What does the Confederate flag represent to you?

[Comrade_Beric]

By the time of the Civil war, Slavery had already been abolished in every European and American nation except the US

errrm sorry but Holding a person in slavery became illegal in the UK on 6 April 2010 ;D

http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/mythbusters/3985/slavery.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

Trying to argue that this somehow did not represent abolition of slavery because they made tiny exceptions is like arguing that Mexico has never abolished slavery because their constitution contained an exception for Anglos living in Texas (pushed through to try to prevent said Anglos from breaking away, which they did anyway). Slavery was an anachronism for decades before the Civil War.

 

[NickCooley]

Well it meant nothing to me before this thread but reading through it now to me it represents how a nation only a few centuries old still cant decide what their sodding civil war was fought for.

Haha I take it your not American then? Where are you from? I've always been curious as to what other countries thought of our war and what they hear/learn about it

I'm from the UK. The only American History we did at my school was just before, during and just after the Great Depression which was surprisingly interesting but I've forgotten a lot and the Vietnam War which was also interesting but also very depressing. No one left those particular classes with a smile on their face.

As for the American Civil War I only know what I've come across myself. Which is very little if I'm being honest. The only figures I can name off the top of my head are Robert E Lee and Abraham Lincoln. I can't say I have any strong thoughts on the war either way. While I certainly think Slavery should be eradicated I can't honestly say a populace shouldn't be allowed to secede. The best I can say is that the American Civil War was an American issue that should have been and thankfully was left to Americans to solve.

 

[creager91]

Well it meant nothing to me before this thread but reading through it now to me it represents how a nation only a few centuries old still cant decide what their sodding civil war was fought for.

Haha I take it your not American then? Where are you from? I've always been curious as to what other countries thought of our war and what they hear/learn about it

I'm from the UK. The only American History we did at my school was just before, during and just after the Great Depression which was surprisingly interesting but I've forgotten a lot and the Vietnam War which was also interesting but also very depressing. No one left those particular classes with a smile on their face.

As for the American Civil War I only know what I've come across myself. Which is very little if I'm being honest. The only figures I can name off the top of my head are Robert E Lee and Abraham Lincoln. I can't say I have any strong thoughts on the war either way. While I certainly think Slavery should be eradicated I can't honestly say a populace shouldn't be allowed to secede. The best I can say is that the American Civil War was an American issue that should have been and thankfully was left to Americans to solve.

I guess the best comparison I can give you is when the American Colonies decided to declare their independence from Britain.(btw do you mean like England UK or one of the other countries? I believe the UK relates to the whole island doesnt it? , I'm probably wrong but i've wondered this for a little while) Except the North actually cared and had a reason for wanting the South to stay (northern economy was pretty much based on the cotton from the south) where as Britain didn't really care that much and was kind of preoccupied with matters more close to home.

The way ive seen it is that we Americans were kind of the bratty spoiled child and britain was extremely fair in all their laws and they did protect the colonies. Include the fact that the colonies did have a representative who albeit was wildly out of touch with the colonies it didnt matter because most colonists weren't actually forced to pay taxes if they didnt want to. Then When Britain tried to stop the smuggling of tea by offering us cheaper better quality tea we threw it in the ocean. Well I'm still proud to be American even if we really were founded by a group of over reacting children haha

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

This is all I think of:

Spoiler

RIP Dimebag, the awesome bearded Texan.

Well, I suppose it could be taken in offense, but I think it's mainly just used to show pride. Whilst I know the South (quite deservedly, I suspect) gets quite a bad rap, I can still respect people having pride in where they come from.

And the word confederacy just reminds me of Star Wars.

 

[m@]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

Trying to argue that this somehow did not represent abolition of slavery because they made tiny exceptions is like arguing that Mexico has never abolished slavery because their constitution contained an exception for Anglos living in Texas (pushed through to try to prevent said Anglos from breaking away, which they did anyway). Slavery was an anachronism for decades before the Civil War.

lol it was just a joke, although technically true so

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

Well it meant nothing to me before this thread but reading through it now to me it represents how a nation only a few centuries old still cant decide what their sodding civil war was fought for.

Haha I take it your not American then? Where are you from? I've always been curious as to what other countries thought of our war and what they hear/learn about it

I'm from the UK. The only American History we did at my school was just before, during and just after the Great Depression which was surprisingly interesting but I've forgotten a lot and the Vietnam War which was also interesting but also very depressing. No one left those particular classes with a smile on their face.

As for the American Civil War I only know what I've come across myself. Which is very little if I'm being honest. The only figures I can name off the top of my head are Robert E Lee and Abraham Lincoln. I can't say I have any strong thoughts on the war either way. While I certainly think Slavery should be eradicated I can't honestly say a populace shouldn't be allowed to secede. The best I can say is that the American Civil War was an American issue that should have been and thankfully was left to Americans to solve.

I guess the best comparison I can give you is when the American Colonies decided to declare their independence from Britain.(btw do you mean like England UK or one of the other countries? I believe the UK relates to the whole island doesnt it? , I'm probably wrong but i've wondered this for a little while) Except the North actually cared and had a reason for wanting the South to stay (northern economy was pretty much based on the cotton from the south) where as Britain didn't really care that much and was kind of preoccupied with matters more close to home.

The way ive seen it is that we Americans were kind of the bratty spoiled child and britain was extremely fair in all their laws and they did protect the colonies. Include the fact that the colonies did have a representative who albeit was wildly out of touch with the colonies it didnt matter because most colonists weren't actually forced to pay taxes if they didnt want to. Then When Britain tried to stop the smuggling of tea by offering us cheaper better quality tea we threw it in the ocean. Well I'm still proud to be American even if we really were founded by a group of over reacting children haha

What? There was a reason the 13 colonies broke ties with the U.K. Initially we didn't have that many problems with the English passing taxs on external trade. It's just when we started to get taxs on internal trade to help pay for the English wars (including the French and Indian war, which is known as something else over in Europe, King George's war I believe?) that the American colonist fought in but got nothing from. The American Revolution was caused by a lot of bad blood that some colonists had towards England due to some recent events (the above-mentioned economic reasons, the Proclamation Line of 1763, certain views from each side towards the other, and the heavy-handedness of certain British actions in the colonies).

You have a point that it wasn't some big uprising amongst the liberty loving colonists against the tyranny of the English Crown. The lines in the colonies were split about 33%/33%/33% in terms of who wanted independence, who were still loyal to the Crown, and who didn't care that strongly one way or the other. And the real fire starters (the "Sons of Liberty" who started the whole uprising in New England) were rather radical or had economic reasons for secession.

You can see some of the reasons why Americans broke off from England in some of the Amendments in our Constitution: Freedom of Protest, Freedom of Assembly, Right to a fair trial, no cruel and unusual punishments, no quartering of troops. Right to bear arms (a hot topic in today's US) was probably to help make sure that the population rise up should a tyranny take control that the people didn't like (mind you, some wanted to crown George Washington king, we might have been a monarchy had he accepted); which is why it's someone archaic in today's world.

 

[Daveeo]

Rednecks,moonshine and the american civil war.

 

[creager91]

Well it meant nothing to me before this thread but reading through it now to me it represents how a nation only a few centuries old still cant decide what their sodding civil war was fought for.

Haha I take it your not American then? Where are you from? I've always been curious as to what other countries thought of our war and what they hear/learn about it

I'm from the UK. The only American History we did at my school was just before, during and just after the Great Depression which was surprisingly interesting but I've forgotten a lot and the Vietnam War which was also interesting but also very depressing. No one left those particular classes with a smile on their face.

As for the American Civil War I only know what I've come across myself. Which is very little if I'm being honest. The only figures I can name off the top of my head are Robert E Lee and Abraham Lincoln. I can't say I have any strong thoughts on the war either way. While I certainly think Slavery should be eradicated I can't honestly say a populace shouldn't be allowed to secede. The best I can say is that the American Civil War was an American issue that should have been and thankfully was left to Americans to solve.

I guess the best comparison I can give you is when the American Colonies decided to declare their independence from Britain.(btw do you mean like England UK or one of the other countries? I believe the UK relates to the whole island doesnt it? , I'm probably wrong but i've wondered this for a little while) Except the North actually cared and had a reason for wanting the South to stay (northern economy was pretty much based on the cotton from the south) where as Britain didn't really care that much and was kind of preoccupied with matters more close to home.

The way ive seen it is that we Americans were kind of the bratty spoiled child and britain was extremely fair in all their laws and they did protect the colonies. Include the fact that the colonies did have a representative who albeit was wildly out of touch with the colonies it didnt matter because most colonists weren't actually forced to pay taxes if they didnt want to. Then When Britain tried to stop the smuggling of tea by offering us cheaper better quality tea we threw it in the ocean. Well I'm still proud to be American even if we really were founded by a group of over reacting children haha

What? There was a reason the 13 colonies broke ties with the U.K. Initially we didn't have that many problems with the English passing taxs on external trade. It's just when we started to get taxs on internal trade to help pay for the English wars (including the French and Indian war, which is known as something else over in Europe, King George's war I believe?) that the American colonist fought in but got nothing from. The American Revolution was caused by a lot of bad blood that some colonists had towards England due to some recent events (the above-mentioned economic reasons, the Proclamation Line of 1763, certain views from each side towards the other, and the heavy-handedness of certain British actions in the colonies).

You have a point that it wasn't some big uprising amongst the liberty loving colonists against the tyranny of the English Crown. The lines in the colonies were split about 33%/33%/33% in terms of who wanted independence, who were still loyal to the Crown, and who didn't care that strongly one way or the other. And the real fire starters (the "Sons of Liberty" who started the whole uprising in New England) were rather radical or had economic reasons for secession.

You can see some of the reasons why Americans broke off from England in some of the Amendments in our Constitution: Freedom of Protest, Freedom of Assembly, Right to a fair trial, no cruel and unusual punishments, no quartering of troops. Right to bear arms (a hot topic in today's US) was probably to help make sure that the population rise up should a tyranny take control that the people didn't like (mind you, some wanted to crown George Washington king, we might have been a monarchy had he accepted); which is why it's someone archaic in today's world.

While this is all true and I'm not denying them at all. This cracked article seems to sum it up nicely and its an interesting read http://www.cracked.com/article_18442_5-reasons-founding-fathers-were-kind-dicks.html

 

[velcrokidneyz]

the civil war wasnt even about slavery hardly at all. it was primarily about restoring the union, its just the people who you see associated with it that give it a bad connotation, its not a racist symbol.

But it was about slavery, that is why the union was divided. You cannot deny that slavery was a driving fact in the whole war.

i am currently in a military history course and we talked about this the other day.

yes slavery was a factor but only until later in the war. it is just that the north was industrialized and didnt require them, immigrants wanted jobs so they made jobs instead of slavery. it was mainly about restoring the union. heck about 90 percent of soldiers for the south didnt even own slaves, and only a few journals ever even mentioned slavery. one big factor was the replacement of national by sectional parties

So than why on many important historical documents, such as South Carolina's declaration of secession, is slavery pretty much the only mentioned reason for secession? I'm not denying that the North might have had the reason to declare war to unite the nation again, but the South certainly seceded because of slavery.

im not even gonna bother...

 

[emeraldrafael]

To me as an Australian it means bogans (rednecks) putting stickers of it on their utes (trucks) and apparently having no idea of its historical meaning or context. That's right, plenty of people display this flag in Australia.

I find this funny.

Mainly cause when i think about Australia, I think about Georgia.

Is this an obscure joke I've not understood, or does my nation somehow cause you to think of a southern American (and formerly Confederate) state?

Yeah. Its kinda a joke, but its one of those funny things that just happens. Both Georgia and Australia were founded as a place to put criminals and unwanted people.

The only difference was Georgia was made to keep Spanish Florida away from Cash Crop producing S. Carolina.

 

[Atmos Duality]

It means little to me; a symbol that represented a time and society in my country that I have no real connection or interest in.

The boycott is nothing more than a typical knee-jerk reaction to symbolism.
It reminds me of those people who go hunting through modern art and literature for swastikas in their never-ending quest for "justice" for a people who has largely since moved on.

 

[ToxicOranges]

Just like the Nazi flag can be waved all you want, whilst you yell all you like about how it is an ancient Hindu symbol of peace, no-one is going to listen, and most will think you're a bigoted, narrow-minded racist anti-semite, the Confederate flag may ONCE have represented the southern states rebellious attitude and rock 'n' roll, all it does now to the common viewer, is present an image of someone who is backward, bigoted, and possibly a racist.

 

[One of Many]

So long as Neo-Nazis, racist Skinheads and KKK members march under the Confederate flag, flag it at their compounds and rallies, it is NOTHING more then a symbol of hate

 

[Comrade_Beric]

im not even gonna bother...

Most people on the Escapist, when proven demonstrably incorrect, simply stop posting, rather than come back to make an entire post saying how it's no longer worth posting about. Flac00 is correct. The North may not have begun the war with the intention of eliminating slavery, but the South believed slavery was critical to their way of life and was convinced that the only way to protect slavery was to leave the Union. The South thought the North was plotting to destroy the Southern economy by eliminating slavery with their large congressional advantage. This had been kept under control by the South being able to ensure balance in the Senate [http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/Missouri.html] and a President (and thus tie-breaking Vice-President) who was sympathetic towards, if not outright supportive of, their cause. When Lincoln was elected, a President from a party specifically against Slavery, the South panicked and left. Some, such as South Carolina, left even before Lincoln could even be inaugurated.

Texas made it crystal clear [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.268963.10317438] in their official list of reasons for secession that slavery was not only the primary issue, but practically the only issue, for leaving the Union.

 

[Nurb]

The confederate flag represents the south. Contrary to belief, the south didn't represent slavery.

Yes it did. It represented a nation founded on the idea blacks were ment to be slaves to whites, and plainly said slavery was the main reason for the civil war by the Confederate vice president.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.268963-What-does-the-Confederate-flag-represent-to-you?page=4#10313988

Since when did one man represent an entire nation? Using that logic I can assume that all Americans hate soldiers and they all believe that God intends for them to die. Slavery may be the reason the upper class rich politicians wanted to secede, but it certainly wasn't the reason most Southerners wanted to. They wanted freedom from a nation they viewed as oppressive. They see the North as taking advantage of them and stepping on them every chance it got. I explained this in my post, did you even read it? Or did you see "The South didn't represent slavery" and immediately pull out something ONE PERSON said. It doesn't even matter that he was Vice President. People have minds and they think their own ideas. An entire nation isn't going to unanimously agree with something someone says, no matter their position.

He was the vice president... he said that their constitution was founded on blacks being in their rightful place, which is why it differed from some of the founders...

And Jefferson Davis (president) saw that emancipation would come in a generation or two regardless, and used the Confederacy as a means to get black people ready to integrate on an equal footing so as to not cause many generations of underprivileged lower class that would be exploited by others. What's your point?

They broke away, their constitution saying blacks were ment to be slaves, but intended to intergrate them...

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