What does the Confederate flag represent to you?
- Thread starter Baron Von Evil Satan
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And Jefferson Davis (president) saw that emancipation would come in a generation or two regardless, and used the Confederacy as a means to get black people ready to integrate on an equal footing so as to not cause many generations of underprivileged lower class that would be exploited by others. What's your point?Nurb said:
Growing up in East Texas, and the purportedly "Oldest Town in Texas", I've seen the Confederate flag so often that it's pretty much stopped registering. In and of itself, I don't see it as being especially racist, though I sometimes question the sense and taste of those who display on every surface in their homes.
Saying the Civil War was about NOTHING but slavery is a bit like saying the Crusades were about religion and only religion. Slavery was a big motivator, both economically and socially, but there were other economic, sociopolitical and even philosophical aspects behind it as well. Many (not all, of course, but many) of the Confederate fighters - including the African-American ones, and Robert E. Lee himself - were simply supporting their homeland out of a sense of patriotism and their state's rights to autonomy (back then, the common mindset was that you were a Texan or a Virginian before you were an American.) It can and has also been argued that the Union had no right, under the Constitution, to prevent the secession. Is it a good thing they did? Probably.
Now, I'm not saying it's totally invalid to see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, because that is mixed up in its history. But in many cases, that's not the intent of the one who displays it: more often, I think it's meant to be a symbol of Southern identity and history. "This is where I'm from, for good or bad." While that notion of loyalty to the land is rather alien to me personally, it is a major factor in this part of American history.
People will always see what they want to see in these things, though.
Saying the Civil War was about NOTHING but slavery is a bit like saying the Crusades were about religion and only religion. Slavery was a big motivator, both economically and socially, but there were other economic, sociopolitical and even philosophical aspects behind it as well. Many (not all, of course, but many) of the Confederate fighters - including the African-American ones, and Robert E. Lee himself - were simply supporting their homeland out of a sense of patriotism and their state's rights to autonomy (back then, the common mindset was that you were a Texan or a Virginian before you were an American.) It can and has also been argued that the Union had no right, under the Constitution, to prevent the secession. Is it a good thing they did? Probably.
Now, I'm not saying it's totally invalid to see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, because that is mixed up in its history. But in many cases, that's not the intent of the one who displays it: more often, I think it's meant to be a symbol of Southern identity and history. "This is where I'm from, for good or bad." While that notion of loyalty to the land is rather alien to me personally, it is a major factor in this part of American history.
People will always see what they want to see in these things, though.
A piece of American history?
As a New Zealander, I have no particular cultural interest in it (I've actually read this entire thread, and learned a lot about how much contention this flag seems to cause!).
I will agree with the others here who have said that, viewed purely as a design (with no attached historical/cultural implications), it is nicer and more pleasing to the eye than the Stars and Stripes.
I have nothing to add to the historical discussion, but it seems to me that that wasn't the point of the thread anyway. Interesting to read nonetheless.
As a New Zealander, I have no particular cultural interest in it (I've actually read this entire thread, and learned a lot about how much contention this flag seems to cause!).
I will agree with the others here who have said that, viewed purely as a design (with no attached historical/cultural implications), it is nicer and more pleasing to the eye than the Stars and Stripes.
I have nothing to add to the historical discussion, but it seems to me that that wasn't the point of the thread anyway. Interesting to read nonetheless.
I'd like to point out how, whenever this topic comes up, people who don't like the South's bigoted ways immediately resort to calling Southerners "hicks", "Dumb rednecks", etc... and show thorough hatred for an entire group of people they may or may not have ever actually gotten to know.
OT: The Confederate flag represents the symbol of a group of people fighting for the right to conduct themselves freely and the best way they saw fit. Its tragic that they (southerners who WEREN'T slave owners; ie; the vast majority) were forced to fight the war over states rights on an issue they were absolutely on the wrong moral side of, but I admire the goal of fighting for one's own freedom.
OT: The Confederate flag represents the symbol of a group of people fighting for the right to conduct themselves freely and the best way they saw fit. Its tragic that they (southerners who WEREN'T slave owners; ie; the vast majority) were forced to fight the war over states rights on an issue they were absolutely on the wrong moral side of, but I admire the goal of fighting for one's own freedom.
I've posted in this thread, and I've lost track of the last 3 pages but I will say this to all of those who dislike the confederate battle flag.
Go watch "Gods and Generals"
That movie is why I have on occasion flown the stars and bars at my ranch way out in southwest Texas. To me, the flag represents those young men who fought and wore the gray of the confederacy. See to me the flag doesn't mean slavery or anything of that matter, but rather the struggle of those young men who fought for the south.
I might have a weird opinion of the matter because my great great grandads on each side of my family fought on opposing sides of the war. I had no racist or malintent when I raised those colors and saw them flutter in the wind.
Though as a disclaimer and true to fact, I didn't fly those colors on my house or anything, we have a ranch out in the middle of no where that I flew the colors for a day. After wards I put them away and raised the American flag with the Texas flag under it. In all honesty I wouldn't fly the confederate flags (any of them) in view of anybody but myself and my immediate family (though they didn't like it.) I'm a history buff and it really gets to you to see something so old and antique be flown again when people really know what happened during that dreadful war.
I don't know, that's just my two cents on the matter.
Go watch "Gods and Generals"
That movie is why I have on occasion flown the stars and bars at my ranch way out in southwest Texas. To me, the flag represents those young men who fought and wore the gray of the confederacy. See to me the flag doesn't mean slavery or anything of that matter, but rather the struggle of those young men who fought for the south.
I might have a weird opinion of the matter because my great great grandads on each side of my family fought on opposing sides of the war. I had no racist or malintent when I raised those colors and saw them flutter in the wind.
Though as a disclaimer and true to fact, I didn't fly those colors on my house or anything, we have a ranch out in the middle of no where that I flew the colors for a day. After wards I put them away and raised the American flag with the Texas flag under it. In all honesty I wouldn't fly the confederate flags (any of them) in view of anybody but myself and my immediate family (though they didn't like it.) I'm a history buff and it really gets to you to see something so old and antique be flown again when people really know what happened during that dreadful war.
I don't know, that's just my two cents on the matter.
I just love the fact that they claim they're in the right and "those damned inbreeding rednecks" just love to hate other people. Don't you love the hypocrisy in people?FaithorFire said:
Look, I get that for a lot of southerners today the confederate flag is about independence, rebellion and regional pride. So I don't get pissed off at people that display it.
That being said, the civil war was absolutely about slavery. All that garbage about states rights and crap was the lies the rich and powerful southerners told the poor ones that would be doing the actual dying on the front. See, they might not have had a big problem with slavery, but most of them would have been willing to die for it.
Anyway, if you actually look at the history from the time period leading up the the civil war, you would notice that southern democrats had almost all of the power. One of the reasons the north was willing to fight the war at all was because the south had been making serious, largely successful, efforts to functionally force slavery onto states that had outlawed it, and the north was afraid that if the south became independent they might become even more powerful, and thus even more successful in those efforts. Slavery might not have been the only issue on which the north and south disagreed, but it was the only one they were willing to kill each other over, and thus it is the only one responsible for the civil war.
I have nothing against the south of today. My family was all too far out west already by that point to really identify with either side in that particular conflict, but the south of the civil war was the last bastion of legal slavery in the western world, and they absolutely deserved to get their asses handed to them. The north wasn't particularly good, in fact they were frequently downright horrible, but the south was absolutely and totally unequivocally wrong. That's okay though. Hitler was wrong too, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with modern Germany. As a matter of fact, it's a pretty cool place. But the south of today needs to come to terms with what they really were before I can respect their desire to wave that flag around. I don't blame individuals that don't understand or believe what it really means, but as long as they don't this discussion needs to continue, because the people pointing out how horrible it is are right until someone really changes what it means, which I don't think can be done until the people who use it admit it needs changing.
That being said, the civil war was absolutely about slavery. All that garbage about states rights and crap was the lies the rich and powerful southerners told the poor ones that would be doing the actual dying on the front. See, they might not have had a big problem with slavery, but most of them would have been willing to die for it.
Anyway, if you actually look at the history from the time period leading up the the civil war, you would notice that southern democrats had almost all of the power. One of the reasons the north was willing to fight the war at all was because the south had been making serious, largely successful, efforts to functionally force slavery onto states that had outlawed it, and the north was afraid that if the south became independent they might become even more powerful, and thus even more successful in those efforts. Slavery might not have been the only issue on which the north and south disagreed, but it was the only one they were willing to kill each other over, and thus it is the only one responsible for the civil war.
I have nothing against the south of today. My family was all too far out west already by that point to really identify with either side in that particular conflict, but the south of the civil war was the last bastion of legal slavery in the western world, and they absolutely deserved to get their asses handed to them. The north wasn't particularly good, in fact they were frequently downright horrible, but the south was absolutely and totally unequivocally wrong. That's okay though. Hitler was wrong too, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with modern Germany. As a matter of fact, it's a pretty cool place. But the south of today needs to come to terms with what they really were before I can respect their desire to wave that flag around. I don't blame individuals that don't understand or believe what it really means, but as long as they don't this discussion needs to continue, because the people pointing out how horrible it is are right until someone really changes what it means, which I don't think can be done until the people who use it admit it needs changing.
To me it makes me think of rednecks and hicks, so maybe it represents Kid Rock perfectly. I think that its meaning has certainly been re-purposed by those who use the symbol today, much like the national colors of Jamaica have been made to suggest a person who smokes marijuana. However, this is coming from a white kid from the Midwest, so others might have a differing opinion.
Actually, much of the north had problems with slavery before the civil war. They were well known as "abolitionists". Also, one black guy doesn't suddenly not make the south's reasons for slavery racist. I can also top you with the fact that there were multiple battalions that consisted of mostly black soldiers in the union army.this isnt my name said:I am not American so dont expect much, but didnt the union have no issue with slavery until they went to war with the south and used it as an excuse ?
To me it symbolises people who disagreed with their government (iirc the southerners majority votes were ignored) and fought for what they belived in, before losing and being demonized so the government could take the moral highground...
Also I wish they swapped flags, be3cuase I like the confederate flag mor4 than the US flag, it looks nicer.
Also they cant ***** about it being racist becuase I can counter it with one thing.
THIS GUY
H.K Edgerton former president of the NAACP's Asheville, North Carolina branch.
Maybe I'm just judgmental, I think of outdated ideals and stubborn ignorance. I live in Missouri so I frequently see pickup trucks with the confederate flag, and it significantly lessens how much respect I have for the individual who drive it. It's an old symbol whose history is rooted in discontentment and hatred. That's what it means to me.
To me the confederate flag represents misguidance. The confederacy was a group of people thinking they were doing something great when in reality they were doing something evil. They thought they were fighting for states rights from a corrupt government but in reality the government just disagreed with their stance on making people into property. Robert E. Lee only joined the confederates because Virginia was in the confederacy and the man actually was disgusted by it. But the leaders of the confederacy sent him to lead hundreds of men to their deaths to serves their own rather selfish needs.
Treason. Plain and simple, a group of states who would rather separate from the rest of the country than move forward with basic rights for human beings.
Care to back that up?Nurb said:
The states wanted more rights instead of giving federal government complete power. Abolishing slavery from the South wasn't even considered till 1863, 2 years after the war started.
Over half of the South were against slavery because of the amount of jobs it took from them, let alone the fact that they couldn't even afford one.