I find this funny.ENKC said:
Mainly cause when i think about Australia, I think about Georgia.
What does the Confederate flag represent to you?
- Thread starter Baron Von Evil Satan
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Mainly cause when i think about Australia, I think about Georgia.
You should rename your post and question to "was the Civil War fought over slavery", since that is what this is boiling down to. So to address that question I'll say this. The civil war was fought over slavery. If you look at South Carolina's official documents declaring secession, they describe it as to protect slavery. Sure, states rights played a part, but what was the right states were fighting for? Slavery, what a coincidence. Also, the reason why slavery was declared illegal by Lincoln in the Emancipation Proclamation was because he and most people in the north believed that slavery was wrong. I won't argue whether all or even most of the people in the south were pro-slavery for racist reasons, I won't generalize as that is unfair. But most of the leadership was pro-slavery, and definitely not all of them (or even most) were pro-slavery for economic reasons.Baron Von Evil Satan said:
So, after that rambling, I'll answer your real question. This is what the Confederate flag means to me. It is unrealistic nostalgia. It represents a time where our country fought with itself in an attempt to finally end building tensions between the north and the south since the revolutionary war. It was a war sparked by and fought for slavery, that ended in the deaths of millions of men, women and children. Neither side was truly right, and neither side was truly wrong. Now trying to live back in those days, and remember them as the "glory days" is unrealistic, stupid, and problematic. If half of our country truly believes that this was the greatest time in their history, then they need to learn to face reality. Do you know what most people (at least the ones I know) think about the Civil War? WE DON'T. It happened 150 years ago, and there is no reason to try to relive it. Just as we should not try to live all of our other horrible wars, like WWI etc. There is your answer, NOW GOOD DAY!
*ahem*this isnt my name said:
No.
While I don't particularly agree with the Union's reasons for going to war (the South was in every way legally sound in seceding), the main issue that drove them to secede in the first place was, in fact, conflicting positions on slavery. The north essentially did everything, to the extent of depriving states of their rights, to ensure that even if slavery was legal down south, it wouldn't become legal nationally, and this legal shadiness led the south to secede.
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To me, the Confederate Flag represents southern pride and nationalism. It's really no different than an Italian who takes pride in having Roman roots. However, the people that adorn themselves with Confederate Flags represent to me stupid hicks, racists, and sore losers. Because that's who they typically are.
An old country that had good AND bad ways of doing business, just like every country EVER!
And, of course, rednecks.
EDIT: The civil war wasn't over slavery when it came right down to it, It was over taxes and the north being industrial while the south was rural and what not.
And, of course, rednecks.
EDIT: The civil war wasn't over slavery when it came right down to it, It was over taxes and the north being industrial while the south was rural and what not.
yeah, well hicks and rednecks isnt the nicest way to put it. my grandfather is a "hick" as you say. i believe it means being prideful of southern life. which i'm not, but its nice for others to beJonluw said:
Rednecks trying to be controversial...in Australia, not having a firm grasp of the historical meaning.
Woah, I think your interpretation is flawed, as is your argument.Estocavio said:
1: Just cause your from Australia, doesn't make you unbiased.
2: They tried to become independent for fear that Lincoln might outlaw slavery, not you other reason. also Lincoln didn't even issue the Emancipation Proclamation until HALF WAY through the war.
3: Robert E. Lee wasn't killed in battle, nor did he fight for the reasons that the others did, he fought only cause his hometown was in Virginia. He would have fought for the North otherwise.
4: You obviously show you "lack of bias" by calling the south heros, and calling the north Tyrannical.
5: Sure, the south was not all bad, but textbooks NEVER portray them as evil. That is actually one thing people have been cautious about, they teach the history, and not put in their own opinions.
6: They south became independent to keep slavery
7: They were of coarse branded Rebels and Traitors, that is what happens when you rebel.
8: Just because Jefferson Davis and his "patriarchs" set free his slaves before Lincoln did doesn't mean anything. That doesn't make him not racist (or less so since pretty much everybody in that time was racist). Your just adding in a fact that is completely unverifiable and unneeded.
Think before you write.
If I see it, all I can think of is bigotry and racism. If I see it on a trailer home...
Don't even get me started.
Don't even get me started.
In case you haven't figured out. The confederate flag is still a bit of a sore spot in the USA.
I think its a bad symbol and should generally not be used. While I don't think everyone who flies it a racist, I do see it as a mark of low class. I have to admit that, as a black man raised in the north, i don't find it to be a comforting thing and I tend to stay away from places that have them in abundance.
tl;dr Confederate Flag = low class and or racism but I'm black and, therefore, have a different view than others would.
I think its a bad symbol and should generally not be used. While I don't think everyone who flies it a racist, I do see it as a mark of low class. I have to admit that, as a black man raised in the north, i don't find it to be a comforting thing and I tend to stay away from places that have them in abundance.
tl;dr Confederate Flag = low class and or racism but I'm black and, therefore, have a different view than others would.
Since when did one man represent an entire nation? Using that logic I can assume that all Americans hate soldiers and they all believe that God intends for them to die. Slavery may be the reason the upper class rich politicians wanted to secede, but it certainly wasn't the reason most Southerners wanted to. They wanted freedom from a nation they viewed as oppressive. They see the North as taking advantage of them and stepping on them every chance it got. I explained this in my post, did you even read it? Or did you see "The South didn't represent slavery" and immediately pull out something ONE PERSON said. It doesn't even matter that he was Vice President. People have minds and they think their own ideas. An entire nation isn't going to unanimously agree with something someone says, no matter their position.Nurb said:
And Jefferson Davis (president) saw that emancipation would come in a generation or two regardless, and used the Confederacy as a means to get black people ready to integrate on an equal footing so as to not cause many generations of underprivileged lower class that would be exploited by others. What's your point?Nurb said:
Growing up in East Texas, and the purportedly "Oldest Town in Texas", I've seen the Confederate flag so often that it's pretty much stopped registering. In and of itself, I don't see it as being especially racist, though I sometimes question the sense and taste of those who display on every surface in their homes.
Saying the Civil War was about NOTHING but slavery is a bit like saying the Crusades were about religion and only religion. Slavery was a big motivator, both economically and socially, but there were other economic, sociopolitical and even philosophical aspects behind it as well. Many (not all, of course, but many) of the Confederate fighters - including the African-American ones, and Robert E. Lee himself - were simply supporting their homeland out of a sense of patriotism and their state's rights to autonomy (back then, the common mindset was that you were a Texan or a Virginian before you were an American.) It can and has also been argued that the Union had no right, under the Constitution, to prevent the secession. Is it a good thing they did? Probably.
Now, I'm not saying it's totally invalid to see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, because that is mixed up in its history. But in many cases, that's not the intent of the one who displays it: more often, I think it's meant to be a symbol of Southern identity and history. "This is where I'm from, for good or bad." While that notion of loyalty to the land is rather alien to me personally, it is a major factor in this part of American history.
People will always see what they want to see in these things, though.
Saying the Civil War was about NOTHING but slavery is a bit like saying the Crusades were about religion and only religion. Slavery was a big motivator, both economically and socially, but there were other economic, sociopolitical and even philosophical aspects behind it as well. Many (not all, of course, but many) of the Confederate fighters - including the African-American ones, and Robert E. Lee himself - were simply supporting their homeland out of a sense of patriotism and their state's rights to autonomy (back then, the common mindset was that you were a Texan or a Virginian before you were an American.) It can and has also been argued that the Union had no right, under the Constitution, to prevent the secession. Is it a good thing they did? Probably.
Now, I'm not saying it's totally invalid to see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, because that is mixed up in its history. But in many cases, that's not the intent of the one who displays it: more often, I think it's meant to be a symbol of Southern identity and history. "This is where I'm from, for good or bad." While that notion of loyalty to the land is rather alien to me personally, it is a major factor in this part of American history.
People will always see what they want to see in these things, though.
A piece of American history?
As a New Zealander, I have no particular cultural interest in it (I've actually read this entire thread, and learned a lot about how much contention this flag seems to cause!).
I will agree with the others here who have said that, viewed purely as a design (with no attached historical/cultural implications), it is nicer and more pleasing to the eye than the Stars and Stripes.
I have nothing to add to the historical discussion, but it seems to me that that wasn't the point of the thread anyway. Interesting to read nonetheless.
As a New Zealander, I have no particular cultural interest in it (I've actually read this entire thread, and learned a lot about how much contention this flag seems to cause!).
I will agree with the others here who have said that, viewed purely as a design (with no attached historical/cultural implications), it is nicer and more pleasing to the eye than the Stars and Stripes.
I have nothing to add to the historical discussion, but it seems to me that that wasn't the point of the thread anyway. Interesting to read nonetheless.
I'd like to point out how, whenever this topic comes up, people who don't like the South's bigoted ways immediately resort to calling Southerners "hicks", "Dumb rednecks", etc... and show thorough hatred for an entire group of people they may or may not have ever actually gotten to know.
OT: The Confederate flag represents the symbol of a group of people fighting for the right to conduct themselves freely and the best way they saw fit. Its tragic that they (southerners who WEREN'T slave owners; ie; the vast majority) were forced to fight the war over states rights on an issue they were absolutely on the wrong moral side of, but I admire the goal of fighting for one's own freedom.
OT: The Confederate flag represents the symbol of a group of people fighting for the right to conduct themselves freely and the best way they saw fit. Its tragic that they (southerners who WEREN'T slave owners; ie; the vast majority) were forced to fight the war over states rights on an issue they were absolutely on the wrong moral side of, but I admire the goal of fighting for one's own freedom.
I've posted in this thread, and I've lost track of the last 3 pages but I will say this to all of those who dislike the confederate battle flag.
Go watch "Gods and Generals"
That movie is why I have on occasion flown the stars and bars at my ranch way out in southwest Texas. To me, the flag represents those young men who fought and wore the gray of the confederacy. See to me the flag doesn't mean slavery or anything of that matter, but rather the struggle of those young men who fought for the south.
I might have a weird opinion of the matter because my great great grandads on each side of my family fought on opposing sides of the war. I had no racist or malintent when I raised those colors and saw them flutter in the wind.
Though as a disclaimer and true to fact, I didn't fly those colors on my house or anything, we have a ranch out in the middle of no where that I flew the colors for a day. After wards I put them away and raised the American flag with the Texas flag under it. In all honesty I wouldn't fly the confederate flags (any of them) in view of anybody but myself and my immediate family (though they didn't like it.) I'm a history buff and it really gets to you to see something so old and antique be flown again when people really know what happened during that dreadful war.
I don't know, that's just my two cents on the matter.
Go watch "Gods and Generals"
That movie is why I have on occasion flown the stars and bars at my ranch way out in southwest Texas. To me, the flag represents those young men who fought and wore the gray of the confederacy. See to me the flag doesn't mean slavery or anything of that matter, but rather the struggle of those young men who fought for the south.
I might have a weird opinion of the matter because my great great grandads on each side of my family fought on opposing sides of the war. I had no racist or malintent when I raised those colors and saw them flutter in the wind.
Though as a disclaimer and true to fact, I didn't fly those colors on my house or anything, we have a ranch out in the middle of no where that I flew the colors for a day. After wards I put them away and raised the American flag with the Texas flag under it. In all honesty I wouldn't fly the confederate flags (any of them) in view of anybody but myself and my immediate family (though they didn't like it.) I'm a history buff and it really gets to you to see something so old and antique be flown again when people really know what happened during that dreadful war.
I don't know, that's just my two cents on the matter.
I just love the fact that they claim they're in the right and "those damned inbreeding rednecks" just love to hate other people. Don't you love the hypocrisy in people?FaithorFire said: