WB Announces "Metropolis" A Superman Prequel Series For Digital Streaming

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Casual Shinji said:
Samtemdo8 said:
After seeing Goku vs Superman in Death Battle (the first one), I want to see more of Superman doing that, Just for once give me more the Super than the Man
You do know that's what they've been doing for the last three movies, right? Superman just smashing shit, like he's the Hulk in tights.

I don't really understand what's leaving you wanting in that area. Superman actually being an engaging character a la All Star Superman is something we haven't seen in a movie since... ever.
1. Because beyond Man of Steel the action was cut too short for most of them for me, I mean the final battle in the first Avengers lasted pretty long.

2. Who says I only want movies like this, I also want an Animation of superman kicking ass, or 1 comic book that does.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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trunkage said:
Hawki said:
But I like Gotham. :(

(Well, at least season 1, haven't watched the show beyond that.)
I had to watch season 1 while playing a game. The logic of that show is... Well there isn't much. It hurt my brain when thinking about it. For season 2, they take any logic they had and threw it out the window. It was actually a much better experience. I heard it gets crazier, into comics crazy range.
As I said above, I'm current on the show and can confirm, shit gets wild. So far they've had Flamingo, Azrael, Ra's al Ghul, and freaking Solomon Grundy. I never would have thought I'd see Solomon Grundy on a screen of any size let alone a major network. Come to think of it, this seasons seems very Long Halloween inspired. Along with Grundy Sofia Falcone plays a prominent role in what's going on right now.

They just went on mid-season break and in March they are reintroducing their Joker. I know a lot of people fell off the show but as a big Batman fan this pushes a lot of my buttons.
 

Hawki

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Natemans said:
I don't even like Gotham and yet it has more of a plausible reason to exist than this or Krypton show does. Heck, even Smallville had a better reason to exist.
Actually, I like the idea of Krypton. Sci-fi drama? I mean, that's nothing special, but if we're dealing with falliable humanoid beings living in the last days of their world, dealing with inter-house/guild/something politics...that sounds fairly interesting to me. Far more interesting than Superman has ever appeared to me.

Or Supergirl, for that matter (saw Season 1 not too long ago and...yeah.)

Samtemdo8 said:
After seeing Goku vs Superman in Death Battle (the first one), I want to see more of Superman doing that, Just for once give me more the Super than the Man:

Doesn't that video go to show just how rediculously OP Supes is?

Goku is OP as well, but at least Goku became OP through effort. He had to constantly put in time and effort to improve himself. Supes did, what, stand in the sun for thirty years so he could become invincible?

Dragonball and Superman (the mythos) have a lot of the same problems for me, but Supes clocks those problems up to 11.

Casual Shinji said:
You do know that's what they've been doing for the last three movies, right? Superman just smashing shit, like he's the Hulk in tights.

I don't really understand what's leaving you wanting in that area. Superman actually being an engaging character a la All Star Superman is something we haven't seen in a movie since... ever.
Wait, what?

Man of Steel, Supes doesn't begin smashing until the second half of the movie - before then, he's actually a somewhat interesting character (he still is by the second), but MoS isn't an action flik until its second half. Batman v Superman? Superman's barely in it. He has the shakedown with Bruce and Doomsday, sure, but again, at the end of the movie. Justice League? That I'll grant you. It's telling that Supes is so OP that he can take on all of the League at the same time and win, and instantly wins against Steppenwolf. I honestly think the film would have been better without Supes in it because he robs the 'lesser mortals' of their own accomplishments. Why worry about team cohesion or vulnerability when the solution is "enter Superman code, you win?"
 

Veldel

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Hawki said:
But I like Gotham. :(

(Well, at least season 1, haven't watched the show beyond that.)
Gotham is a amazing show and deserves nothing but love post season 1
 

Casual Shinji

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Hawki said:
Wait, what?

Man of Steel, Supes doesn't begin smashing until the second half of the movie - before then, he's actually a somewhat interesting character (he still is by the second), but MoS isn't an action flik until its second half. Batman v Superman? Superman's barely in it. He has the shakedown with Bruce and Doomsday, sure, but again, at the end of the movie. Justice League? That I'll grant you. It's telling that Supes is so OP that he can take on all of the League at the same time and win, and instantly wins against Steppenwolf. I honestly think the film would have been better without Supes in it because he robs the 'lesser mortals' of their own accomplishments. Why worry about team cohesion or vulnerability when the solution is "enter Superman code, you win?"
When Superman is out there being Superman and doing Superman stuff, the majority of it consists of him destroying everything in his path with complete disregard for human safety. And the rest is him glaring and being mopey.

The recent movies operate under the assumption that because Superman is so powerful, we must therefor see to the fullest extend how destructive that power is. We never get to feel the joy of being (with) Superman in the Snyder movies. There's this scene in All-Star Superman, where Lois Lane has experienced having Superman's powers for a day, and as she feels those powers fade she comments on how she can no longer smell the trees in Canada, or hear the stars sing. That one line alone gives a better impression of Supes powers and character then anything in the Snyder movies combined.
 

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Casual Shinji said:
When Superman is out there being Superman and doing Superman stuff, the majority of it consists of him destroying everything in his path with complete disregard for human safety.
Um, where?

Casual Shinji said:
And the rest is him glaring and being mopey.
Imagine that, not knowing who or what you are for thirty years and being a bit beraved about that.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlINHSnUx9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBt8fqYTxLo

Casual Shinji said:
The recent movies operate under the assumption that because Superman is so powerful, we must therefor see to the fullest extend how destructive that power is.
Source needed.

Casual Shinji said:
We never get to feel the joy of being (with) Superman in the Snyder movies.
Speak for yourself.

MoS has its problems, but it's about the first time I could ever be invested in Supes, since it shows character conflict and falliability. There's a saying in writing that "conflict is the essence of drama." MoS succeeds in both physical and emotional conflict. The former because Supes is up against foes that can match him in strength, speed, and surpass him in experience. Emotional because it shows his own journey, and shows that there's actual stakes with actual consequences.
 

Casual Shinji

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Hawki said:
Casual Shinji said:
When Superman is out there being Superman and doing Superman stuff, the majority of it consists of him destroying everything in his path with complete disregard for human safety.
Um, where?
The scene where Zod is confronting Ma Kent, and then Supes, in stead of taking his mother and flying her out of there, goes for Zod, starts punching him and bulldozing him into a busy town street, even smashing through a gas station. Meanwhile leaving his mother with Zod's goons, like an idiot.

We also have Supes destroy Zod's last 'Krypton revival plan' ship, letting it crash into Metroplis instead of, oh I don't know, just flying it out there and crashing in a place that isn't heavily populated.

And then finally they fight in what's left of Metropolis, where Supes at no point tries to lure Zod out of the city to reduce further casualties. Nope, he just fights him right in the streets, in spitting distance of confused suvivors.

Casual Shinji said:
And the rest is him glaring and being mopey.
Imagine that, not knowing who or what you are for thirty years and being a bit beraved about that.
He does know who he is; he's Clark Kent. And he's isn't mopey because of that, but because apparently being a superhero and depended on by the people is a heavy burden. Like we haven't seen that before in a superhero movie.

Casual Shinji said:
We never get to feel the joy of being (with) Superman in the Snyder movies.
Speak for yourself.

MoS has its problems, but it's about the first time I could ever be invested in Supes, since it shows character conflict and falliability. There's a saying in writing that "conflict is the essence of drama." MoS succeeds in both physical and emotional conflict. The former because Supes is up against foes that can match him in strength, speed, and surpass him in experience. Emotional because it shows his own journey, and shows that there's actual stakes with actual consequences.
The closet Superman gets to being interesting in the Snyder movies is the scene at the truckstop, where we see him not engage a guy that's being a jerk to him. Because he knows he could kill him with just a flick of his pinky, so he needs to show dicipline. In that moment we can feel his frustration, but we also admire him for not resorting to violence. This is then instantly ruined by him completely wrecking the guy's truck, possibly destroying his livelihood, just for petty vengeance.

And that's the problem overall with Supes in the Snyder movies; he hardly ever shows restraint or dicipline. Even when he's flying away, he does with such force that it cracks the concrete.
 

Hawki

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Casual Shinji said:
The scene where Zod is confronting Ma Kent, and then Supes, in stead of taking his mother and flying her out of there, goes for Zod, starts punching him and bulldozing him into a busy town street, even smashing through a gas station. Meanwhile leaving his mother with Zod's goons, like an idiot.
That, I'll grant you. However, I do like it, in the sense that it shows just how much strength he has, and how he hasn't learnt restraint yet. He's been Superman for, what, 24 hours by this point?

Casual Shinji said:
We also have Supes destroy Zod's last 'Krypton revival plan' ship, letting it crash into Metroplis instead of, oh I don't know, just flying it out there and crashing in a place that isn't heavily populated.
In doing so, saving the world.

If you want to argue that Superman can do anything and everything at any time, sure - that's an issue. However, I don't have an issue with it - as bad as the ship crashing into Metropolis is, not destroying it would have far worse consequences.

Casual Shinji said:
And then finally they fight in what's left of Metropolis, where Supes at no point tries to lure Zod out of the city to reduce further casualties. Nope, he just fights him right in the streets, in spitting distance of confused suvivors.
Zod's stated that he's going to kill every human he can - your example is the equivalent of me facing a murder saying he's going to kill my family, then me running off hoping the murder tries to kill me instead. And again, Zod is Supes's equal (likely less strength, but far more training). This entire complaint rests on Supes not being even more super.

Casual Shinji said:
He does know who he is; he's Clark Kent. And he's isn't mopey because of that, but because apparently being a superhero and depended on by the people is a heavy burden. Like we haven't seen that before in a superhero movie.
No, he's a superhero for about 24 hours, and only the second half of the movie. He's mopey for the first half because of him not knowing who or what he is. He gets mopey in the second half because as soon as he does find out what he is, he discovers that aliens have come for him, and he doesn't know what to do (the church scene).

Also, in my experience, the whole "I'm a hero, awesome!" trope is far more common than the "heavy burden" trope. You can probably thank Marvel for that.

Casual Shinji said:
We never get to feel the joy of being (with) Superman in the Snyder movies.The closet Superman gets to being interesting in the Snyder movies is the scene at the truckstop, where we see him not engage a guy that's being a jerk to him. Because he knows he could kill him with just a flick of his pinky, so he needs to show dicipline. In that moment we can feel his frustration, but we also admire him for not resorting to violence. This is then instantly ruined by him completely wrecking the guy's truck, possibly destroying his livelihood, just for petty vengeance.
Yes, and? He gives into his frustration by destroying the truck.

I'm not condoning the act, and the scene could work either way, but if the movie is showing a Clark Kent who's falliable, who can't always master his emotions (and before donning the cape no less), then that sounds like a character that's more interesting who's a paragon 100% of the time who can do no wrong.

Casual Shinji said:
And that's the problem overall with Supes in the Snyder movies; he hardly ever shows restraint or dicipline. Even when he's flying away, he does with such force that it cracks the concrete.
BvS, yes. MoS, that's not an issue, given his lack of experience. I like the concrete cracking because it demonstrates just how powerful he is, and does so without having to devote dialogue - visual storytelling and all that.
 

Lupine

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Hawki said:
Casual Shinji said:
The scene where Zod is confronting Ma Kent, and then Supes, in stead of taking his mother and flying her out of there, goes for Zod, starts punching him and bulldozing him into a busy town street, even smashing through a gas station. Meanwhile leaving his mother with Zod's goons, like an idiot.
That, I'll grant you. However, I do like it, in the sense that it shows just how much strength he has, and how he hasn't learnt restraint yet. He's been Superman for, what, 24 hours by this point?
Not to be that guy, but he's had his powers his whole life almost at this point. So him being new to being Superman isn't the same as him being new to the powerset. Plus him not really thinking things through is sort of a hallmark of this particular version of Superman.

Also he wouldn't have needed to run off against Zod. At the beginning of their fight, he's capable of flight, Zod isn't. Him smashing into Zod at full speed and pulling him into space means that Zod wouldn't have been able to resist until later when he gained flight as a power. And that's not even taking into account things like his speed in flight where we saw him earlier go from the Arctic to Africa in minutes. Him staying in the city doesn't make a whole lot of sense and even when they tried to course correct in BvS they did it in the laziest fashion possible. "This place is abandoned" instead of making it a part of the fight that they're trying to minimize damage. Which is worse because they decided to make it a plot point with Bruce and the beginning of the film.
 

Hawki

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Lupine said:
Not to be that guy, but he's had his powers his whole life almost at this point. So him being new to being Superman isn't the same as him being new to the powerset. Plus him not really thinking things through is sort of a hallmark of this particular version of Superman.
Okay, fine, he's had the powers, but he's never had to use them aside from mundane tasks (well, mundane by his standards at least), and has never had to fight against a foe that's effectively his equal in strength, and his superior when it comes to experience. Yes, him ploughing through with Zod is a bone-headed move, but I'm fine with a character being falliable. Generally speaking, a character without flaws generally isn't a good character.

(Though Supes is generally a character without flaws as far as I can tell, so go figure.)

Also he wouldn't have needed to run off against Zod. At the beginning of their fight, he's capable of flight, Zod isn't. Him smashing into Zod at full speed and pulling him into space means that Zod wouldn't have been able to resist until later when he gained flight as a power.
Okay, sure, if he get get Zod in a hold, and keep that hold long enough to break free of Earth's gravity. That's quite a few "ifs" - even if Zod can't fly immediately, again, nearly equal strength, and far greater experience. Throughout the fight, Supes is struggling for a lot of it. Even him getting Zod in the headlock, Zod could have easily broken free if he wanted to (probably).

And that's not even taking into account things like his speed in flight where we saw him earlier go from the Arctic to Africa in minutes.
Minutes if the flight sequence takes place in real time rather than being a montage.

Even then, speed isn't the issue, strength is. Supes has to carry Zod, who can fight back, break free, etc.

Again, the arguments seem to be that Supes should be able to do anything, should be infalliable, should be able to sort out any problem with no drawbacks or consequences whatsoever. If people want that, fine - just don't expect many people to be invested in a Gary Stu.

Him staying in the city doesn't make a whole lot of sense and even when they tried to course correct in BvS they did it in the laziest fashion possible. "This place is abandoned" instead of making it a part of the fight that they're trying to minimize damage. Which is worse because they decided to make it a plot point with Bruce and the beginning of the film.
I wouldn't call it lazy per se, I'd call it misguided - it wants to have its cake and eat it, to have widespread destruction without the inconvenience of innocents dying. If anything, Justice League is even more lazy in this, because of course the fate of the world is going to rest in a nearly uninhabited area where collateral damage doesn't mean anything. At least with the Avengers there was actual consequences to an alien invasion in New York.

And lest anyone think otherwise, I don't go into fictional works relishing death and destruction, but if you want me to take things seriously, I do expect there to be serious consequences. If aliens invade Earth with the intent of colonizing it (and by extension, killing every human as a byproduct), excuse me if I find it jarring that some want this plot point to be consequence free. Even in more lighthearted material (e.g. Doctor Who), it's demonstrated that the Doctor, for all his intelligence, can't save everyone, on the many occasions that aliens invade Earth.

TBH, the Doctor comes off as a more intelligent version of Superman in that he is falliable, physically vulnerable, and can't get a 100% success rate, while also being a humanoid alien that lives among us lowly mortals, but that's another issue.
 

Kyrian007

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I suppose this show could work... but I'm not sure its necessary. It almost sounds like someone around WB had a script for a show they liked, so they just plugged a couple of Superman characters into it and handed it off to DC. "Intrepid reporter joins up with tech-millionaire to investigate weird shit" doesn't sound like a terrible premise for a show... weirder crap has been made into good shows. But why connect it to Superman... without Superman? What's the point of that?

I know the answer, it has a built in audience. But something that's good will attract an audience if you give it some time and push. Attaching some random show to an already existing audience says to me they don't have faith the show will develop its own audience. Which doesn't really make me want to start watching it. Especially if I have to buy ANOTHER streaming service just to watch.

The comparison to Gotham doesn't sound right to me. Gotham is a show specifically about Batman's world. This sounds more like a sci-fi procedural like Fringe, The X-Files, or even Kolchak. If they were just making a new IP sci-fi procedural... I'd be more interested.
 

Casual Shinji

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Hawki said:
Casual Shinji said:
We also have Supes destroy Zod's last 'Krypton revival plan' ship, letting it crash into Metroplis instead of, oh I don't know, just flying it out there and crashing in a place that isn't heavily populated.
In doing so, saving the world.

If you want to argue that Superman can do anything and everything at any time, sure - that's an issue. However, I don't have an issue with it - as bad as the ship crashing into Metropolis is, not destroying it would have far worse consequences.
Yeah, but by that logic he could also destroy a small nation, or even the U.S. when fighting a bad guy, if it meant saving the world. It's not like that ship was seconds away from destroying the world, it was just flying around, all of Zod's men were dead, the world engine was rendered useless, and Zod himself was too bewildered in that moment to try anything. Supes could've just exerted a little pressure on the outside of the ship, changed its trajectory, and have it crash into the ocean.

The only reason Supes destroyed that ship how he did is because it looks cool watching it get zapped and crash into buildings. Because Zack Snyder just likes watching things smash and go boom.

Casual Shinji said:
And then finally they fight in what's left of Metropolis, where Supes at no point tries to lure Zod out of the city to reduce further casualties. Nope, he just fights him right in the streets, in spitting distance of confused suvivors.
Zod's stated that he's going to kill every human he can - your example is the equivalent of me facing a murder saying he's going to kill my family, then me running off hoping the murder tries to kill me instead. And again, Zod is Supes's equal (likely less strength, but far more training). This entire complaint rests on Supes not being even more super.
Supes doesn't attempt to restrain him, or knock him out of Metropolis/grab him and fly him out of Metropoplis, doesn't try to mitigate the amount of destruction his and Zod's actions are causing, or try to shield other people from danger. There's a scene where Zod throws a gas tanker and Supes, which slowly sides along the road toward him. And instead of stopping it, he casually glides out of its path to let it crash and explode into the building behind him.

Again, every action is designed so that the movie can show us as much destruction as possible. Which isn't what Superman is about.
Casual Shinji said:
We never get to feel the joy of being (with) Superman in the Snyder movies.The closet Superman gets to being interesting in the Snyder movies is the scene at the truckstop, where we see him not engage a guy that's being a jerk to him. Because he knows he could kill him with just a flick of his pinky, so he needs to show dicipline. In that moment we can feel his frustration, but we also admire him for not resorting to violence. This is then instantly ruined by him completely wrecking the guy's truck, possibly destroying his livelihood, just for petty vengeance.
Yes, and? He gives into his frustration by destroying the truck.

I'm not condoning the act, and the scene could work either way, but if the movie is showing a Clark Kent who's falliable, who can't always master his emotions (and before donning the cape no less), then that sounds like a character that's more interesting who's a paragon 100% of the time who can do no wrong.
It devalues the growth we're supposed to see him undertake in that moment. That moment itself is already interesting, because it puts us in Supes' shoes, and creates an irony to his character; He's the most powerful being in the galaxy, yet this prevents him from standing up for himself. This is can then carry over later in the film to him donning the cape and it symbolizing his dicipline in using his powers to protect first and foremost, not cause mayhem and destruction. But then the rest of the film clearly shows it's really not interested in that at all.

Casual Shinji said:
And that's the problem overall with Supes in the Snyder movies; he hardly ever shows restraint or dicipline. Even when he's flying away, he does with such force that it cracks the concrete.
BvS, yes. MoS, that's not an issue, given his lack of experience. I like the concrete cracking because it demonstrates just how powerful he is, and does so without having to devote dialogue - visual storytelling and all that.
Yes, but that's seemingly the only way the movies know how to demonstrate that he's Superman.

It's similar to how a lot of movies/shows depict magic. In stead of showing us the inner workings and methods behind manipulating the cosmos, it usually just resorts to someone shooting a bolt of lightning or a fireball.
 

immortalfrieza

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Kenbo Slice said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Zzzzzz

Wake me up with a Superman fighitng Giant Monsters and Superpowered Villains equal to him.
The most interesting Superman stories aren't him fighting giant monsters and overpowered villains. All the best stories deal with his humanity and emotions. You are the reason people think Superman is a boring character.
No, the reason people think Superman is a boring character is because he's a boring character. The problem with Superman is that he was created in a time when Superheroes weren't even really a thing in fiction, before most people alive today were even born and back when the kind of crappy writing that created and sustained the character wasn't so noticeable. Superman was among the first superheroes, and as a result many people aren't able to see the immense flaws in the character and even see him as the best superhero in comics, deeply ingrained nostalgia. Superman is such a constant presence in the world of Superheroes it's become really difficult for a lot of people to even notice how terrible of a superhero he actually is. As a result of his long history he is just about everything a writer could possibly get wrong with writing a superhero all at once without making him a Designated Hero who is actually an evil dick the story wants us to think is good guy. Superman is a superhero so insanely overpowered that they have to bring in cheap plot devices like Kryptonite (another thing the writers aren't even remotely consistent about) or have him briefly lose his powers just to be able to present any sort of challenge against him he couldn't beat with a flick of his finger in 99 out of a 100 storylines. Even when he does go up against something that might beat him, instead of keeping his powers consistent and having him beat it through intelligence and tactical planning like they should the vast majority of the time the writers just jack up the abilities he already has even more and/or give him new powers to match.

There is no tension involved with anything that happens because Superman will just magically become better and beat every villain put up against him and save everyone if he wasn't already able to do to begin with, and he won't even have to work to achieve that. On the other end of spectrum, Superman is a superhero who has no problems that last more than a single issue other than "this woman I work with won't notice me when I don't have a big S on my chest." It's not like he has financial problems, or difficult relatives, or any actual difficulty balancing his life as a superhero with his normal life, or anything else that could be considered remotely relatable. In fact, a lot of stories don't even involve him much, they mostly involve someone like Lois or Jimmy or whoever going off to do something stupid like try and sneak into a heavily guarded military base or run right up to a big monster to take pictures and have Superman show up to save their butts at the last second from their own stupidity. It doesn't help at all that the vast majority of Superman's supporting cast is all but completely useless for actually assisting him being a superhero and mostly just exist to have someone for the writers to danger because Superman himself is simply far too powerful to do that without him losing those powers somehow or bringing in his weakness. Having someone helpless to save happens with all other superheroes, but unlike Superman most of them are written well enough, consistently enough, and with villains at their own level, which allows them be threatened without needing someone helpless to save and thus making it much much more tense when that same thing happens with those superheroes than it ever could be with Superman. All it really comes down to is passing the buck because writers are pathologically incapable of writing Superman to be interesting.
 

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Casual Shinji said:
Yeah, but by that logic he could also destroy a small nation, or even the U.S. when fighting a bad guy, if it meant saving the world.
So...the US is more important than the world?

I jest, but this isn't an argument. Any nation in the world isn't going to be as important as the world itself. Hard math dictates it, as awful as that might be. So, if saving the world requires some collateral damage...sorry, I'd rather the world be saved.

Casual Shinji said:
It's not like that ship was seconds away from destroying the world, it was just flying around, all of Zod's men were dead, the world engine was rendered useless, and Zod himself was too bewildered in that moment to try anything. Supes could've just exerted a little pressure on the outside of the ship, changed its trajectory, and have it crash into the ocean.
That ship was in pursuit of a human ship that was trying to stop the world engine flattening Metropolis. Supes doesn't know Zod's men are dead. If Zod suits up, he can take Supes. Pushing the ship might work, but in that time, it could shoot down the US ship, not to mention that the kryptonian craft are equipped with weaponry that's powerful enough to send Supes sprawling due to their kinetic impact.

This is getting into coulda-woulda-shoulda. In hindsight, it's easy to make better calls, but in the heat of the moment, that's not always an option.

Casual Shinji said:
The only reason Supes destroyed that ship how he did is because it looks cool watching it get zapped and crash into buildings. Because Zack Snyder just likes watching things smash and go boom.
Or, it's to show the scale and destruction of an alien invasion, that Superman isn't infalliable, and that while you can save the world, you can't save everyone in it?

Casual Shinji said:
Supes doesn't attempt to restrain him, or knock him out of Metropolis/grab him and fly him out of Metropoplis, doesn't try to mitigate the amount of destruction his and Zod's actions are causing, or try to shield other people from danger. There's a scene where Zod throws a gas tanker and Supes, which slowly sides along the road toward him. And instead of stopping it, he casually glides out of its path to let it crash and explode into the building behind him.

Again, every action is designed so that the movie can show us as much destruction as possible. Which isn't what Superman is about.
Again with this argument.

FFS, look at Zod. Supes is barely able to hold his own against him. For a lot of the fight, he isn't holding his own, and argubaly the only reason he wins is because Zod doesn't try to get out of the headlock. So, in the midst of someone who's practically your equal, your argument is...Supes isn't better. He can barely attempt to do any of these things, because he can barely do anything to Zod at all. The tanker? Sure, fair enough, if Supes wants to take the blast himself, and leave himself vulnerable.

Also, the idea of every action being designed to show us as much destruction as possible...no. Not really. The destruction in MoS has weight and gravitas behind it - there's consequences to it. BvS, in contrast, does have destruction for the sake of destruction, namely the fight with Doomsday. The port is levelled, but it's bereft of actual impact, because all that's being destroyed is some abandoned structures.

Casual Shinji said:
We never get to feel the joy of being (with) Superman in the Snyder It devalues the growth we're supposed to see him undertake in that moment. That moment itself is already interesting, because it puts us in Supes' shoes, and creates an irony to his character; He's the most powerful being in the galaxy, yet this prevents him from standing up for himself. This is can then carry over later in the film to him donning the cape and it symbolizing his dicipline in using his powers to protect first and foremost, not cause mayhem and destruction. But then the rest of the film clearly shows it's really not interested in that at all.
This is early in the film - he's at the start of his character arc, so there's no character growth to devalue. If he did it at the end of the movie, then yes, it would derail his character growth. Here, it's understandable, in terms of characterization and plot structure. Not condonable, but understandable.

Casual Shinji said:
Yes, but that's seemingly the only way the movies know how to demonstrate that he's Superman.
Got the suit, got the backstory, got the abilities, saves the people, saves the world, etc.

Casual Shinji said:
It's similar to how a lot of movies/shows depict magic. In stead of showing us the inner workings and methods behind manipulating the cosmos, it usually just resorts to someone shooting a bolt of lightning or a fireball.
How's that an issue?

The average movie is going to run 90-120 minutes. If you're going to have a film with magic, then ask yourself - how important is it to describe how the magic works? Books can do this better because they can pack in far more detail, and don't have a 'running time', whereas in films, the expectation is that you're going to watch it in one go. If it isn't relevant to the plot as to how magic works, don't waste your time with it. Or at least, don't spend time explaining what doesn't need to be explained when you could devote that time to more important aspects (e.g. character development).
 

Casual Shinji

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Hawki said:
So...the US is more important than the world?

I jest, but this isn't an argument. Any nation in the world isn't going to be as important as the world itself. Hard math dictates it, as awful as that might be. So, if saving the world requires some collateral damage...sorry, I'd rather the world be saved.
My point is that Superman operating under the mentality that it's okay to wreck cities and putting people in harms way, possibly killing them, as long as he saves the planet is kind of a bad one, and not very fitting for the character.
That ship was in pursuit of a human ship that was trying to stop the world engine flattening Metropolis. Supes doesn't know Zod's men are dead. If Zod suits up, he can take Supes. Pushing the ship might work, but in that time, it could shoot down the US ship, not to mention that the kryptonian craft are equipped with weaponry that's powerful enough to send Supes sprawling due to their kinetic impact.

This is getting into coulda-woulda-shoulda. In hindsight, it's easy to make better calls, but in the heat of the moment, that's not always an option.
The world engine was already out of commission by that point since Supes busted the one on the other side of the planet. That ship posed very little threat other then crashing into Metropolis, which happens anyway thanks to Supes.

Casual Shinji said:
The only reason Supes destroyed that ship how he did is because it looks cool watching it get zapped and crash into buildings. Because Zack Snyder just likes watching things smash and go boom.
Or, it's to show the scale and destruction of an alien invasion, that Superman isn't infalliable, and that while you can save the world, you can't save everyone in it?
That was already thoroughly depicted by the world engine smushing Metropolis. That crash was just there as a money shot.

Casual Shinji said:
Supes doesn't attempt to restrain him, or knock him out of Metropolis/grab him and fly him out of Metropoplis, doesn't try to mitigate the amount of destruction his and Zod's actions are causing, or try to shield other people from danger. There's a scene where Zod throws a gas tanker and Supes, which slowly sides along the road toward him. And instead of stopping it, he casually glides out of its path to let it crash and explode into the building behind him.

Again, every action is designed so that the movie can show us as much destruction as possible. Which isn't what Superman is about.
Again with this argument.

FFS, look at Zod. Supes is barely able to hold his own against him. For a lot of the fight, he isn't holding his own, and argubaly the only reason he wins is because Zod doesn't try to get out of the headlock. So, in the midst of someone who's practically your equal, your argument is...Supes isn't better. He can barely attempt to do any of these things, because he can barely do anything to Zod at all. The tanker? Sure, fair enough, if Supes wants to take the blast himself, and leave himself vulnerable.

Also, the idea of every action being designed to show us as much destruction as possible...no. Not really. The destruction in MoS has weight and gravitas behind it - there's consequences to it. BvS, in contrast, does have destruction for the sake of destruction, namely the fight with Doomsday. The port is levelled, but it's bereft of actual impact, because all that's being destroyed is some abandoned structures.
That's because it's a good argument. It's not about whether Supes CAN get him out of Metroplis, but that we don't even see him try AT ALL. Watching him try to spare the citizens of Metropolis any further grief would actually make the fight more engaging and Superman more heroic.

And we really don't see Superman struggle much against Zod. All we see is the two of them bashing into one another without leaving a scratch on themselves. There's not one moment where we see Superman genuinely getting injured. So on that front the fight is actually pretty boring.
Casual Shinji said:
Yes, but that's seemingly the only way the movies know how to demonstrate that he's Superman.
Got the suit, got the backstory, got the abilities, saves the people, saves the world, etc.
That is the most surface level way of doing it.

Casual Shinji said:
It's similar to how a lot of movies/shows depict magic. In stead of showing us the inner workings and methods behind manipulating the cosmos, it usually just resorts to someone shooting a bolt of lightning or a fireball.
How's that an issue?

The average movie is going to run 90-120 minutes. If you're going to have a film with magic, then ask yourself - how important is it to describe how the magic works? Books can do this better because they can pack in far more detail, and don't have a 'running time', whereas in films, the expectation is that you're going to watch it in one go. If it isn't relevant to the plot as to how magic works, don't waste your time with it. Or at least, don't spend time explaining what doesn't need to be explained when you could devote that time to more important aspects (e.g. character development).
Remember that line I quoted from Lois Lane in All-Star Superman? That was just one line, and it did wonders to give you an idea of what it's like to be Superman. There's another scene where we see Superman fly into space and revel in the fact that he can do that, and just casually chill on the Moon and gaze upon the Earth.

It doesn't need to be a codex worth of exposition, you can easily do this quickly and visually.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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immortalfrieza said:
Kenbo Slice said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Zzzzzz

Wake me up with a Superman fighitng Giant Monsters and Superpowered Villains equal to him.
The most interesting Superman stories aren't him fighting giant monsters and overpowered villains. All the best stories deal with his humanity and emotions. You are the reason people think Superman is a boring character.
No, the reason people think Superman is a boring character is because he's a boring character. The problem with Superman is that he was created in a time when Superheroes weren't even really a thing in fiction, before most people alive today were even born and back when the kind of crappy writing that created and sustained the character wasn't so noticeable. Superman was among the first superheroes, and as a result many people aren't able to see the immense flaws in the character and even see him as the best superhero in comics, deeply ingrained nostalgia. Superman is such a constant presence in the world of Superheroes it's become really difficult for a lot of people to even notice how terrible of a superhero he actually is. As a result of his long history he is just about everything a writer could possibly get wrong with writing a superhero all at once without making him a Designated Hero who is actually an evil dick the story wants us to think is good guy. Superman is a superhero so insanely overpowered that they have to bring in cheap plot devices like Kryptonite (another thing the writers aren't even remotely consistent about) or have him briefly lose his powers just to be able to present any sort of challenge against him he couldn't beat with a flick of his finger in 99 out of a 100 storylines. Even when he does go up against something that might beat him, instead of keeping his powers consistent and having him beat it through intelligence and tactical planning like they should the vast majority of the time the writers just jack up the abilities he already has even more and/or give him new powers to match.

There is no tension involved with anything that happens because Superman will just magically become better and beat every villain put up against him and save everyone if he wasn't already able to do to begin with, and he won't even have to work to achieve that. On the other end of spectrum, Superman is a superhero who has no problems that last more than a single issue other than "this woman I work with won't notice me when I don't have a big S on my chest." It's not like he has financial problems, or difficult relatives, or any actual difficulty balancing his life as a superhero with his normal life, or anything else that could be considered remotely relatable. In fact, a lot of stories don't even involve him much, they mostly involve someone like Lois or Jimmy or whoever going off to do something stupid like try and sneak into a heavily guarded military base or run right up to a big monster to take pictures and have Superman show up to save their butts at the last second from their own stupidity. It doesn't help at all that the vast majority of Superman's supporting cast is all but completely useless for actually assisting him being a superhero and mostly just exist to have someone for the writers to danger because Superman himself is simply far too powerful to do that without him losing those powers somehow or bringing in his weakness. Having someone helpless to save happens with all other superheroes, but unlike Superman most of them are written well enough, consistently enough, and with villains at their own level, which allows them be threatened without needing someone helpless to save and thus making it much much more tense when that same thing happens with those superheroes than it ever could be with Superman. All it really comes down to is passing the buck because writers are pathologically incapable of writing Superman to be interesting.
Is it that hard to simply make Superman just fly, have heat vision/Ice Breath, and strong enough to lift a truck, but not move and destroy whole planets?

I am not asking for Superman to be God here :p
 

PapaGreg096

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immortalfrieza said:
Superman is a superhero so insanely overpowered that they have to bring in cheap plot devices like Kryptonite (another thing the writers aren't even remotely consistent about) or have him briefly lose his powers just to be able to present any sort of challenge against him he couldn't beat with a flick of his finger in 99 out of a 100 storylines. Even when he does go up against something that might beat him, instead of keeping his powers consistent and having him beat it through intelligence and tactical planning like they should the vast majority of the time the writers just jack up the abilities he already has even more and/or give him new powers to match.
1. He is also vunerable to magic so if some wizard turned him into steak he will be turned into steak
2. Here are 15 people who beat Superman, https://www.cbr.com/not-so-super-15-people-who-have-defeated-superman/. Not really OP

immortalfrieza said:
There is no tension involved with anything that happens because Superman will just magically become better and beat every villain put up against him and save everyone if he wasn't already able to do to begin with, and he won't even have to work to achieve that. On the other end of spectrum, Superman is a superhero who has no problems that last more than a single issue other than "this woman I work with won't notice me when I don't have a big S on my chest." It's not like he has financial problems, or difficult relatives, or any actual difficulty balancing his life as a superhero with his normal life, or anything else that could be considered remotely relatable.
You're thinking of Goku not Superman, sometimes when Superman has problems beating someone he either asks for help or tries a new strategy to defeat them.Also there are a lot of problems Superman has, whether or not he can save everyone, his krypton ancestry, self control, people/his family dying from an attack, etc


immortalfrieza said:
In fact, a lot of stories don't even involve him much, they mostly involve someone like Lois or Jimmy or whoever going off to do something stupid like try and sneak into a heavily guarded military base or run right up to a big monster to take pictures and have Superman show up to save their butts at the last second from their own stupidity. It doesn't help at all that the vast majority of Superman's supporting cast is all but completely useless for actually assisting him being a superhero and mostly just exist to have someone for the writers to danger because Superman himself is simply far too powerful to do that without him losing those powers somehow or bringing in his weakness. Having someone helpless to save happens with all other superheroes, but unlike Superman most of them are written well enough, consistently enough, and with villains at their own level, which allows them be threatened without needing someone helpless to save and thus making it much much more tense when that same thing happens with those superheroes than it ever could be with Superman. All it really comes down to is passing the buck because writers are pathologically incapable of writing Superman to be interesting.
Well there was also the story where he used his journalism skills to save a man from execution in the animated series, going through various of conspiracy, multiverse threats and alien attacks, and etc. Like pick up any Superman book and you would this is not the case.
 

immortalfrieza

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Samtemdo8 said:
Is it that hard to simply make Superman just fly, have heat vision/Ice Breath, and strong enough to lift a truck, but not move and destroy whole planets?

I am not asking for Superman to be God here :p
Superman is simply the Mary Sue of Superheroes. Superman was already ridiculously powerful when he was first created, then as the decades went by and those who grew up reading Superman comics became his writers they made him even more massively powerful because they loved him so much... despite how horrifically badly written a character he is.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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immortalfrieza said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Is it that hard to simply make Superman just fly, have heat vision/Ice Breath, and strong enough to lift a truck, but not move and destroy whole planets?

I am not asking for Superman to be God here :p
Superman is simply the Mary Sue of Superheroes. Superman was already ridiculously powerful when he was first created, then as the decades went by and those who grew up reading Superman comics became his writers they made him even more massively powerful because they loved him so much... despite how horrifically badly written a character he is.
Thats not really answering my question...