Sure, it's called fact. Jefferson Davis taught his slaves to read and write and to have advanced skills so that they could integrate into society. But you won't believe it since you are obviously very biased.Nurb said:
What does the Confederate flag represent to you?
- Thread starter Baron Von Evil Satan
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To me it doesn't represent Bigotry and racism but to other people it does where I live people use it as a symbol of "southern pride" but the funny thing is how can they have southern pride when most of them have lived in this same town for most of their lives and we live in FUCKING OREGON.
Right right, They spent large sums of money to own people out of the goodness of their hearts, and intended to release them despite their constitution saying their natural status is submission to the white man. I'm surprised they didn't realize they could teach people without owning them.crimson5pheonix said:
I love that you think calling someone who points out craziness a bigot actually makes yours disappear. Stop listening to talkshow hosts, I hear this from conservatives who parrot words when they have no clue about their proper use and definition... like saying communism, socialism, and fascism are the same thing.
Are you being sarcastic?
I'm calling you that because you're painting both sides as taking 1 stance. Were there racists in the South who saw them being slaves as their proper place? Sure, you put 1 of them forward. Were there Southerners who saw them as people and fully expected them to integrate? You bet. Were there Northerners who saw slavery as entirely immoral and evil? Yup. Were there Northern racists who despised blacks but didn't want the South to secede for other reasons? Of course, Lincoln was one of them.Nurb said:
There are actually *gasp* shades of grey in the conflict. So yes, you are a bigot because you see both sides as having only 1 ideal each.
I'm saying the north would have tolerated slavery if the south didn't flip their shit, thinking licoln was going to pass a federal law that would repeal chattalhood and in turn hurt their economy, and try to leave the union over it. I'm also saying if people put the past behind them, then they wouldn't still be clinging to a flag that was flown by people killing US soldiers at the time. If they dumped the flag, they'd stop getting so much shit and people who call themselves 'real Americans' shouldn't be defending a flag that is not American. You don't wave a flag that represented a failed nation that wared with your own.crimson5pheonix said:
Say that more clearly first then, you come off as saying the South was nothing but evil and the North was nothing but good. Both sides were different flavors of different and nothing more.Nurb said:
As long as Anti-confederate sentiment doesn't translate to anti-Lynyrd Skynyrd sentiment,I can take it or leave it.
Well as I see them even in the middle-west part of Ohio (part of the Union during the civil war and even its slavery allowing southern neighbor Kentucky remained in the Union) I see the the Confederate flag to be a symbol of stupidity whenever I see someone who is not from the South. Otherwise I just see it as a symbol of regional pride, just like a football jersey or a MLB baseball hat can be.
If I don't know the person, to me it represents:
Ignorance
Bigotry
Hicks
Rednecks
Racism
Slavery
Treason and betrayal
Stupidity
More importantly, and more infuriatingly, the absolute pinnacle of political immaturity, because, as we ALL know, if you lose a MAJORITY vote want in a DEMOCRATIC society, you should BREAK AWAY then ATTACK who you formerly broke off of when they are merely asking to keep FEDERAL property.
It was born in slavery and ignorance, made their mistake in slavery and ignorance, and died in their own waste.
Take my words with a grain of salt; I AM a liberal.
A liberal African American.
A liberal African American who lives in Illinois.
You know what? Scratch that. Take my words with a cup of salt.
Ignorance
Bigotry
Hicks
Rednecks
Racism
Slavery
Treason and betrayal
Stupidity
More importantly, and more infuriatingly, the absolute pinnacle of political immaturity, because, as we ALL know, if you lose a MAJORITY vote want in a DEMOCRATIC society, you should BREAK AWAY then ATTACK who you formerly broke off of when they are merely asking to keep FEDERAL property.
It was born in slavery and ignorance, made their mistake in slavery and ignorance, and died in their own waste.
Take my words with a grain of salt; I AM a liberal.
A liberal African American.
A liberal African American who lives in Illinois.
You know what? Scratch that. Take my words with a cup of salt.
Meaning what? You hate that some people stop posting when they realize they've been proven wrong (a practice you seem to disagree with)? Or that people who repeat hearsay and revisionist history occasionally get knocked around by actual primary document proof that they're wrong?velcrokidneyz said:
Say what you will about what the flag means to you, that is opinion and you have every right to it. No one, however, has a right to their own facts, and the fact is that in document [http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Georgia] after document [http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Mississippi] after document [http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Texas] the South, the Confederate government, and the individual Confederate states explicitly cited the protection of Slavery and the "natural and moral condition" of the "African Race" as subservient to the "White Race" as their reasons for leaving the Union. If states' rights were really the issue, Mississippi would not have explicitly listed the fact that Northern States had fought for Nullification [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_of_1850#Nullification] of the federal Fugitive Slave Act which required Northern police to capture and return to their masters all runaway slaves.
It represents bigotry, racism, and a failed idea of how government should work (to me at least). I honestly get embarrassed when I'm with someone from out of state and we see a guy with the bars and stars on his truck. I'm in Indiana- why the hell do rednecks feel the need to have the flag on their stuff? While terribly racist after WWII, we were definitely on the North during the Civil War.
I get the rebellion thing. I get the southern rock thing. Both of those are interesting and worth celebrating. But to be honest, its the same as associating the Nazi flag with strong government and efficient military tactics. You miss the terrible bigoted idiocy underneath and you can't really separate the two.
Sidenote: Calling the Civil War "The War of Northern Aggression" is one of the more laughable things someone can do. It immediately throws your credibility out the window.
I get the rebellion thing. I get the southern rock thing. Both of those are interesting and worth celebrating. But to be honest, its the same as associating the Nazi flag with strong government and efficient military tactics. You miss the terrible bigoted idiocy underneath and you can't really separate the two.
Sidenote: Calling the Civil War "The War of Northern Aggression" is one of the more laughable things someone can do. It immediately throws your credibility out the window.
I agree with you there. Just many people are afraid of losing that sense of identity. I identify myself as English because it gives other people a very quick over view of my basic background. Ideally I think it would be great if we could all just be citizens of earth rather than of different countries. I'd like to think we're evolved enough as a species and a society to leave that all behind. Wise enough to leave war behind, but sadly this is just idealistic hippie bullshit :/Verlander said:That's completely 100% my opinion as well. It's almost like people didn't see Independence Day!Boundless Apathy said:
Oh for sure, but those identities are borrowed at best. I think it's one of the things that makes Britain so great is the melting pot of cultures and our fairly erratic history. It's all opinion thoughTechno Squidgy said:I think the refusal of the identification of British is the fear of the loss of the further identification as English, Scottish, Welsh, etc.
EDIT: Also I find it funny that it's considered a country made up of countries. Mad stuff