Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?

[Smeatza]

Try reading something written by Dan Abnett. Fantastic author...he'll show why the world is so awesome.

This, I recommend the Eisenhorn trilogy.
I started reading the Warhammer 40k books having never played the board game or video games and still love them to bits.
And the term misogynist gets thrown around way too lightly these days, I especially wouldn't call the Warhammer books misogynist.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

To be honest. Some of the fun of the universe is entirely due to how seriously it takes itself while presenting concepts so completely over the top and ridiculous that you can't possibly take it seriously.

Take the Adepta Sororitas or for example. Here you have a military group of blindly faithful religious zealots purging the worlds of evil..usually by shooting everyone who disagrees with them.

In and of itself that's a pretty grim concept.

But then they take that concept and present it as an army of power armour wearing battle nuns wearing jet packs and tear-assing around in a tank made out of a pipe organ and...yeah it just takes a lot of the sting out of it to the point where you can't possibly take it as seriously as it's pretending to be.


That's not to say that there aren't some really good stories to be found within the setting. The Horus Heresy novels are actually surprisingly good for what is essentially "trash fiction." and I have yet to read one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books that I haven't enjoyed.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

it's beyond obvious that, in this case, women generally would be treated like second class citizens. Like what the fuck would you (not you specifically) expect them to do, shove gender equality in the middle of all the worse-than-medieval ideals, lack of education and so on?

I haven't seen anything to indicate that women are treated as second class citizens across the Imperium as a whole. The setting is very androcentric and there is a fair bit of sexualisation going on in some of the models and art but the Imperium doesn't really care what you have between your legs, everyone is treated equally badly.

 

[Versuvius]

It seems to be that the reasons some people hate it is also why some people love it. I personally love it. I love the games, i love the books and i certainly love the PnP RPGs. I also love the intentional crapsack Imperial aesthetic. Here is a bit of insight on the imperial tech from White Dwarf. If you do not like this, you won't like any of it. So go play something else and not bring up the good old "Stop liking what i don't like" arguments.

'What's interesting about the tanks of the 41st Millennium,' Dave [Andrews] says, leaning back in his chair and pointing to a nearby Leman Russ, 'is that they're science fiction vehicles, but unlike any you'll see elsewhere. Take the Imperial Guard tanks. In truth they share more in common with a tank from the interwar period of the 20th Century than they do a modern battle tank or anything "futuristic". They have curiously misshapen hulls, riveted armour plates and absolutely no aesthetic concession to the technological advances we have nowadays. Imperial Guard tanks don't even have proper, sloped armour, and that's quite deliberate. Their design spawns from the thought process of what a fundamentally "backwards" tank would look like 38,000 years in the future in a place where technological understanding has collapsed and innovation is outlawed. The Imperium is archaic and backwards, clinging to the remnants of incredible technologies such as plasma cannons and las-weapons. The image is so exciting and unusual because these misunderstood innovations are embedded in fighting vehicles that make a modern tank look like a technical marvel.'
- WD366

 

[Meight08]

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By the way, OP, reality is misogynistic. Women are simply, straight up, less fit for warfare on average. Disregarding context like this and wanting women to take part in 50% of everything irks me to no end.

Edit: Agreed with the guy above. From skimming. Sorry, I'm lazy.

Glad you agree with me, but I will have to disagree with your point here. Women may not be as fit for hand to hand combat that you see a fair portion of the W40K universe taking, so I understand where you are coming from, but just as there are positions men are more suited for, there are also roles women are more suited for in the military. For example, women make better spies (with the exception of truly misogynistic areas of the world) because it is generally easier for women to get in and out of places (in the civilized areas of the world). Women are more flexible and often smaller, meaning they would also make better snipers (or any other role that may require them to find small tight spots to hide in for extended periods of time).

Now as far as the Warhammer universe, I can see your point about gender inequality. I think this might be what women are raging about, but I honestly think that there is no reason for this rage. Books are about as fair a medium as you will get, and just as there are books that cater to women, there should be books that cater to men (other than playboy), but this is all covered in my previous post. I just wanted you to know that I a not completely against you in the context of W40K

My main point was context. If we're talking about a universe that is, aside from one light-hearted race, little more than war, destruction, poverty, disease, rape and pillage, despair, mindlessness, et cetera, it's beyond obvious that, in this case, women generally would be treated like second class citizens. Like what the fuck would you (not you specifically) expect them to do, shove gender equality in the middle of all the worse-than-medieval ideals, lack of education and so on?

I'll do one better. Even aside context, I don't think any form of entertainment should overarchingly conform to gender equality, or any other equality, just because it's the PC thing to do or because people might get offended. I don't think people have a right to be free from getting offended, I don't even think that's a good ideal. If you don't like something, ignore it and move on. We're not talking about a country people live in, or a workplace they work in. Call me when actual harm is being done.

It's not just me being a misogynist pig. I don't care if you portray men/white men/eastern europeans/whatever other demographic I'm a part of as a pile of shit (even literally, if you so desire). What I care about is freedom of expression without a quota of equality to fill. While we're at that, token characters piss me off too.

Actually woman aren't treated as second class citizens they are just used in different roles better suited to them, Like space nuns, snipers, Assasins, Cannon fodder

 

[O maestre]

you dont go into 40k for the story, you go for the over the top world setting, everything is ramped up to 11 and the spectacle itself is what appeals, everything is pushed to the extreme. there are no good guys only apathetic, evil and diabolical, the universe is so grimdark that to call it a dystopia is being to positive. the weapons, their sizes and fire power and the armies that wield them are ridiculous

there is nothing else that appeals to my sadistic inner child like the 40k universe, i expect carnage, death along with one-liners and uotes to make schwarzenegger blood chill, on a massive scale. seriously i do not think there is any other fiction that is as over the top with testosterone as the 40k universe and i love it to bits.

from dreadnaughts to daemons and bolters to chainswords there is little in the realm of sci-fi that has not been influenced by the imagery and themes of the 40k universe for better or for worse

 

[Doclector]

Hard to say, exactly.

For one thing, it's just kinda badass. To the point that it is a little immature at points, but I honestly don't mind it that much.

Also, I suspect it kinda appeases my pessimissm. It's like a future in which I was totally right about everything going to shit.

 

[Skeleon]

You need to learn more about the Salamanders, dude. Those are good guys in my book. Also, they like fire. So do I.
Anyway, the appeal is the same as there is to post-apocalyptic worlds like Fallout, to Zombie-apocalypse settings, to any other setting of despair, overwhelming odds but the glimmer of hope. If you don't understand that, then I have to assume you dislike a lot of fictional settings, especially numerous videogame settings.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Good thing I've said that I barely know anything about the universe. Just saying, it makes no sense crying about gender inequality in a universe as fucked as that.

OK, I slightly misunderstood your post then, I was focusing on the "second class citizens" part, which is not the case.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well if the child inside you is dead and rotting then this will be a hard universe to swallow, it's fantasy you see.
I know my sister shares the same sort of disgust for everything remotely imaginative, yet she enjoys the hell out of a good rape movie... and I will not ever understand why that might be.

Anyway Warhammer 40k is a grim space opera cartoon, mainly put together because some nerds wanted space D&D, if that isn't your thing then it just isn't.

 

[barbzilla]

My main point was context. If we're talking about a universe that is, aside from one light-hearted race, little more than war, destruction, poverty, disease, rape and pillage, despair, mindlessness, et cetera, it's beyond obvious that, in this case, women generally would be treated like second class citizens. Like what the fuck would you (not you specifically) expect them to do, shove gender equality in the middle of all the worse-than-medieval ideals, lack of education and so on?

I'll do one better. Even aside context, I don't think any form of entertainment should overarchingly conform to gender equality, or any other equality, just because it's the PC thing to do or because people might get offended. I don't think people have a right to be free from getting offended, I don't even think that's a good ideal. If you don't like something, ignore it and move on. We're not talking about a country people live in, or a workplace they work in. Call me when actual harm is being done.

It's not just me being a misogynist pig. I don't care if you portray men/white men/eastern europeans/whatever other demographic I'm a part of as a pile of shit (even literally, if you so desire). What I care about is freedom of expression without a quota of equality to fill. While we're at that, token characters piss me off too.

Well as I said in the previous post I agree with you in context to Warhammer, I thought you were saying that about all combat roles in reality. I was only pointing out that in our world women are equally if not more suited for certain combat roles.

As for gender equality in media, I don't think we we have to be equal in every single story/book/series, where I think we need equality is in representation. In books (unlike any other medium) women are equally represented. This does not mean they are equally represented in every book/story/series, it means they have a fair share of books aimed at pleasing them. If they don't like those books, there may be a reason for them. Some guys don't like books that pander to the male fantasy, and some women don't like books that pander to the female fantasy. My girlfriend is one of them, she can't stand romantic books/movies, she believes in true equality though. She believes that true equality lies in representation, not making the whole world PC.

In short if you don't like the kinds of books that pander to male power fantasies, fuck off and find the style of book you do like. Books have been written in every fashion under the sun, and I guarantee that you can find at least one that suits your fancy.

**Please note that the use of you is in general and not aimed at you in particular**
***The rule about you does not apply to the first paragraph, that is actually aimed at you**

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Being so ridiculous and over the top is kinda what makes the setting. It's all about different tastes I guess. The only times that I get annoyed with the setting is when the fanboys set to work, who are invariably Space Marines fans. This basically means that there will be some ridiculously over the top threat like the Tyranids, and the only people who can do anything about it are the Space fucking Marines, and all the other races can fuck off. As an Eldar fan, this gets a bit tiring.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I agree with Zhukov: 40K wallows in its setting because that's all it knows. It's its own trademark. If anyone were to shine a shred of hope or actual diplomacy in there, you'd lose the whole "grim dark" aspect of it.

People play Warhammer 40K precisely because it's childish, indulgent, turgid and doesn't know when to let up. The only source of comic relief in the entire property is with the Orks, which are in my opinion the most hilarious antagonists in a strategy game ever. It's sort of a weird dichotomy when you think about it: on one side you've got the ever-fighting Imperium of Man, and the other has the Orks, amongst other Xenos. The Orks are blunder-prone, their tech works through sheer luck, painting their stuff red makes them go faster, erecting banners with "WAAAUUGH!" written on them motivates them - everything is a gigantic parody of organized warfare, to these guys. It's hard not to feel sorry for them when your human zealots tear through them with Melta bolts.

Games Workshop is probably well aware of that, but it brings up an interesting dilemma. Either they mature and start suggesting that there might be an end to war at some point and consequently cause their entire structure to collapse - or they stay the course and stubbornly deny the fact that no society could ever function on a total and perpetual military-industrial complex.

Even the US has industries that don't cater to bullets, guns, weapons of mass destruction or other ways to end a guy's life. You've got a sense of literature, of culture - of a life outside of spending some time looking for a new boogieman to demonize. The Imperium, though?

Nope. Because if it doesn't service the indulgent teenage fantasy at the heart of it all, it's lame and doesn't deserve to be part of the material. Heck, some Imperium chapters are as progressive as the Imperium's military contingent is ever going to be, but which one ends up providing the bulk of campaign protagonists? The Blood Ravens. Of course.

 

[ramboondiea]

i always assumed the general appeal of the series is that its completely over the top, its got a techno punk feel and its campy as all hell, so people can see it has just wild enjoyment, cant say i like it all that much, played the thq game, twus al-right, but yeah.

 

[Nouw]

The great thing about Warhammer 40,000 is that you can take it as seriously as you want to. Likewise, you can take it as lightly as you want to. I love reading Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts series because as many have called it, it is 'Band of Brothers in WH40K.'

It'd be more accurate to call it Sharpe IN SPESS. So far the most popular 40k novels seem to be rip-offs of popular British novels the authors read as children/teenagers.

Call it whatever you like but it's still a novel of camaraderie between a unit of soldiers. Maybe Dan Abnett did draw inspiration from novels he read as children/teenagers but what's wrong with that? The trope, called Band of Brothers, is hardly exclusive to any genre anyway. Go read it for yourself. Arguably, it dates back to the Three Musketeers. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BandOfBrothers] The second most popular series, The Horus Heresy, is actually based on the Fall of Lucifer. And once again, I don't see a problem with that.