We should forgive Bioware.

TheCommanders

ohmygodimonfire
Nov 30, 2011
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This is why you always take things on a case by case basis. If I think the next Bioware RPG is worth my time, I will get it, otherwise I won't. What they've done before doesn't really effect that. However, it can allow some semblance of prediction as to what might be coming but I'm always open to being surprised.
 

TheDoctor455

Friendly Neighborhood Time Lord
Apr 1, 2009
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Hmm... with ME3 I think I have somewhat more call to be resentful of the endings (even after the EC) than some people.

Why?
Because I wrote a 20-page paper on the series... mainly ME1...
where I discussed and analyzed what I thought one of the key themes of the series was...
"uniting in spite of differences"... the endings for ME3, yes, all of them, even the new one...
betray that theme, and the Starchild's mere existence turns ME1 into a giant plothole.

I submitted that paper to a university-level class and got an A on it... in fact, my professor told me in an email that she wished she could give me a better than perfect score on it. I also, obviously, got an A in the class.

Sounds good right?

Well... as I mentioned a bit ago... all of ME3's endings muck things up so badly that my paper is at least irrelevant (with the destruction of the mass relays, one of my key arguments is destroyed... and rebuilding them doesn't help things at all), and at worst, flat-out wrong because I was giving Bioware too much credit.

Which in turn means that I at least partially don't feel that A I got was fully earned. Nothing I can do about it now, the class was 2 years ago when ME2 had just come out.

So, thanks Bioware, you managed to at least partially sully the english degree I just earned.
 

James Billingham

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Jul 22, 2011
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For what its worth I did enjoy mass effect 3 and I give it an 8.5/10. The ending was unbelievably bad but it was just 5 min of the game.
 

mattttherman3

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Dec 16, 2008
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Well, because of extended cut, ME3 is the best game ever made, so forgiven for that. DA2 is pretty much the laziest designed game they have ever made, one city for everything is a no no, not to mention you kill all the bandits on that beach 12 times and they keep coming back. If DA3 is the same, I won't be getting it.
 

Mikeyfell

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Aug 24, 2010
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shrekfan246 said:
and however cheap or like a cop-out it may have seemed, they did at least attempt to give explanations to things like Anderson abandoning his position and giving it to Udina so in the end it wasn't really a big deal for me.
Hold on....Wait... What?
When did they do this. I played 6 times and there wasn't a single word uttered about why Anderson gave up the seat. (He mentioned that he used to be a councilor once but he never said why he gave it up)

When, how, or where did you find this explanation?

Really, I suppose it all does seem to boil down to you getting more invested in it than I do. I love a decent story in a game, but I'm more concerned with having fun than experiencing a story. The story can contribute to that fun factor, sure, after all I don't think I would've enjoyed Portal 2 nearly as much as I did if it were entirely just about portal-platforming. But the story isn't really why I'm playing the game. Which might seem a bit hypocritical, considering how often I praise the Metal Gear Solid series. But even then, while the stories of those games are a large part of why I enjoy them so much, the bigger reason is because I find the stealth-action gameplay to be immensely fun and satisfying.

EDIT: I may have phrased that last bit a little poorly... I'm not implying you don't play a game to have fun, so please don't misconstrue that as what I'm saying. I'm saying that I think I don't get as much enjoyment out of an intricate story as it appears that you do.
No, it's fine I do play games to experience the story. (Experiencing the story is how I have fun in a game) (to me the only game that would be just as much fun with out the story element is Mirror's Edge) Gameplay can be used to convey and enhance the story element and that's the case in most of the games I like. For me an ideal game is probably 60% story 40% gameplay or more. So ret-cons or bad writing or bad voice acting, bother me a lot more than wonky mechanics. That's why I think it sucks so much that Cut scenes are going extinct.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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Mikeyfell said:
Hold on....Wait... What?
When did they do this. I played 6 times and there wasn't a single word uttered about why Anderson gave up the seat. (He mentioned that he used to be a councilor once but he never said why he gave it up)

When, how, or where did you find this explanation?
Well, I could very well be wrong because it's been three and a half months since I played the game, but I distinctly remember either hearing or reading that Anderson never liked his position on the council, so he resigned.

No, it's fine I do play games to experience the story. (Experiencing the story is how I have fun in a game) (to me the only game that would be just as much fun with out the story element is Mirror's Edge) Gameplay can be used to convey and enhance the story element and that's the case in most of the games I like. For me an ideal game is probably 60% story 40% gameplay or more. So ret-cons or bad writing or bad voice acting, bother me a lot more than wonky mechanics. That's why I think it sucks so much that Cut scenes are going extinct.
All right, so I think we've discovered the key difference between how I enjoyed Mass Effect 3 and how you didn't, then. :D
 

White_Lama

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Feb 23, 2011
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Granted the only Bioware games I've played are the Mass Effect series, but they haven't done anything wrong in those games to warrant me forgiving them.

I'm one of the few that didn't go apeshit about the ending to ME3.
 

xPrometheusx

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Aug 9, 2011
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I swore off Bioware for the same reason I swore off DICE games and Infinity Ward. Good developers. Terrible publishers. (IW being Activision)
 

Kikyoo

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Apr 16, 2008
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The big problem I have with your analogy with the movies, is the movies were all made by different people. Bio ware is a game company so you have mostly the same people working on the same kinda games. All the movies you listed were all made by different people. And when you look at it in that light, swearing off a movie studio because the direction they generally are going does not seem positive to you seems perfectly reasonable to me. For me Bioware stuff was never stellar to begin with, any dip in the quality is reason enough for me to view whatever they release next under scrutiny and under a microscope before I will even consider getting it. And also for the record The Old Republic was a much more massive failure for me than Dragon Age 2, or Mass Effect 3.
 

Lawlhat

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Mar 17, 2009
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I thought DA2 was.... okay. A couple of the characters were memorable, and I think I got my money out of it.

Mass Effect 3 was a fun game, and I decided I wouldn't let a bad ending ruin that for me. I still like it, just not as much as the previous two.

Keep in mind, though, that I came from other genres to RPGs pretty recently, with Oblivion being the first RPG I ever played, and DA:O being the first RPG I ever finished (it took me a long time to finally give Oblivion the time to stick), so I think what I enjoy differs a lot from what people who played lots of RPGs back from 10-20 years ago do.
 

Mikeyfell

Elite Member
Aug 24, 2010
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shrekfan246 said:
Mikeyfell said:
Hold on....Wait... What?
When did they do this. I played 6 times and there wasn't a single word uttered about why Anderson gave up the seat. (He mentioned that he used to be a councilor once but he never said why he gave it up)

When, how, or where did you find this explanation?
Well, I could very well be wrong because it's been three and a half months since I played the game, but I distinctly remember either hearing or reading that Anderson never liked his position on the council, so he resigned.
It was never a secrete that he wasn't happy with the job but I don't think they ever gave a reason why he quit. If they did try to explain it I would have been a little more forgiving to that plot point. But to my knowledge it was never even hand waived.

No, it's fine I do play games to experience the story. (Experiencing the story is how I have fun in a game) (to me the only game that would be just as much fun with out the story element is Mirror's Edge) Gameplay can be used to convey and enhance the story element and that's the case in most of the games I like. For me an ideal game is probably 60% story 40% gameplay or more. So ret-cons or bad writing or bad voice acting, bother me a lot more than wonky mechanics. That's why I think it sucks so much that Cut scenes are going extinct.
All right, so I think we've discovered the key difference between how I enjoyed Mass Effect 3 and how you didn't, then. :D
Yay, now let us put this unpleasantness behind us and I'll go back to imagining a world where Mass Effect 3 was better and everyone at Bioware celebrated a job well done by never making another game ever again
 

alphamalet

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Nov 29, 2011
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Welcome to how fickle gamers are. Squaresoft has an even better history of games than Bioware, but then Squaresoft, like Bioware, merged with another company, put out about 3 games the fan deem of lesser quality, and people want to see Square-Enix burn.

As far as Bioware goes, no I'm not going to forgive them. Dragon Age is one of the only WRPGs I've ever liked. They took a shit on the franchise, and took my money in the process. No, I'm not ready to forgive them.
 

Emperor Nat

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Jun 15, 2011
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Bioware is still riding a wave of good-feeling from me because it made Neverwinter Nights, a game which I've been playing throughout most of my childhood and adolescence, and still return to on occasion.

That said, I'm relatively indifferent to their new controversy. I didn't play Dragon Age 2, and I think that the first two Mass Effect games are good enough to stand out on their own even if you didn't like 3.

So overall, I think they deserve another chance. As a studio they've made some great stuff, and I think they should get another go at making something great.

Edit: Wait... I just remembered Bioware is owned by EA now. Yeah, I'm guessing that their publisher is going to kill them as a studio by milking franchises with sequels and DLC. Oh well.
 

Seanfall

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May 3, 2011
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For me it's not a question of 'forgiving' it's more a question of. Can they make me care. I'm burnt out. I'm done waiting in eager anticipation, I'm done adding in little 'fanon' in between stories. I'm done thinking about their games and the meanings within. In short: I'm disappointed. It's not just the ending of ME3 that did it it's how cheap so much of it feels. Their's a lot of little things in it (story and Game play wise) that just....make me feel the series fell short of what it could have been. Granted it's not Ultima 9 levels of bad. But it's close. After Bioware pretty much shot down Indoc theory. I stopped caring. I didn't hate them anymore I wasn't angry. I just don't care. And that....is probably the worst thing you can get from a fanbase: Apathy. You see even if your upset it means you care enough to be upset. But that's how their last few games have left me feeling. Disappointed. After the EC for ME3 I walked away not feeling like i'd accomplished something but like i'd been let down. and you know what? You can only get that for so long before you wisen up. Bioware isn't Bioware anymore their Bioware with a big EA cock hanging out of their mouths.

Fuck Bioware, Fuck EA....and to quote George Carlin. "And fuck everybody now that I think of it." (that's a joke people.)
 

Ryan Hughes

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Jul 10, 2012
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Well, all companies can go through bad patches. Konami is an example of another great company that I feel is going through a slump this generation. The real difference lies in whether or not you feel the slump is caused by aesthetic or philosophy. For example: what TheDoctor455 said above:
Because I wrote a 20-page paper on the series... mainly ME1...
where I discussed and analyzed what I thought one of the key themes of the series was...
"uniting in spite of differences"... the endings for ME3, yes, all of them, even the new one...
betray that theme, and the Starchild's mere existence turns ME1 into a giant plothole.
While his/her complaints are quite valid, they are aesthetic. As opposed the philosophical complaint that EA is ruining the company through DLC and shoddy business practices.

All artists can go through aesthetic slumps, but if the philosophy has changed to something you cannot agree with, then maybe it is time to move onto another source for your RPG fun.

Personally, I never felt that BioWare was all that great of a company in the first place. If TheDoctor455 really did write a 20-page paper for a real college and got an "A" on it, then s/he is likely a better writer than most of the staff at BioWare to begin with. But I think the latest problems with the company are philosophical, a mass of DLC, including the "new" ending for ME 3. Also, the company is having difficulty meeting production deadlines set by executives, and it really shows in the writing quality of late. So, I for one, will not bother with the company until I think these problems have been fixed.
 

Deadyawn

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Jan 25, 2011
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Oh sure, I'm willing to see what they come up with next. I haven't completely sworn them off. I'm not particularly optimistic about it though.
 

PurePareidolia

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Nov 26, 2008
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YES. The ME3 ending was absolutely bad enough, even with the extended cut that they've spent every ounce of goodwill they had and then some. The thing is, the more familiar with ME3 you are, the more complete the destruction wrought by the ending becomes, and even a cursory familiarity with the themes and ideology of Mass Effect compounds that. While the extended cut addresses some of the lore issues, it doesn't address all of them, and it leaves the thematic problems in tact. The god Child's logic is still idiotic to the point of farce, the outcome is still brainwashing, genocide or soul-destroying space magic, Shepard still can't ever be right about the galaxy being worth saving in it's current form.

The Mass Effect series is broken on a fundamental level now and every second anyone spent on it is ultimately wasted because even the intrinsic satisfaction you can get from saving the galaxy is all for naught. That's a hundred hour plus campaign spanning three games that amounted to telling the player "you suck, and everything you thought was right is wrong". That ending is incredible in it's level of failure and the fact that the extended cut barely changed anything (except making control more viable) means Bioware wanted it that way. The ideology of the entire series is Bioware telling you, via their God-child mouthpiece how wrong you are for ever believing any of the idealistic nonsense that Shepard and his allies stood for.

For example, just a few of the messages that the ending delivers are: Robots are inherently evil (God-Child's premise, which you cannot argue against), unity only makes you easier to exterminate (refusal ending), people are inherently too corrupt to save themselves from extinction (not listening to Shepard prevented conventional victory) and you can't ever win against something bigger or stronger than you, only negotiate the terms of your demise (all endings). The entire series you're set up to think these things are all wrong, but the ending, which again is narrated by the writer's mouthpiece, tells us in as many words otherwise. The entire series is just so counter to everything remotely hopeful in the world it's depressing to think about.

And you can make a series like that work - Game of Thrones does it from what I've seen and people for some reason like that, but it's never been done in such a way that you're set up from the start to think the message is something different, and that, in a way makes the betrayal of the player's trust that much worse.

So let's put it this way: When Joss Whedon kills off your favourite characters it's sad, but it's for a good cause, and you know his heart is in the right place so it's worth seeing more of his work. Bioware did the same thing, but they're either so cynical or so inept that I have no desire to experience anything they make ever again. No matter how much I enjoyed the build up, it has to serve a deeper meaning or the entire series is for naught. In this case, the deeper meaning is something I just don't want to be a part of, and that does retroactively taint what came before, because the ending is the capstone of the entire series - the point everything's been building up to. The ending more than anything determines how the game should be interpreted, because it contains the writer's extrapolation of everything that happened up until that point.

And yes, after Batman and Robin, I'd never watch another Joel Schumacer Batman film.


I always feel melodramatic when I talk about Mass Effect now. This is what paying attention in English does to you - you start to understand the writer's intent in fiction, and it ruins your unironic enjoyment of things with bad writing.
 

ReinWeisserRitter

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Nov 15, 2011
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I don't have anything against Bioware. They make games I don't like, so I don't play them. I don't take someone developing a form of entertainment I didn't care for as a personal insult.