What do people actually want male gamers to be like?
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To be honest I just consider privilege to mean that there are certain things that you will never have to deal with. If you're a white man, you'll never have to worry about a police officer feeling threatened by you and shooting you. If you're male you'll never have to worried about being turned down for a position because of the possibility that you might get married. If you're CIS-gendered you'll never have to worry about being attacked for the bathroom you go into. Stuff like that and that we should be working towards ending it. It doesn't mean your life is pain free, just that there are certain things you'll never have to worry about.CpT_x_Killsteal said:
Alrighty well that sounds reasonable. Woohoo. Although I think the first point really only pertains to white people in general and specifically North America, I agree with you completely. I'm also unsure about the second point because I'm pretty sure turning someone away because they might get married is illegal in Australia.erttheking said:
And thanks for not telling me to go
Ah the subtle flaw in that logic is it is a fallacy.erttheking said:
Denying the Antecedent 'Fallacious Modus Tollens' - like an improper transposition, but refers to other causes being overlooked. "Getting hit causes bruising. You haven't been hit, therefore you don't have any bruises." - not all effects have a single cause.
This fallacy does not deny racism, sexism, or trans-gender prejudices, but instead points out the fact that some people are assholes or any other cause are being overlooked.
No problem. And probably on the first point, and my second point was less "Woman about to be married" and more "We don't want to hire a woman because she'll just go and get herself pregnant" which does happen.CpT_x_Killsteal said:
No problem.
I said that people in BOTH sides are being assholes. The whole dishonest journalism thing is what's frustrating me about the whole anti-gamer gate side. Frankly there's just too much unwanted baggage in this whole mess for me to want to get involved, even though both sides have good points.DC_78 said:
Well, as I said, no one is really telling anyone what they can or cannot enjoy. At least I don't see it. I mean, even if they are, it's not really having an effect on the industry, does it? When someone says that some aspect of some video game is potentially problematic, they aren't saying "Stop enjoying this immediately!" Even if they do, that's inane and pointless. I see plenty of problems in all media and I still enjoy them while simultaneously being aware of the problems and able to point them out. If I talk about it, it's exactly because I love the media in question and I want to see it improve.insaninater said:
Other than that, I disagree that wanting equality and representation is a "political agenda", especially a negative one. And I don't think the social justice is new, it's just that in the recent years, it's become safer to speak about it. Much like 20 years ago it wasn't as safe to declare that you're gay, and today it is in a lot of places in the world (although not all). People who debate social justice also didn't just "waltz in" to spew shit about people who play games; they are gamers talking about a hobby they like and enjoy. That's why they are talking about it. I usually don't give enough shit to get myself involved in commenting about sports or something else, because I am not a part of that community/hobby and have very little information about the inner workings of sports. There are other people who deal with that, I've seen plenty here and there. I talk about games because I like games. Same with movies and books for example.
I'm all for SJ bard being a thingerttheking said:
I shall bring down the patriarchy and all MALE CIS WHITE SCUM shall tremble in fear of the sound of my MIGHTY LUTE!
Since this is the internet and in case it wasn't clear no I don't use the terms patriarchy or cis white scum seriously.
Yeah I sort of figured that was what you meant. Even though I'm fairly sure it's illegal, there's no way to know if those were the motives of the employer unless he says it himself, so it's difficult to enforce.erttheking said:
A question on the privilege part: isn't it more accurate to say that some people are getting the shit end of the stick, rather than saying a certain group of people are privileged above another group? The idea sort of comes across as being discriminated against is the norm rather than the disgusting actions of a few individuals. A better way of communicating current inequalities would instead be to say that everyone has the right to be treated equally (the right instead of the privilege) and that some people aren't.
TrueCpT_x_Killsteal said:
I think part of the problem comes from the old "Out of sight, out of mind" issue, in that if some people don't have to deal with certain problems, they don't exist.
Ert I was simply responding to the quoted examples in the paragraph. Not taking offense, or trying to attack your view which I totally agree with. Both sides have their good points. Gamergate has NO IDEA how the industry of game media works and it has shown. I have used this as an excuse to educate myself on it but most have simply parrotted the mob.erttheking said:
I understand being tired of this mess. I know I am. Fighting anymore will accomplish nothing. A schism is needed where those that are "conservative" gamers can get what they want.
Transform into what? I think that's a pretty big point here. Transforming a culture into one thing could be bad, but transforming it into another thing could be beneficial.insaninater said:
The world we live in has been "transforming" since the dawn of time. Cultures arise, transform, die and rise again. We transformed from slavery and feudalism into democracies. We transformed from not allowing women to vote or go to college. I don't see the issue with transformation itself. If gaming culture was a closed-off boys club (usually straight, white and cis), transforming it to be more inclusive for other members (that were trying to get in since the beginning because there's nothing inherently white, straight and male about wanting to control pixels on computer screens) would be beneficial, wouldn't it? I mean, it would be to me. I wouldn't have to worry about people asking me for my "gamer cred" when I say that I play games, or telling me that I'm just doing it for attention. I don't want to listen to "gay" used as an insult or racist comments. Some people may say that if I'm bothered by that, I should just find another hobby, but that brings us back to my first post about the ownership of hobbies.
Point is, none of this is supposed to remove men from the hobby. Just safely include more people so others can enjoy the benefits of having a community for sharing the love for a hobby. Of course, opening to include more people can feel like an invasion of personal space. That's unfortunate, but I don't think any true "invasion" is taking place or that men will have to abandon video games.
Well, first of all, I don't have information about Anita's personal interests nor do I care enough to investigate. She has an opinion, she makes videos about it on the internet, she's hardly the only one from either "side". I don't see her as a go-to face for all social justice, people have been talking about social justice in video games long before her and will continue after. If she's the one people get insulted by, I don't know what to say other than I've never seen any of her videos advocate hatred and insults for people who play games. And besides, she did play the games for her videos, or at least watched someone else play them if we're going down the route that she is not a gamer. I mean, I doubt she bought all those games she took pictures with in order to throw them in the meat grinder. I guess she did something with those games, probably something like playing them or watching someone play them. Well, maybe she sold them or returned them back after the photosession. But I digress.insaninater said:
And second of all, what about all the gamers and members of the industry who talk about social justice? Why focus on Anita? The Escapist's own Jim Sterling became somewhat of a poster child for social justice lately, being accused all the time about it. Isn't he a real gamer? Or many others who speak about it on gaming websites. There are certainly gamers who talk about this and who even agree with Anita. If Anita doesn't satisfy you, there are others who represent the movement better.
About "check your privilege", I can't for the life of me remember when was the last time I saw someone use this term seriously. At this point, it's pretty meaningless because it was mocked to no end. I think that says enough about how successful it was. And I wouldn't say that people who use it are against equality, I just think that they are fighting the battle in a completely wrong way. There are people like that in all movements and ideologies. You know, the ones who bring bad reputation for everyone else, like vegetarians and vegans who scream "Murderer!" at you. I... am not bothered by those. Even being a vegetarian myself, I got myself into a mindset that I will educate people around me the best I can without being an asshole and do my best to present the movement in a rational way. Same goes with gaming and social justice. I don't give attention to people who scream and insult, I don't identify with them or with the hate they get. Every movement gets bad elements, it's unavoidable. I suggest to shift your attention to rational people that are capable of discussing without insulting others and avoiding people that make you uncomfortable or angry or anxious. That's just not healthy.
Now excuse me, it's 5 am over here and I'm going to sleep. Good night, perhaps we will continue the conversation tomorrow.
That's not what "check your privilege" necessary means though many people use it badly, like its an insult and to belittle others achievements. "Check your privilege" is not a great sounding term either, it's needlessly aggressive and I think its a bit to heavy to be used for arguments about games. However the concept of "privilege" is fine to me. Acknowledging that certain groups have certain advantages in certain areas (no this doesn't mean you automatically win at life) or won't typically have deal with certain issues based on things like race, sex, sexuality, where on the socio-economic ladder you were born ect is not a bad thing. If you know where inequalities are you can work to fix that or at least be a bit more understanding of others with those issues. The privilege thing is more a counter to shit like "man why can't all those Polynesians just get a damn job, it's their fault their poor".insaninater said:
Problem with "just treat everyone equally" is a lot of people don't, even if if you are equal legally and may not realise they are doing it when its things like trending towards names typical of certain nationalities on job applications when you don't have huge differences between them in other ways. Also if you have a group that through systematic oppression ended up in a bad way and then change it to be "equal" it isn't all fixed right away because most of them are still starting off from a bad position and you still have bias and lack of role models and shit like that so sometimes a group might actually need a bit of extra help for a while. Obviously there is a lot of debate on how exactly you should handle this.
I always wonder how I miss all these people who think having testicles and playing games makes you the scum of the earth. I sort of suspect they're made up to have someone to rage against. I honestly don't know a single male gamer who has come under attack for being a male gamer.
What do I want from male gamers? Same I want from everyone. Act like a decent fucking human being, and we'll get on fine. Don't, and you have no right to complain when people react poorly to you.
What do I want from male gamers? Same I want from everyone. Act like a decent fucking human being, and we'll get on fine. Don't, and you have no right to complain when people react poorly to you.
It also doesn't help that it isn't a fixed, universal rule. There are places where it's better to be black than others and places where it's better to be a woman than others. Many of the Islamic states are pretty awesome for people of colour but probably not that good for women. And I think that's part of the problem. There's no privilege score (not seriously, anyway). There's no flow chart, no point system, no hard rules. Something you can't see and something that isn't equally true in all cases.thaluikhain said:
Personally I'm still undecided on much of the stuff relating to the issue. I'm just trying to point out there is rational behind it that isn't based in a belief that group is inferior or the bad guys. I don't advocate bringing a group down but stuff like support groups, workshops targeted at certain groups and putting a bit more effort showcasing of successful members of a group isn't really. I use to get annoyed at race specific scholarships but I don't really mind them any more especially since it tends to be for careers where they want diversity for a specific reason (ie doctors and politicians). If you have two people you can hire and they are both equally qualified it might be good to hire the one who is statistically less likely to be hired because you know they are likely to get trouble else where but that doesn't need to be in legislation. I don't agree with higher benefits for member of a certain races. Increasing the benefit for everyone is going to help them anyway since there are more of them on the benefit and poor is still poor no matter who they are.insaninater said:
Even if a solution is not immediately obvious its still good to discuss and be aware of these things.
So... I don't know, maybe I just don't hang around the same places as everyone else - I can't think of a time in recent memory that I've ever been attacked or denigrated for being a white male. Obviously, I'm not trying to say "I haven't seen it so it never happens." Just that I can only speak from my own point of view and my own experiences.
Being a white guy is great. When I walk into a store people assume I'm there to buy something. When I get pulled over by the cops the most I'm worried about is getting a ticket, and it's always because they actually have a reason to pull me over. I've never been stopped for anything other than speeding or having a busted tail light, etc.
If I go to a party, get too drunk and pass out, the worst I'm worried about is maybe someone will draw a penis on my face. Every job I've had I get earmarked as a "real up and comer," and statistically I'm more likely to be promoted over any other demographic.
Even now, most things are marketed toward me, and most of the people I see on TV and movies look and talk like me. No one has ever questioned whether or not I was a "real nerd," no one has ever sought proof that I really was a gamer. I may encounter abuse online but none of it's ever been targeted specifically at my sexuality, gender, or race.
(In fact as I white heterosexual male, I can't even think of an insult that is specifically targeted at my identity - women, minorities, LGBT all have very specific derogatory terms you can refer to them by - I have none. There literally are no names you can call me to insult who I am, or if there are I've never heard them.)
During the course of my day I can specifically expect not to be harassed on the street because of my gender, heritage, or sexuality. It's pretty great guys, I highly recommend being a white heterosexual male.
That said, of course it would make me angry if someone denigrated my point of view or dismissed me because of my identity. That's never cool.
I don't apologize for being who I am. I owe no one any favors because of who I am. I am inclined to not be an asshole, but I think that goes for everyone. Just don't be an asshole. You would think it would be an easy thing, but it's just so very hard for some people.
Being a white guy is great. When I walk into a store people assume I'm there to buy something. When I get pulled over by the cops the most I'm worried about is getting a ticket, and it's always because they actually have a reason to pull me over. I've never been stopped for anything other than speeding or having a busted tail light, etc.
If I go to a party, get too drunk and pass out, the worst I'm worried about is maybe someone will draw a penis on my face. Every job I've had I get earmarked as a "real up and comer," and statistically I'm more likely to be promoted over any other demographic.
Even now, most things are marketed toward me, and most of the people I see on TV and movies look and talk like me. No one has ever questioned whether or not I was a "real nerd," no one has ever sought proof that I really was a gamer. I may encounter abuse online but none of it's ever been targeted specifically at my sexuality, gender, or race.
(In fact as I white heterosexual male, I can't even think of an insult that is specifically targeted at my identity - women, minorities, LGBT all have very specific derogatory terms you can refer to them by - I have none. There literally are no names you can call me to insult who I am, or if there are I've never heard them.)
During the course of my day I can specifically expect not to be harassed on the street because of my gender, heritage, or sexuality. It's pretty great guys, I highly recommend being a white heterosexual male.
That said, of course it would make me angry if someone denigrated my point of view or dismissed me because of my identity. That's never cool.
I don't apologize for being who I am. I owe no one any favors because of who I am. I am inclined to not be an asshole, but I think that goes for everyone. Just don't be an asshole. You would think it would be an easy thing, but it's just so very hard for some people.
I'll be honest, reading this thread makes me quite sad, there is alot of misinformation and personal opinion in these posts.
One of the problems is simply the word privilege, people take it to mean you are "entitled" to certain benefits, but that's not what it means in the context of feminism. Privilege means men simply have certain societal benefits that women don't have, simply due to the sake of their gender. A man will find it easier to enter certain fields of work, for example, engineering, a man will be paid more for the same work, men are expected to perform better under stress, thus making them better for certain positions, etc. This isn't say men are arrogant, or men are jerks, it's just to say our reality gives men certain benefits it does not give women. Patriarchical culture means a culture that gives men priviledges due to their gender and tends to favor a male worldview. The current american culture is that the average white male is the norm and those that deviate from that norm are subject to harsher standards/less benefits and it is generally more okay to have some form of prejudice against them. This doesn't necessarily apply everywhere, but it does in alot of places.
People have also thrown around things that us women get benefits for that men don't. Unfortunately alot of those issues are due to the same prejudices that seem to benefit men. Women are better caregivers, were weaker, were less able to handle stress, etc.
And finally, the OP said alot of incorrect things, alot of people conflate feminism with straw feminism (or feminazi as some call it), which is largely something manufactured so people can mock it, and hurts feminism. Feminists do not support superior female dominance in culture, it is simply seeking equal opportunities for both genders. There is alot of anger and hate on both sides and it's only really come to the fore recently, this is called culture backlash, and the increasing presence of feminism is trying to force out traditional ideas of masculinity, this "threat" to cultural norm is what's caused people to lash out, hyper masculinize, glorify certain attitudes of violence and dominance and the like towards women.
Note these are general societal/cultural issues, they do not say YOU are guilty of anything, nor does it say men cannot suffer hardships, it simply says the deck tends to favor the straight white male in the United States. Thus many arguments are directed towards "men" because it's a "male dominated" culture, but this does not mean they are targetted directly at any individual person.
I can also say I have never ever heard a single person say "check your privilege" except on forums like this where they try to talk about how feminism is stupid and oppressing men.
I've been gaming since the NES era, alas not Atari, and while attitudes have improved over the years, god knows there was a huge number of issues simply being female in games, but I tended to frequent the same areas of the internet, the same games and people grew to like me and I became the "norm". But let's be clear, despite us being a huge part of the gaming market, were still being treated by intruders by what is sadly a very vocal MINORITY of gamers, and it's unfortunate but the loudest voice is this minority. Gamers however feel very offended when women speak of "male gamers who are misogynists" because they take it as a personal insult, and thus rally together... unfortunately defending the very people they should get rid of. Much like how white people are not all associated with the KKK, it would be nice if gamers could condemn and put more effort into removing their toxic elements, so people did not associate "gamers" so negatively.
That's just my take on it.
Sorry for the lack of quotes but I read the entire thread and just didn't know where to start.
One of the problems is simply the word privilege, people take it to mean you are "entitled" to certain benefits, but that's not what it means in the context of feminism. Privilege means men simply have certain societal benefits that women don't have, simply due to the sake of their gender. A man will find it easier to enter certain fields of work, for example, engineering, a man will be paid more for the same work, men are expected to perform better under stress, thus making them better for certain positions, etc. This isn't say men are arrogant, or men are jerks, it's just to say our reality gives men certain benefits it does not give women. Patriarchical culture means a culture that gives men priviledges due to their gender and tends to favor a male worldview. The current american culture is that the average white male is the norm and those that deviate from that norm are subject to harsher standards/less benefits and it is generally more okay to have some form of prejudice against them. This doesn't necessarily apply everywhere, but it does in alot of places.
People have also thrown around things that us women get benefits for that men don't. Unfortunately alot of those issues are due to the same prejudices that seem to benefit men. Women are better caregivers, were weaker, were less able to handle stress, etc.
And finally, the OP said alot of incorrect things, alot of people conflate feminism with straw feminism (or feminazi as some call it), which is largely something manufactured so people can mock it, and hurts feminism. Feminists do not support superior female dominance in culture, it is simply seeking equal opportunities for both genders. There is alot of anger and hate on both sides and it's only really come to the fore recently, this is called culture backlash, and the increasing presence of feminism is trying to force out traditional ideas of masculinity, this "threat" to cultural norm is what's caused people to lash out, hyper masculinize, glorify certain attitudes of violence and dominance and the like towards women.
Note these are general societal/cultural issues, they do not say YOU are guilty of anything, nor does it say men cannot suffer hardships, it simply says the deck tends to favor the straight white male in the United States. Thus many arguments are directed towards "men" because it's a "male dominated" culture, but this does not mean they are targetted directly at any individual person.
I can also say I have never ever heard a single person say "check your privilege" except on forums like this where they try to talk about how feminism is stupid and oppressing men.
I've been gaming since the NES era, alas not Atari, and while attitudes have improved over the years, god knows there was a huge number of issues simply being female in games, but I tended to frequent the same areas of the internet, the same games and people grew to like me and I became the "norm". But let's be clear, despite us being a huge part of the gaming market, were still being treated by intruders by what is sadly a very vocal MINORITY of gamers, and it's unfortunate but the loudest voice is this minority. Gamers however feel very offended when women speak of "male gamers who are misogynists" because they take it as a personal insult, and thus rally together... unfortunately defending the very people they should get rid of. Much like how white people are not all associated with the KKK, it would be nice if gamers could condemn and put more effort into removing their toxic elements, so people did not associate "gamers" so negatively.
That's just my take on it.
Sorry for the lack of quotes but I read the entire thread and just didn't know where to start.
It is best to just forget the expectations of those who will never be satisfied with you not because of your individuality but because of your gender.
Find yourself, find who and what sort of person you want to be and strive towards that goal. Ignore the social and cultural pressures about what you have to be or how you have to act or what you need to look like. And definitely anyone trying to tell you how you are suppose to act based on your gender, your race or your sexuality.
I am sorry you are going through what you are going though, but people just can't live up to standards other people make for them and be happy about it forever.
Find yourself, find who and what sort of person you want to be and strive towards that goal. Ignore the social and cultural pressures about what you have to be or how you have to act or what you need to look like. And definitely anyone trying to tell you how you are suppose to act based on your gender, your race or your sexuality.
I am sorry you are going through what you are going though, but people just can't live up to standards other people make for them and be happy about it forever.