It took forever.
Went on a tangent just now. Sorry about that. >_> Anyhoo, WH40K's the kind of game you play for the action. Take your stories in small chunks and with enough salt to taste almost nothing but salt. ... Yeah, my writing's rusty.
Seriously though, I was into the series at the beginning, but it was more of the "neat! it's a game with miniatures AND a story!". The more I got into it, and the more I checked out each faction's storyline, it just got convoluted and frustrating. It's like the second edition of World of Darkness. If you went with one of the systems (Vampire, Werewolf, etc.), you were fine. When you had two, things started to get a bit frustrating at times but you still had a good time as long as people focused. If you somehow had all of the books? It took forever.
Went on a tangent just now. Sorry about that. >_> Anyhoo, WH40K's the kind of game you play for the action. Take your stories in small chunks and with enough salt to taste almost nothing but salt. ... Yeah, my writing's rusty.
In the hands of a skilled writer, the setting has a huge amount of potential for tragedy and drama and humour.
Take the dark eldar. On the face of it, they all look like sick, psychopathic bastards. Because they are. And then you realise that they only got that way because it's all they can do to prevent themselves from slowly being consumed by a malevolent God. They're all that's left of a once-great empire, now forced to hide away in the warp. Each individual is conditioned to be cruel and brutal because they're entire life revolves around a constant struggle to survive.
I could see someone writing a genuinely sympathetic-in-a-Sweeney-Todd-way type character out of that. Nobody has; but it shows that the setting in itself isn't terrible, it's just that few writers make the most of it.
As for misogyny, I don't really think that women are under-represented. Most factions are either genderless or stated in lore to include a large number of female individuals. I actually think the setting treats women better than other media that are aimed at men; in 40k, women are never eye candy, if they are soldiers then they are generally as scarred and battle-hardened as the men, whilst the men and women of humanoid factions like the eldar are both equally handsome and similarly apparelled.
Anyways, the wiki pages aren't a great way to acquaint oneself with the lore. Try the Ciaphas Cain series.
Take the dark eldar. On the face of it, they all look like sick, psychopathic bastards. Because they are. And then you realise that they only got that way because it's all they can do to prevent themselves from slowly being consumed by a malevolent God. They're all that's left of a once-great empire, now forced to hide away in the warp. Each individual is conditioned to be cruel and brutal because they're entire life revolves around a constant struggle to survive.
I could see someone writing a genuinely sympathetic-in-a-Sweeney-Todd-way type character out of that. Nobody has; but it shows that the setting in itself isn't terrible, it's just that few writers make the most of it.
As for misogyny, I don't really think that women are under-represented. Most factions are either genderless or stated in lore to include a large number of female individuals. I actually think the setting treats women better than other media that are aimed at men; in 40k, women are never eye candy, if they are soldiers then they are generally as scarred and battle-hardened as the men, whilst the men and women of humanoid factions like the eldar are both equally handsome and similarly apparelled.
Anyways, the wiki pages aren't a great way to acquaint oneself with the lore. Try the Ciaphas Cain series.
All of em, or just smurfs and Ward-marines? 'cos some chapters are quite cool. I like Salamanders, they're the only chapter that's actually more concerned about defending civilians than they are about slaughtering xenos.janerowdy said:
