We should forgive Bioware.

[shrekfan246]

snip

Well, I actually liked about 70% of Dragon Age 2 and never played The Old Republic, so for me it was only Mass Effect 3 that turned me off of Bioware forever.

But everyone likes it a lot, and the more I see positive comments about Mass Effect 3 the crazier I think I'm going.

Can you tell me what Mass Effect 3 did right? Like anything it did that was good, Because I've played it through 6 times now and have found maybe 3 minutes of "acceptable" or "good" things in this 50 hour game.

What did you like about it? Is there something specific? Because I've driven my self mad trying to think of any reason someone who enjoyed the first 2 games would like the third one.

I am being sincere here, I'd really like to know what people liked about it.

Well, my enjoyment of the game is going to be purely based on my subjective opinion, so I believe anything I say in its favor would be able to easily be refuted by you.

Besides, if you don't think it did anything right, why did you put yourself through it six times? Sounds like you certainly have driven yourself mad. But fine, I'll tell you what I liked about it that you probably won't agree with.

I liked how much smoother the controls were. The combat felt much faster paced, it felt more urgent and visceral than the previous two games. The first Mass Effect becomes frustrating very quickly on higher difficulties and the cool-downs for biotic/engineer abilities were fairly ridiculous for pitched gunfights. I had more fun with the game-play of Mass Effect 2 than the first, and I felt that between the newly-introduced weight mechanic that altered ability cool-downs and the improved in-combat movement opened up the game when compared to 2. There was more weapon variety, as well.

While I disliked the new dialogue system and how it pigeon-holed you into being Paragon or Renegade to get the best options, I felt that the writing was still solid. While I disliked how squad-mates had less to say between missions (there were many visits to Tali/Liara/Garrus that ended with me just saying "I should go"), I liked how squad-mates would move about and banter with each other while on the Normandy. I liked the growth return characters like Jack and Grunt showed in their small cameos, I absolutely loved Mordin's quest-line, and I liked the constant call-backs to things that I had done in the previous two games.

I liked the soundtrack. That might seem like a cop-out, but the composition team only had one of the same members from the previous two games, and I think they still did a stellar job.

To me, any issues that it did have weren't enough to outweigh how much fun I had. That's about as simply as I can put it.

 

[The Forces of Chaos]

snip

Well, I actually liked about 70% of Dragon Age 2 and never played The Old Republic, so for me it was only Mass Effect 3 that turned me off of Bioware forever.

But everyone likes it a lot, and the more I see positive comments about Mass Effect 3 the crazier I think I'm going.

Can you tell me what Mass Effect 3 did right? Like anything it did that was good, Because I've played it through 6 times now and have found maybe 3 minutes of "acceptable" or "good" things in this 50 hour game.

What did you like about it? Is there something specific? Because I've driven my self mad trying to think of any reason someone who enjoyed the first 2 games would like the third one.

I am being sincere here, I'd really like to know what people liked about it.

Don't worry Mikeyfell. Your not alone in thinking that ME 3 did only a few things right (For me, only the combat (I liked the more mobile feel to sheparad) and the tuchanka plot was of interest to me). I think people just want the hate to drop down, but so many things were broken in ME3 it's not funny.

As for myself, I feel that bioware/EA wants to "broaden its player base" by appealing to Cod/FPS fans, by doing this they have alienated some of their traditional playerbase. I really have lost interest in both the ME and DA series. It seems such a waste in the direction they have gone down.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, I take issue with the rhetoric you use, but I don't disagree with you. If people don't want to support EA, then that's fine. As I said, I don't like EA's business practices. I often find myself in quite the quandary because I can't decide whether I want to not encourage EA's practices or play the game that has my interest.

I find that the answer to that depends on what you value more: Short-term gain or long-term gain. A sort of a test of personality.

Most gamers don't really care about the long-term. They take what is offered at face value, and unless they're heavily invested in their hobby (as I am; I've been gaming for about 25 years now) that is probably the most I can expect.

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but for the purposes of this topic, that's what I offer.

The hatred for EA seems to spill over into hating the developers they own based purely on the fact that they're owned by EA, though, which...

That is true, I have seen that problem cropping up a lot lately on these forums especially, but I don't hate Bioware, just as I didn't hate Westwood.

Most of the problems that crop up from EA's acquisitions stem from time-mismanagement. (not always, there are cases where the team was just incompetent)
"You can have it done Fast, Cheaply, or Competently. Pick two."
EA assumes that they can have all three, with a huge emphasis on Fast.

I think is a bit ridiculous. Think of hating The Simpsons because of something Rupert Murdoch did. It wouldn't make any sense, would it?

The sad truth of the matter is that "bad apples" are capable of supporting great works.
It's something we have to rationalize, and it's why I take objection to those who claim that it's purely a matter of "If it's a good game, support it. If it's bad, don't support it, and the market will work itself out."

Why? Because good games can come saddled with problems not directly related to content. My biggest problem with Diablo 3 for example has entirely to do with distribution and access to the content; not the quality of the content itself.

By buying Diablo 3 I may encourage Blizzard to create more content like it and that would be fine assuming I liked that content, but it also means that I would be supporting a system that actively cripples my ability to enjoy said content (I have lousy internet, and lousy choices for service).

As for my own rationalization: When a company repeatedly and continuously attempts to force such baggage onto the consumer for no reason other than "higher profits", I don't find much of a rational reason to support that.

Conversely: If such a company wants to change and move away from such practices, then I would happily support them. However, EA has not done this.

By economics, it's their job to make offers and my job to accept or reject the offers based on their merits. If a company insists on forcing the matter despite numerous protests, then I can find no rational alternative than to stop doing business with them.

Long term vs short term, again.

In EA's case, it's a combination of that and their historically appalling business ethics.
They have been proven, in court, of abusing their employees, violating labor laws, and most recently, of engaging in deliberate monopolistic practices.
I see that as long-term abuse, and signs of a company that doesn't want to chance, because it works for them.

 

[Rack]

Most gamers can only speak at 11, but even so forgiving Bioware makes no sense. They've done 4 disappointingly weak games on the trot now, 4 disappointingly weak games that received at least 80% on metacritic. There's no reason to buy another Bioware game at the moment, and they have to give us one. Either they visibly restructure the company or they take the time and care to make something really good again, even though that will directly go against the wishes of senior management. Make a game that deserves those high scores and then it will make sense to forgive them, but not before.

 

[Weaver]

I'll forgive them when they start making games again instead of DLC platforms.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

I didn't mind Dragon Age 2, don't care about Old Republic and never played Mass Effect 3.

They need to get back to decent stories. I don't care if the gameplay is like Resident Evil 1.

 

[shrekfan246]

I find that the answer to that depends on what you value more: Short-term gain or long-term gain. A sort of a test of personality.

Most gamers don't really care about the long-term. They take what is offered at face value, and unless they're heavily invested in their hobby (as I am; I've been gaming for about 25 years now) that is probably the most I can expect.

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but for the purposes of this topic, that's what I offer.

That seems to strike pretty close to home for what I've seen. There are a lot of people who like to complain about things like DRM, but when push comes to shove they don't actually do anything about it. I think a fair amount of it is probably a mentality of "Oh, I'm only one person, what impact would it have if I bought the game or not?" too though.

That is true, I have seen that problem cropping up a lot lately on these forums especially, but I don't hate Bioware, just as I didn't hate Westwood.

Most of the problems that crop up from EA's acquisitions stem from time-mismanagement. (not always, there are cases where the team was just incompetent)
"You can have it done Fast, Cheaply, or Competently. Pick two."
EA assumes that they can have all three, with a huge emphasis on Fast.

This is something I can agree with entirely.

The sad truth of the matter is that "bad apples" are capable of supporting great works.
It's something we have to rationalize, and it's why I take objection to those who claim that it's purely a matter of "If it's a good game, support it. If it's bad, don't support it, and the market will work itself out."

Why? Because good games can come saddled with problems not directly related to content. My biggest problem with Diablo 3 for example has entirely to do with distribution and access to the content; not the quality of the content itself.

By buying Diablo 3 I may encourage Blizzard to create more content like it and that would be fine assuming I liked that content, but it also means that I would be supporting a system that actively cripples my ability to enjoy said content (I have lousy internet, and lousy choices for service).

As for my own rationalization: When a company repeatedly and continuously attempts to force such baggage onto the consumer for no reason other than "higher profits", I don't find much of a rational reason to support that.

Conversely: If such a company wants to change and move away from such practices, then I would happily support them. However, EA has not done this.

By economics, it's their job to make offers and my job to accept or reject the offers based on their merits. If a company insists on forcing the matter despite numerous protests, then I can find no rational alternative than to stop doing business with them.

Long term vs short term, again.

In EA's case, it's a combination of that and their historically appalling business ethics.
They have been proven, in court, of abusing their employees, violating labor laws, and most recently, of engaging in deliberate monopolistic practices.
I see that as long-term abuse, and signs of a company that doesn't want to chance, because it works for them.

Again, something I can agree with. I mean, I'm not really sure what else to say on the matter. The last EA game I bought was Mass Effect 3, before that it was Crysis 2 and before that I can't even remember what the last game I bought had an EA stamp on it. Considering the number of games they put out per year, I'd say I'm hardly making a dent in their business model either way.

But the terrible DRM is one reason I've never purchased any of the Assassin's Creed games (or other Ubisoft titles that use the thing). Those god-awful "Your mom will hate it" commercials did nothing to interest me in Dead Space 2. Capcom's system of releasing incremental updates in physical form six months after the original release has made me disinterested in their fighting games. Konami's insanely terrible handling of the Silent Hill HD remake prevented me from buying that.

I don't know if I could write off every game that a publisher releases just because of their practices, but their practices have certainly prevented me from buying certain games before. I think maybe I'm just not as entrenched in the gaming community as some other people are. I've been gaming my entire life, but it's only been the last two years or so that I've actually started following things like this website.

 

[Amaror]

Me 3 was still good, despite the ending. The ending fucked the story but i still really enjoyed the rest of the game and got my moneys worth.
DA 2 on the other hand was not enjoyable in the least. The combat was boring and repetitive, the graphics were way uglier than Origins, the enviroments, well i don't have to tell you about that, and the story was just bullshit, with every single character going insane in the end.
I am not saying i won't buy any bioware game ever again, but to be honest i cannot see me buying a game from them at least in the foreseeable future. Da 2 was shit and defenetly not it's money worth so if i buy da 3 it would have to be a masterpiece like origins and it would be a year or two later for 10 bucks.
But i just know that's not going to happen.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

I was never mad on Bioware, so I have nothing to forgive them for. And yeah, I'm 100% buying their next game.

 

[Agente L]

It's not only DA2, ME3 and SWTOR.

It's the way they deal with critics in their own forums. It's the way they arbitrarily banned people using baseless claims. It's how they release incomplete games and sell the missing parts as DLC. It's how they have on-disk DLC. It's how they alienate their own fanbase by saying things like "We want call of duty audience" and releasing the aberration DAII, when DA:O was advertised as a "returning to the root" and "spiritual sucessor of Baldur's Gate". It's how they handled ME3 ending shitstorm.

I REALLY enjoyed DA:O. ME1 and ME2. But it's ridiculous what bioware turned into the last 3 years or so.

 

[spartan231490]

snip
I'm rambling a bit now, so to summarize here:
Maybe Bioware is just moving in a direction that you don't care for anymore. Maybe something amplified how angry you got at those two games, like their reception on the internet or something. Maybe you just think Bioware is stupid for not catering to your wants and sticking rigidly to their formulaic RPG structure. Whatever it is, can't you let it go, though? Can't you take a deep breath, relax, and either say "Yeah, okay Bioware, you do what you want, but I think I've moved on from the style you're trying to reach" without spewing hatred and anger their way, or hell, be excited to see what they do when they aren't trying to confine themselves to the RPG structure? They were the people who made MDK2 and Jade Empire, after all.

If bioware is moving in a direction that you don't care for anymore, the only reasonable approach is to no longer buy their games since they will no longer be games that interest you. Also Bioware did not stick to their rigid RPG structure, they abandoned it, that's what made people so pissed off.

And of course people can't, it's in our nature(though I don't know why). Are you really going to sit there and claim you've never spewed a little bit of hatred on the internet? Not at twilight, or Justin Beiber, or country music, or rap music, or at xbox, or PS3, or consoles in general, or the wii U, or the 3ds, or the new pokemon games, or computer gaming, or anything? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Atmos Duality]

See that's just it, if it's working for them, then why has thier stock value been droping dramatically? I think you're confusing cause with effect.

Allow me to rephrase. They THINK it works for them, because it worked for them before.
Obviously, based on their tumbling stock price and desperate attempts to appeal to, well, anyone who will listen (including issuing statements and then contradicting them a day later), they aren't doing so well.

That seems to strike pretty close to home for what I've seen. There are a lot of people who like to complain about things like DRM, but when push comes to shove they don't actually do anything about it. I think a fair amount of it is probably a mentality of "Oh, I'm only one person, what impact would it have if I bought the game or not?" too though.

Yeah, it's a poisonous way of thinking really.
And some people wonder why voter turnouts are so low...

I don't know if I could write off every game that a publisher releases just because of their practices, but their practices have certainly prevented me from buying certain games before. I think maybe I'm just not as entrenched in the gaming community as some other people are. I've been gaming my entire life, but it's only been the last two years or so that I've actually started following things like this website.

Fair enough.

As a final comment, it's kind of a nasty place to end up in when you do start caring about an issue that works across entire demographics. It becomes increasingly difficult to not blame the masses for allowing a problem (no matter how objectively correct you might be) to persist or intensify.

If you distance yourself too far from the subject, you become apathetic or cynical.
If you become too close, your passion makes you more prone to not seeing reason.

(I'm guilty of both)

Case in point: If enough of the market didn't accept cruel DRM systems, price-gouging DLC, or advertising that treated them like idiots, it wouldn't last.

 

[shrekfan246]

If bioware is moving in a direction that you don't care for anymore, the only reasonable approach is to no longer buy their games since they will no longer be games that interest you. Also Bioware did not stick to their rigid RPG structure, they abandoned it, that's what made people so pissed off.

And of course people can't, it's in our nature(though I don't know why). Are you really going to sit there and claim you've never spewed a little bit of hatred on the internet? Not at twilight, or Justin Beiber, or country music, or rap music, or at xbox, or PS3, or consoles in general, or the wii U, or the 3ds, or the new pokemon games, or computer gaming, or anything? I find that hard to believe.

You could probably find a few of my older posts that ridicule the Wii-U, possibly Twilight and country music, and I've certainly made it known that the newer Pokemon games don't interest me; But as an owner of a gaming laptop, an Xbox 360, and a PS3, no I've never been interested in "console wars", I'm mostly indifferent to Justin Bieber and things like Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey because -
1) I'm not going to hate something that I don't care enough to experience first-hand.
and
2) They have no impact on my life in any manner, so why should I care?

Number 2 extends much further for me, as well. The cancellation of Firefly didn't impact my life, so while I love the show I didn't get outraged over it. I've bought pretty much every Sonic game released, and had fun with every single one of them (with the slight exception of '06) so I've never been bothered by the problems that everyone else seems to think have been plaguing the franchise since it went 3D.

I'm apathetic toward most things. I'll readily admit that, because I don't understand what the use is in getting so worked up over something so minute. Voice your concerns, sure, but why do people always need to voice their concerns in such a violent manner?

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

I forgave Bioware after the EC. To me, that showed that they are at least willing to listen to the fans. From what I hear, they've been totally dismissive and rude to fans, turning their backs to the fanbase, but I've seen no evidence of that.

All I ask for from a game company is to make good games, and to be willing to learn from their mistakes. And to me, Bioware has succeeded on both levels. Even their worst game, Dragon Age 2, was still enjoyable. It just had other issues as well, something Bioware has admitted.

 

[Mausthemighty]

These three games made me lose faith in Bioware:
- Dragon Age 2. The story was boring, the choices you had to make were sometimes forced upon you (especially when you don't want to take sides), enemies spawn out of thin air so strategy or tactics don't matter, the blatant reuse of the same dungeons/area's over and over and the ending was bad.
- Mass Effect 3. This game was supposed to restore my faith in Bioware. I was smiling a lot when playing it and loved everything the game had to offer. Until the final mission. I will not go into depth here, because it has been rehashed the last few months on these forums, but I found the ending not logical, contradicting the entire mythology until that moment and very lazy. It ruined the game for me. Even the explanation from the DLC, didn't entice me to play anymore. I'm through.
- The Old Republic. I never wanted an MMO based on one of the best Star Wars games I have ever played. I wanted KotOR 3! Why should I play another WoW-clone in a Star Wars skin? There's a reason I stopped playing WoW. I don't want to spend ?12 a month on a game anymore, and I don't want to play my RPG surrounded by rude infantile idiots.

I'll always love Bioware for Baldur's Gate and KotOR, but I won't pre-order anything from them anymore. That blind trust in them, the trust that they always deliver good games and I won't be disappointed by them, is gone.

 

[Paragon Fury]

I can't forgive Bioware.

I was ready to try after the Extended Cut and maybe give them another chance....but then I got Jade Empire for $4 off of Steam, and now that I remember how good they used to be compared to the shit they're peddling now, I don't think it is possible to forgive anymore.

 

[MadHatter1993]

ha, the only reason why i played the old republic was because it reminded me of KotoR. the first 10 levels "were" Kotor experience. but after that i stop playing after a month. trying to relive the dream. moving on, i did love Dragon Age 2, for the Combat system, and it had Depth. it would have been a better game if it weren't for the fact the "whole" bloody game was kept in a single town while reusing the same skins for all the missions. i thought the reason they did that was so that they can add more content to the game....not really. but the DLC for it was awesome. and mass effect 3's ending was choose 1, 2 or 3....i expected a little more from you bioware, but i have to respect that it's your story you are telling us....EVEN THOUGH WE PAID FOR IT, it's their product to us.

 

[JamesStone]

I don't irrationally hate them, but I'll be damned if I do what I did with ME3 and DA2 again, that is, buying them on the first day and getting ultra excited. From now on, I'll treat them not like one of my favourite developers, but just as a developer, no different from the rest.