PinochetIsMyBro said:
Troublesome Lagomorph said:
My previous post is for your benefit as well, I see.bl4ckh4wk64 said:
What does the Confederate flag represent to you?
- Thread starter Baron Von Evil Satan
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Rednecks, Hicks and KKK members using it intimidate people. Also represents a massive spectre from Americas past still making it presence felt.
I think the heart of the issue is that it's an ANTI-AMERICAN symbol. Just like with socialism, people lose their shit over it for no logical reason.
OT: To me, it represents the independent and rebellious spirit of the southern US. However, it also represents an outdated method of thinking, and ultimately, failure.
OT: To me, it represents the independent and rebellious spirit of the southern US. However, it also represents an outdated method of thinking, and ultimately, failure.
The Confederate flag, to me, does not necessarily represent racism.
What I do feel it represents is a blatant insult to the United States of America. Every single state, whether southern or northern, is a part of a single country. The Confederate flag represents an upstart coalition of states that tried to secede from the Union. I don't care whether it was for slavery, economics, states' rights, or because they hated those goddamn yanks.
Waving that flag is akin to waving the Mexican flag at a rally protesting immigration/deportation laws. If you're waving the Mexican flag while protesting the government of the USA, your credibility as a citizen of the USA goes right out the damn window. Why should we listen to someone complaining about living in America when they're displaying a different country's colors? If you like that country so much, get the hell out of America and go back to it.
Similarly, if you proudly display your Confederate flag as brazenly as possible, my first thought is that you wish you didn't live in the USA right now, but the Confederate States of America. Last time I checked, that country didn't exist. Confederate flag-wavers are proclaiming their pride in identifying with a non-existent country that fought and lost against the USA, nearly damaging the cohesion of the country beyond repair. I don't care if you "wish you'da won the Civil War". You live in America. Wave the flag of the country you're living in, not the long-dead upstart government that nearly tore the nation apart.
What I do feel it represents is a blatant insult to the United States of America. Every single state, whether southern or northern, is a part of a single country. The Confederate flag represents an upstart coalition of states that tried to secede from the Union. I don't care whether it was for slavery, economics, states' rights, or because they hated those goddamn yanks.
Waving that flag is akin to waving the Mexican flag at a rally protesting immigration/deportation laws. If you're waving the Mexican flag while protesting the government of the USA, your credibility as a citizen of the USA goes right out the damn window. Why should we listen to someone complaining about living in America when they're displaying a different country's colors? If you like that country so much, get the hell out of America and go back to it.
Similarly, if you proudly display your Confederate flag as brazenly as possible, my first thought is that you wish you didn't live in the USA right now, but the Confederate States of America. Last time I checked, that country didn't exist. Confederate flag-wavers are proclaiming their pride in identifying with a non-existent country that fought and lost against the USA, nearly damaging the cohesion of the country beyond repair. I don't care if you "wish you'da won the Civil War". You live in America. Wave the flag of the country you're living in, not the long-dead upstart government that nearly tore the nation apart.
To me? It represents states' rights, and in a more symbolic nature, a unified flag that represents a more independent less-centralized form of power to oppose the American flag, which in my mind represents one large centralized form of power. It's a duality thing, which is exactly why my old class ring has an American flag on one side, and a confederate flag on the other.
The civil war was not fought over slavery alone. The people who claim that slavery was the only reason, or that it wasn't a reason or all, are wrong. It ties in heavily, but it's certainly not the only reason. That, however, shouldn't matter. Today, nobody here supports slavery (Or, no sane person, anyway. Hell, even the KKK doesn't go around saying it should be reinstated).
As a result of this, I feel the flag can keep all it's other meanings without being considered a "hey everybody, let's make slavery legal again!" symbol. Because, let's face it, a vast majority of people who use it don't support slavery, or even racism. They use it for other reasons- mainly southern ideals and occasionally other minor things, like a symbol of southern rock or what have you.
I would not call it an anti-American symbol. The CSA might have been anti-American, but they were following American ideals to the letter, even if for all the wrong reasons. They felt they weren't being represented, they felt trade policies heavily favoured the industrial north over the rural south, and they feared things would only get worse for them. So, they did the American thing to do- say "To hell with this, I'm leaving and making my own country". In all honesty, had I been alive at the time, I would have supported them if not for the whole slavery thing.
The civil war was not fought over slavery alone. The people who claim that slavery was the only reason, or that it wasn't a reason or all, are wrong. It ties in heavily, but it's certainly not the only reason. That, however, shouldn't matter. Today, nobody here supports slavery (Or, no sane person, anyway. Hell, even the KKK doesn't go around saying it should be reinstated).
As a result of this, I feel the flag can keep all it's other meanings without being considered a "hey everybody, let's make slavery legal again!" symbol. Because, let's face it, a vast majority of people who use it don't support slavery, or even racism. They use it for other reasons- mainly southern ideals and occasionally other minor things, like a symbol of southern rock or what have you.
I would not call it an anti-American symbol. The CSA might have been anti-American, but they were following American ideals to the letter, even if for all the wrong reasons. They felt they weren't being represented, they felt trade policies heavily favoured the industrial north over the rural south, and they feared things would only get worse for them. So, they did the American thing to do- say "To hell with this, I'm leaving and making my own country". In all honesty, had I been alive at the time, I would have supported them if not for the whole slavery thing.
It represents a piece of my nation's history, primarily the Civil War (of course). That's about it.
It was considered a fact back then that black people weren't humans at all or some kind of lesser human being. Moral judgement requirres knowledge of all the facts. The problem is that facts CHANGE. Back then every scientists you'd ask would have told you that slavery was perfectly fine because it was in the natural order. They did not know it any better.Jedihunter4 said:
And without knowing all the facts they could not make another moral judgement. Which makes their judgement, their morals depend on the time they live in.
Confederate flag = Slavery. That's how its been portrayed here at least. It might mean something else but I'm not an American so I wouldn't know.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/local-opinions/2010/10/the_myth_of_the_black_confeder.htmlCannibalRobots said:
The short closing paragraphs:
"After months of heated debate, a severely watered-down version of this proposal became Confederate law in March of 1865. Gen. Richard S. Ewell assumed responsibility for implementing it, and Confederate officials and journalists confidently predicted the enlistment of thousands. But the actual results proved bitterly disappointing. A dwarf company or two of black hospital workers was attached to a unit of a local Richmond home guard just a few weeks before the war's end. The regular Confederate army apparently managed to recruit another 40 to 60 men -- men whom it drilled, fed, and housed at military prison facilities under the watchful eyes of military police and wardens -- reflecting how little confidence the government and army had in the loyalty of their last-minute recruits.
This strikingly unsuccessful last-ditch effort, furthermore, constituted the sole exception to the Confederacy's steadfast refusal to employ African American soldiers. As Gen. Ewell's longtime aide-de-camp, Maj. George Campbell Brown, later affirmed, the handful of black soldiers mustered in Richmond in 1865 were "the first and only black troops used on our side."
The writer is a professor of history and African American studies at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. This column is adapted from a piece that appeared in the Fredericksburg, Va., Free Lance-Star in September."
As affirmed by my own research as a history major here in Texas, the total number of Blacks in the Confederate military of this state in 1865 numbered less than 100, including all slaves serving their masters in the field. They were apparently so mistrusted that by the end of the war there was grave concern at the idea of even letting them near weapons much less giving them one, so powerful was the fear, with federal troops so close to victory, that the (ex-)slaves would turn rebel against Confederate authority. The story that there were thousands of blacks serving in the Confederate military by the end of the war, as best as I and my colleagues have been able to find in the primary documents of the time, was a myth invented during the civil rights era of the 1950s and 60s, presumably to make the Confederate South seem less racist in hindsight.
By the time of the Civil war, Slavery had already been abolished in every European and American nation except the US, and the Slave-owning South broke away out of fear that the Northern non-Slave states were plotting to use their influence in Congress and the presidency to abolish it in the US, too (which they thought would destroy their livelihoods). By 1860, slavery was an anachronism, a remnant of European colonial policies, kept alive only by its profitability and the heavily embedded racism within the US, particularly the slave-owning South.Exterminas said:
As much as I like Lynyrd Skynyrd I will respectfully disagree with you. Seeing as the majority of the world associate it with racism, it has become a symbol of racism. Just as the swastika, no matter which form it comes in, no longer is associated with the sun, but with the nazis. Doesn't matter what it really represents, but what people think it does.
EDIT: I'm not saying it is a symbol of racism to me, only to most other people. For me it tickles my historical curiosity making me want to learn about the civil war and its reasons, and Lynyrd Skynyrd =)
EDIT: I'm not saying it is a symbol of racism to me, only to most other people. For me it tickles my historical curiosity making me want to learn about the civil war and its reasons, and Lynyrd Skynyrd =)
To me, the Confederate flag represents freedom of choice, but the idea of abusing that right by making some pretty bad choices.
It also represents the fact that those following the Confederates during the Civil War had the sheer gall and backwards thinking to fight for their right to force others into pay free labor, while at the same time thinking that they are an inferior race of humans. That's not just bad, that's ideals bordering on Nazi-ism. :\
Not to mention they were responsible for the death of one of the greatest presidents of all time, in my opinion. Ok, maybe not the Confederates themselves or it's flag were specifically, but because they attempted to secede and started that stupid war, it ultimately resulted in that happening.
It also represents the fact that those following the Confederates during the Civil War had the sheer gall and backwards thinking to fight for their right to force others into pay free labor, while at the same time thinking that they are an inferior race of humans. That's not just bad, that's ideals bordering on Nazi-ism. :\
Not to mention they were responsible for the death of one of the greatest presidents of all time, in my opinion. Ok, maybe not the Confederates themselves or it's flag were specifically, but because they attempted to secede and started that stupid war, it ultimately resulted in that happening.