well, the the escapist was just attacked.

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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BobDobolina said:
jklinders said:
The email dump provided by Milo alone was very informative. The amount of pressure Tito was getting to censor the debate was appalling.
After all, just look at how much The Escapist has benefited from your presence here.
Oh my god, you actually defend someone trying to get a civil conversation censored because they don't like it.

Look, at this point we all know just what type of person you are, but none of us have said it because it's against forum rules to do so.

I will say this though: multiple people here have brought up legitimate evidence and all you have done is ad hominem attacks, playing ignorant or just shrugging it off because you don't want to believe. You use neither logic nor rationality in your arguments or discourse. To argue with you is to waste time and energy which could be used or wasted elsewhere.

You have no interest in debate, only in making us believe what you do on your word alone. You have no authority in your arguments, and no evidence to back them up, only insults.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Sep 27, 2007
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BobDobolina said:
Zontar said:
Oh my god, you actually defend someone trying to get a civil conversation
I submit to you that it's helpful to fully understand what the words "civil" and "conversation" mean before you try using them in a sentence.
At this point a fair number of us are wondering if YOU have any understanding of those words.
 

Zontar

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BobDobolina said:
Zontar said:
Oh my god, you actually defend someone trying to get a civil conversation
I submit to you that it's helpful to fully understand what the words "civil" and "conversation" mean before you try using them in a sentence.
How many people have been banned because of their discourse here? How often do the users get a warning? Hell, how often do those on the GamerGate side use ad hominimes, insults or just act like you in general? If you want to complain about the conversation being civil, at least wait until it's not at a higher quality then your own comments. Even if it where on par with your comments it would be hypocritical of you to take this stance, the fact that it isn't only makes it more jarring.

As an adamant anti-censor, I have to say this: just because you disagree with it, does not mean that it isn't civil, or that it can just be censored. Hell, censorship is what caused this whole thing to happen in the first place. It's because of people like you that it happened at all. So thank you, you and people like you are what GamerGate was created from; the opposition of corruption.
 

Stats ^1

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Josh12345 said:
Stats ^1 said:
I am reasonable, and people should feel free to discuss it... In the large thread dedicated to the discussion.

If I were unreasonable, I'd be throwing thinly veiled insults the person stating that point.
Yeah, you weren't throwing thinly veiled insults, you were just handwaving any points I made by calling them bullshit.

Should we just agree to disagree on this? It's obvious neither of us are going to be swayed by whatever the other person says.
Yup. Because your points were irrelevant and unnecessary.

And there's nothing to disagree on. This thread SHOULD NOT exist. It should be part of the existing thread and discussion of the topic. There is no counter argument. "Flood the forums with replicated threads" is the same as saying "spam the forums"
 

jklinders

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BobDobolina said:
jklinders said:
The email dump provided by Milo alone was very informative. The amount of pressure Tito was getting to censor the debate was appalling.
After all, just look at how much The Escapist has benefited from your presence here.
Classy. Welcome to my ignore list as you have provided absolutely nothing of value to this discussion at all. Your pro censorship stance is duly noted and your sad attempt at an ad hominim shows your true worth here.

Is there any post you have made at all on this thread something that actually shows a refutation of the issue at hand? All I see is insulting derisive snark. I see little reason why I should see your replies or posts at all.
 

Stats ^1

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Then.

Why.

Are.

You.

Here?

If you don't care about this discussion, then why in the name of the 20 sided die are you even posting here?
Just because I don't care about the problem doesn't mean that I don't have an issue with the existence of this thread. There's already a thread and discussion dedicated to the topic. The OP knows fully well that he's flooding the forums.

So stop with the dumb questions because it's entirely obvious as to why I'm posting. Just because you don't agree with my point, it doesn't stop me from being entirely right.
 

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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Stats ^1 said:
Just because you don't agree with my point, it doesn't stop me from being entirely right.
The problem with your statement is that you're entirely wrong, and there's no way to get around that. You haven't even tried to justify your head scratching attitude on this thread. I mean just look at it, it's what, half your posts you've ever made on this thread alone?

You came to this forum because of this controversy, and you've spent at least half your posts here complaining about it. I am absolutely sure that if GamerGate had never happened, you would have never registered an account here.
 

Calbeck

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Jul 13, 2008
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Stats ^1 said:
And there's nothing to disagree on. This thread SHOULD NOT exist. It should be part of the existing thread and discussion of the topic. There is no counter argument. "Flood the forums with replicated threads" is the same as saying "spam the forums"
If you believe this thread is a violation of the Escapist's terms of use (which it would be, if you were correct), then bring it up with the mods. Arguing with the OP does nothing more than extend the thread, something any veteran of Internet discourse should be familiar with by now.

That said, the DDoS attack is fresh news of a serious nature, identified as an attack on GamerGate threads by a co-founder of the Escapist. Even when you have an ongoing thread about a movement or controversy, the creation of a NEW controversy warrants a new thread specific to it.

If you cannot convince a mod that the OP is "spamming", then you simply have an opinion like everyone else and welcome to the Internet.
 

Stewie Plisken

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BobDobolina said:
This was over when #GameOverGate pwned you and you couldn't face it.
See that bit I quoted? Many people in The Escapist or outside share your position that this is all hogwash and that we are crazy conspiracy theorists with poor research that we have no leg to stand on. I don't agree, but that's their position.

But THEN, you go and claim that the EQUALLY UNVERIFIABLE AND LARGELY DEBUNKED CHERRY-PICKED COLLECTION OF PICTURES, the exact same kind that you were JUST MAKING FUN OF, somehow "pwned" us.

It's a rarity that people manage to kick their own argument in the shin. Congratulations.

The longer you take to face it, the longer your humiliation will stretch out
Aren't you overly dramatic. Nobody's humiliating us. This industry relies on us-- you and us both. We're customers. If an industry decides to humiliate its customers and still hopes to survive, let's see how it works out.

Seriously, even if GG dies tomorrow, what exactly do you expect will happen? We will all fall into deep depression and start chain-mailing apologies with crying selfies to Kotaku and Gamasutra? Much like many who share your viewpoint you spend post after post after post claiming some false sense of intellectual superiority and arbitrary maturity and in the end you make claims you cannot enforce even on yourself. If you don't find this interesting and you clearly have no arguments, don't waste your time, do something more productive. If it pisses you off that much, go punch a wall; then do something productive.
 

SentimentalGeek

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Stats ^1 said:
Josh12345 said:
Stats ^1 said:
I am reasonable, and people should feel free to discuss it... In the large thread dedicated to the discussion.

If I were unreasonable, I'd be throwing thinly veiled insults the person stating that point.
Yeah, you weren't throwing thinly veiled insults, you were just handwaving any points I made by calling them bullshit.

Should we just agree to disagree on this? It's obvious neither of us are going to be swayed by whatever the other person says.
Yup. Because your points were irrelevant and unnecessary.

And there's nothing to disagree on. This thread SHOULD NOT exist. It should be part of the existing thread and discussion of the topic. There is no counter argument. "Flood the forums with replicated threads" is the same as saying "spam the forums"
There's quite plainly a counter-argument: one thread that is related to the recent DDOS that brings up Gamergate, outside of the main Gamergate thread, doesn't - to any reasonable person - constitute a "flooding". But we've long established you're anything but reasonable.
 

runic knight

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Falling said:
It's not inconsistent if properly qualified. (And this mess for the entire month has been fraught with hyperbole and sorely lacking in qualifiers.) It is demonstrably true that a large number of people jumped on Zoe after her ex? spread their trash out on the lawn, metaphorically speaking. Demonstrably true because there was a whole bunch of posts from a whole bunch of people.
I'll agree so far, lot of angry people involved.

Furthermore, the beginning was rift with conspiracy theories, and even sucking Anita's work into the hurricane of controversy (for some reason, I'm still not sure.)
That would be because Zoe got treated with a defense tactic the same as anita did: dismiss it as misogyny. Also her connection to the "sjw" crowd and her history with claiming harassment and getting publicity during the wizardchan incident.

Again, demonstrably true due to a whole number of posts by a whole lot of people. Now. They may not have been the majority. They may not have been representative. But like youtube comments, they are pretty dang visible, and none too pretty. So it is fair to say that there was a significant part of Quinspiracy (as it was originally called) that posted sexist comments, and even harassed. Maybe the newest iteration- one GG- has purged the radical elements and moved on to bigger and better things, but for awhile, it was picking up some odd cowboys along the way (that white nationalist dude that wanted to make a video on the Anita effect for instance.)
Here is where I have to jump in and actually stop this train of thought, since you skipped a step. You have to demonstrate that hateful comments, even ones that use sexually identifying slurs, are actually fueled by a hatred of women. This is sort of a big part of the contention, actually.

See, I have glasses. And if I piss someone off, they might make an insult based on that fact. Now them mentioning it doesn't mean they hate glasses or people with glasses, just that they are dicks and grabbed at whatever they saw as a point I may get offended by.

Thus the comments about Zoe or Anita or whoever are not demonstrated as misogynistic, and are instead assumed and repeated as such. Ironically, the sort of defense against misogyny sends a message to people who want to insult her that her gender is a point of weakness and thus they tend to make reference to it more.

Even dismissing that aspect of contention that has been used to slander the entire group, you must compare the response she got with the backlash people who reported on the issue got, such as Mundanematt, IA or even later arrivals like Jaydfox. You will see the level of hate and bile thrown their way is equivalent, only they do not get the media reporting on it or spend the excessive amount of time pointing to it and then to their back account link.

furthermore the attempts to paint those who disagreed with her as sexist kinda shows you are lumping their actions all together as motivated by gender first, Or white nationalists kinda suggest you are arguing that their personal politics are relevant to why one side can be lumped together as a whole to blame all for the actions of individuals, but the other, not so much.

In this case, we simply do not know. Was it one person, was it a group of people? What we do not have are widespread DDOS attacks coming in at the quantity of the dog-piling comments on Zoe. Short of thousands of sock puppets, you can't generate that level of furor on the internet without a whole of people. You can DDOS a website with a very small group of people... or only one person.
I'll agree that you can do that with a small amount of people, yes. Though that fact alone tells us nothing about the motivations, alliances or ideology about them. Or, for that matter, even their size, as it only adds to possibilities, it doesn't actually remove any.

Think of it terms of concentration. With enough terrible people originating from a certain movement, you can say that they are at least somewhat representative of whole. (Until you try and purge 'em like Buckley and the John Birsch Society.) But if your sample is one (maybe, we don't know yet which 'side' they are), then yes you can certainly say it is an individual. (And should also be ostracized from the group.) Look, any new thing is going to attract some really terrible people. I really haven't seen what the tumblr crowd does... I am equally disinterested in them as I am of 4chan. Maybe they have a bunch of ridiculous posters, if so they need to rein them in. But what I have seen on this side from the fallout of Quin... is quite bad. That too, needs to be reined in. Especially this conspiracy nonsense. That garbage has been there from the beginning. But considering this was one attack on one website... yeah at this point, I'm thinking it's not something that's permeated one side or the other. Probably an individual or group of individuals.
Now I have to disagree with a few aspects of this. First is that it dismisses the amount of terrible people on the other side. and there are a lot of terrible people who are anti-gamergate. Some of them actually the journalists questioned. Secondly is just circles back around to a fallacy of association. And then a fallacy of ridicule by mocking them as conspiracy theories when there has been a demonstrated conspiracy between members of the journalist to censor discussion on the topic thanks to the leaked group chat.

So yeah, I still think it is very intellectually dishonest to claim that this action is the work of individuals but the harassing and threats are representative of the entire gamergate movement.

I mean, look back over your argument. Because people were angry at zoe at the start, it means the entire movement is forever painted as misogynists and harassers. But the journalists who are not only being utterly monstrous on twitter to people, including threats, insults and doxing, and have had their own supports doxxing and harassing people too, well suddenly the actions of those people are just randoms?

It is not consistent application of reason.
 

Calbeck

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Jul 13, 2008
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Ultratwinkie said:
I still remember you calling it hateful because of its origins, and questioning the entire group's intentions by saying "oh there MIGHT be fakers in there." Even mine by saying I use SJW tactics. You accused me of being part of a misogynistic mob for being pissed off at the toxic hypocrisy in games journalism where friendship beats common decency.
Well said... and here we are, you and I in agreement on something. Normally we tend to butt heads, when we encounter one another in various debates on the Escapist. We may disagree on a lot --- but not on defending our fellow gamers against violations of basic journalist ethics.
 

Jux

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Sep 2, 2012
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Ultratwinkie said:
I still remember you calling it hateful because of its origins, and questioning the entire group's intentions by saying "oh there MIGHT be fakers in there." Even mine by saying I use SJW tactics. You accused me of being part of a misogynistic mob for being pissed off at the toxic hypocrisy in games journalism where friendship beats common decency.

I said they were faking interest because they don't practice what they preach. Listen and Believe only applies to white women. Someone can make remarks about blacks and not be called out on it by anyone. Other journalists can retweet that and yet not a single one of those journalists care. And the kicker is that out of all their friends there is literally no diversity which they hold in such esteem.

Highlighting a lack of diversity in games journalism that is disproportionate to modern gamers.

That's what SJWs are: people who use social issues as a status symbol to specifically to impress friends and to gain influence. Social media has made it acceptable, and it causes a huge problem if an industry is too busy circle jerking itself to actually do anything. Its basically social media narcissism.

Which has been seeping into the games industry for a long while.

The only evidence you put forward was over a month ago and relies on your feels and the feels of journalists in the middle of this. Or logs from a site entirely composed of trolling and shit posts. You won't accept anyone else questioning the intentions of journalists because of your personal hang ups.

And at the very end you question my intentions again even when they have been the same for the 2 arguments we have had. Yet that doesn't stop people from saying I don't care about my own race and using it to "manufacture" outrage.
When you're ready to stop soap boxing and dodging my questions, I'll be here. By any measure of what I see on this site, gamergate still hasn't moved past the misogyny, and contrary to the strident claims that it's all about 'journalistic integrity', that seems to take a backseat to the witch hunt for 'SJWs', which is hilarious, because it looks like an 'SJW' is basically anyone you don't agree with.

And for all the posturing about how 'SJWs' 'hide' behind minorities and use them as a shield, you seem perfectly content to wield that shield yourself, treating basically anyone that doesn't agree with gamergate as supporting some racist status quo. Now, I am perfectly willing to believe you are mad about diversity in gaming, I'm not questioning that. What I am questioning is your obvious bias against the social justice movement's principles, and how that relates to how you've chosen to pursue diversity in gaming.
 

Calbeck

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Jul 13, 2008
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Jux said:
By any measure of what I see on this site, gamergate still hasn't moved past the misogyny, and contrary to the strident claims that it's all about 'journalistic integrity', that seems to take a backseat to the witch hunt for 'SJWs', which is hilarious, because it looks like an 'SJW' is basically anyone you don't agree with.
I have no idea what site you're looking at, because I'm simply not seeing that on this one.

To the contrary, I'm seeing a spirited debate in the main GG thread, precisely on the subject of overusing the term "SJW" as a general pejorative. What I'm not seeing is a load of people lining up to even suggest that women are inherently bad people... you know, the basic definition of what misogyny is. It seems your definition of the term is "any complaint about untoward behavior by a person happening to be possessed of a certain non-male set of chromosomes".

Meanwhile, everyone else is actually discussing confirmed breaches of journalistic integrity, which themselves are finally being addressed by non-GG members of the press outside the afflicted publishers.

Not quite sure how all that slid by you...