What happened to the Escapist?

Adultratedhydra

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Vault101 said:
You atleast have the stones to be civil. Usually people resort to the old "Sea lioning!" (Not sure why they assume sea lioning is bad. Are they saying they dont need to explain themselves?).

In any case We are always going to agree to disagree. End of the day GG is stuck in its containment thread and overall has far smaller impact on the site than some people seem to think.

Also the Golden Median Fallacy is just that. A Fallacy. Why does "Listen and believe" only apply to a select few? Why shouldnt both sides tell their story? What happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"? The world isnt black and white, It's a vast place with different idea's and motives. We cant all be relegated to "Misogynist shitlord or not" because that way madness lies.

And yes this is quite civil, Compared to most other conversations that go on around here Neither of us have needed to resort to snide insults. Fucking achievement on the forums at the moment.
 

Vault101

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Adultratedhydra said:
Also the Golden Median Fallacy is just that. A Fallacy. Why does "Listen and believe" only apply to a select few? Why shouldnt both sides tell their story? What happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"? The world isnt black and white, It's a vast place with different idea's and motives. We cant all be relegated to "Misogynist shitlord or not" because that way madness lies.
uhh....thats not how logical fallacies work

the golden median assumes that the "correct" answer to any "opposing sides" is a median between both of them, this is not always the case (ie: trying to have a "fair" debate over whether or not climate change is real when its pretty much confirmed by credibal sources and the opposition is just political posturing and diversion)

this ties into peoples tendency to veiw things as a diochotomy whee both things are equal opposites of each other...where isn't always true

EDIT: and sea lioning just means that we are not obligated to engage people..which is perfectly valid, partciually if its abuse or just the same dumb thing you've explained a million times before and won't change anyones mind anyway
 

wizzy555

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Vault101 said:
Adultratedhydra said:
Also the Golden Median Fallacy is just that. A Fallacy. Why does "Listen and believe" only apply to a select few? Why shouldnt both sides tell their story? What happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"? The world isnt black and white, It's a vast place with different idea's and motives. We cant all be relegated to "Misogynist shitlord or not" because that way madness lies.
uhh....thats not how logical fallacies work

the golden median assumes that the "correct" answer to any "opposing sides" is a median between both of them, this is not always the case (ie: trying to have a "fair" debate over whether or not climate change is real when its pretty much confirmed by credibal sources and th
Yes it is not always the case. But it is the case in this time.

It is only fallacious if your reasoning is IT MUST or always lies in the middle. If you have observed both sides and find you believe the truth is in the middle that isn't fallacious - it may be wrong but it isn't fallacious.

I really do hate how activists exploit fallacies.
 

Adultratedhydra

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Vault101 said:
the golden median assumes that the "correct" answer to any "opposing sides" is a median between both of them, this is not always the case (ie: trying to have a "fair" debate over whether or not climate change is real when its pretty much confirmed by credibal sources and the opposition is just political posturing and diversion)
Except that is the case here. The truth is distorted by both sides and Both sides have done deplorable things that each side blames the other of. Everything is a False flag or Shilling. GG cant notice the blatant piggybacking for exposure from the smaller sites (Looking at techraptr here.) or the once no name E-Celebs latching onto them for views. It's the same on the other side, People latch onto an idea and use it to ride a wave to recognition. Until all of the "Figureheads" from both sides just shut up for 5 minutes nothing will die down, at this point its a self fulfilling prophecy complete with (Disproven) Claims that Swatting has killed someone.

It's like this, Remove the identifying lables and i couldnt tell you the difference Between Kotakuinaction and GamerGhazi. Both are full of horrible human beings but their leaders are even worse. Mundanematt, Milo(Especially Milo), that Aristocrat guy who peaced out, just to name afew, piggybacked all this just for youtube/Website views and so they had an audience to spout their crap to. On the other side though we have Geordie "Gas all the things" tait, Chris "You cant prove i sexually harassed anyone" Kluwe and Ben "Tetris is Soviet propoganda" Kuchera, again, just to name afew. Are we supposed to ignore that the figureheads of both sides are human scum just because one side says "It's a joke" When they are called out on it?
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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wizzy555 said:
If you have observed both sides and find you believe the truth is in the middle that isn't fallacious
which is the debatable part

[quote/]I really do hate how activists exploit fallacies.[/quote]
am I an actiivist now?

besides EVERYONE "exploits fallacies" if they understand them or not
 

wizzy555

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Vault101 said:
wizzy555 said:
If you have observed both sides and find you believe the truth is in the middle that isn't fallacious
which is the debatable part
There's a difference between being wrong and being fallacious.

Adultratedhydra has evidently observed the situation and come his conclusion without assuming it in the premises.
 

Bizzaro Stormy

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What happened to this thread? It used to be a warm inviting place where people talked about the past and reminisced in the joyous comradeship of Escapist reading! Now it's attack and counter attack on whether GG ruined the site or not! WHY!!! (sobs softly for a while)

Seriously the forums used to look like a very unwelcoming place to an outsider. You fit the views of those already there or you don't go in them. Now they actually allow people to have different opinions and disagree with each other so long as it remains civil. You know what else, a liberal system of warnings means that even frequent hotheads can come in, make a mistake, and get over it. This is not a bad thing, hell it's the only reason several of the posters on this thread are still allowed to post on the site.

I know it's hard to fathom but there are several billion people on the planet who aren't YOU. They won't have the same opinions, they won't see the same situation the same way, and they won't view right and wrong the same way as you. This does not make them evil or insane. It makes them different.

I've noticed a trend among folks in the last few years who claim they are open minded. They become so engrossed in their own social crusades that they view any outsider or decenter as being a bigot. They aren't. They just view the world differently. You who would attack them for having a different opinion on a social matter, and shut them down with a sneer, you are the bigot.

I came here for ZP, I loved Lisa's Top 5, and for some insane reason I watched a lot of Jimquisition even though I didn't really like it. The written reviews were good as well. I miss Lisa. She came back once, she probably won't come back again. I can accept that. This site is a business and they will provide the content that they think will help the bottom line. Deal with it.

If you want the forums to be better make better posts. If you want the content to be better, than only click on the stuff you like, or what you haven't heard of before to give it a try! Or you could even send some of your own work, or recommend someone's, to the staff of the Escapist. They might like it.

Or you could just stick to the forum games. Those are fun.
 

MrFalconfly

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Vault101 said:
and sea lioning just means that we are not obligated to engage people..which is perfectly valid, partciually if its abuse or just the same dumb thing you've explained a million times before and won't change anyones mind anyway
If you accuse people of deplorable things, and the accused demands explanation (i.e. "sealioning"), then you ARE obligated to explain yourself.

People generally respond badly to be called "misogynist arseholes", for no other reason than the accuser feeling like they are.
 

Thaluikhain

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MrFalconfly said:
If you accuse people of deplorable things, and the accused demands explanation (i.e. "sealioning"), then you ARE obligated to explain yourself.
You're not obligated to do that. Just because you think someone is deplorable doesn't mean they are somehow entitled to your time.
 

MrFalconfly

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thaluikhain said:
MrFalconfly said:
If you accuse people of deplorable things, and the accused demands explanation (i.e. "sealioning"), then you ARE obligated to explain yourself.
You're not obligated to do that. Just because you think someone is deplorable doesn't mean they are somehow entitled to your time.
Yes they are.

They are entitled to an explanation of why I'm trying to possibly libel them. They are entitled to an explanation of why I'm calling them "Mysoginist Arseholes".

If I label someone, unprovoked, without explanation they are well within their rights to demand an explanation from me.
 

Thaluikhain

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MrFalconfly said:
If I label someone, unprovoked, without explanation they are well within their rights to demand an explanation from me.
They can demand whatever they want. That doesn't mean anyone has to listen.
 

Hazy992

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Flombongo said:
Thank you for proving my point Escapist staff/mods. Dissent will not be tolerated. You're a joke. Maybe instead of trying to silence and censor all criticism you should spend more time working on the website.
Calling all the user posts here 'liberal bullshit' (which couldn't be further from the truth if you tried), and saying the site needs to die and is a cancer is not even close to constructive criticism, so don't pretend it is.
 

MrFalconfly

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thaluikhain said:
MrFalconfly said:
If I label someone, unprovoked, without explanation they are well within their rights to demand an explanation from me.
They can demand whatever they want. That doesn't mean anyone has to listen.
But it does mean that I'm the arsehole for not providing any explanation.

They are just asking a question. I'm the one dogmatically refusing to answer.
 

wizzy555

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While I'm sure sealioning disingenuously is a thing, people do abuse the hell out of the term. Public tweets for instance is public speaking so there really it no "this is a private conversation" defense (this is actually established in UK law now).

Speaking of which I generally agree with Jimmy Wales on the original comic https://storify.com/gameragodzilla/jimmy-wales-on-sealioning
 

IceForce

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Flombongo said:
Sometimes the truth hurts and the truth is this site is worthless now, it has a agenda to push and alienates anybody who doesn't agree with that agenda... which is most people, because it's wrong.
I'm not sure I understand. What 'agenda' is being pushed?

I assume you're referring to GamerGate?
 

Tono Makt

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I'm curious to go through the thread and see when the first mention of "Youtube" comes up.

In my eyes, it's Youtube that is most responsible for what's happening at the Escapist. And I'm part of that problem; I go to Youtube for the content. I watch Jeremy Jahns and Schmoes Knows for movie stuff, I enjoy Emergency Awesome for other stuff, I like ComicGirl19's comic stuff, etc. I click on the "Related" links on a regular basis when things look interesting. I don't generally bother with content on the Escapist beyond some of the more fun ones like LRR/Feed Dump and No Right Answer (I used to watch Top 5 with Lisa every week, was sad to see her go), though I do watch the Big Picture regularly. I rarely read anything MovieBob wrote, stopped watching his movie reviews months ago, never read anything Yahtzee wrote, because I don't buy new games regularly I haven't watched ZP in 2015 yet. Sometimes I'll click on more interesting articles, but since the first three or four podcasts of the new format I've ignored the rest (particularly ones with MovieBob in them - too often they were the MovieBob and Moderator talk about stuff while a Guest says "Okay, yeah, that's right." every 3-5 minutes.) and generally just come here for the Forums.

Gamergate isn't helping matters, but neither did the Mass Effect 3 fiasco, nor other controversies where the Media has taken to protecting the Content Creators/Developers (mostly) and attacking their Audience. It's a fine line to walk, protecting the Developers from the Audience and respecting the feelings of the Audience, and the Escapist (along with most other Gaming media) is not walking that very well. With MovieBob and Jim gone, maybe that will change as neither of those two really stood up for the audience on a regular basis (except when it suited Jim's needs to sound like a consumer advocate, and he could take on the easy targets). I think alot of the negative feelings towards the media in the gaming community gets dumped on the Escapist unfairly, and much of that falls on the backs of Jim and Bob.

Lastly, the politicization of gaming has hurt the Escapist. Not so much as in "Liberal vs Conservative" but as in "My Side vs Your Side", where if you aren't completely on My Side, you're helping Their Side and must be attacked. Mass Effect 3 ending and Gamergate are perfect examples of this and when the Escapist tries to be neutral, too many people from both sides see neutrality as aiding the Enemy. GJP summed it up almost perfectly when Greg Tito was attacked for even allowing discussion of the ZQ situation on the site in any way. The site was as neutral as you could be on the matter, on one side allowing people to talk about it and on the other side, harshly moderating what was said, but just the fact that it was being allowed was enough to get Tito in trouble with one side. Because the Escapist has tried to stay neutral, it gets flack from both sides.

All in all, though, I don't see Doom and Gloom for the site. Jim was much more hated than loved when he first came here. Bob didn't catch on for a few months after Escape to the Movies debuted. Other content creators will take their places and will earn a following here, or on whatever form the Escapist takes in the future. The Forums, I hope, will remain open and as moderated as they are now since they're probably the biggest draw this place has. Leave the forums as they are and the users will create enough content for site clicks - though if you really want to get risky, open it up so that the top 10 forum topics are displayed, not just the top 5...
 

Hazy992

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Flombongo said:
Hazy992 said:
Flombongo said:
Thank you for proving my point Escapist staff/mods. Dissent will not be tolerated. You're a joke. Maybe instead of trying to silence and censor all criticism you should spend more time working on the website.
Calling all the user posts here 'liberal bullshit' (which couldn't be further from the truth if you tried), and saying the site needs to die and is a cancer is not even close to constructive criticism, so don't pretend it is.
I'd call it an astute observation rather than constructive criticism. The constructive criticism would be stop ramming ads down our throats every two seconds

You're allowed to swear here, you're allowed to say things people don't agree with. You're just not allowed to say it about the Escapist and their double standards. The same thing happened to users when they complained about the selective moderation of their content creators.

I'm just pointing out that the way the Escapist deals with things they don't want to hear is the same way Putin deals with it, the same way Hitler dealt with it. I've lurked here for years and I've never seen so much bias, all the Escapist has achieved is to drive anyone away who might have a decent input. Sometimes the truth hurts and the truth is this site is worthless now, it has a agenda to push and alienates anybody who doesn't agree with that agenda... which is most people, because it's wrong.
And what bias might that be? To liberalism? Because I'd strongly disagree.
 

Thaluikhain

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Flombongo said:
I'm just pointing out that the way the Escapist deals with things they don't want to hear is the same way Putin deals with it, the same way Hitler dealt with it.
...

Ok, the person who said that is suspended, and likely won't be back much, but...the Escapist is just like Hitler!

Having said that, perhaps building autobahns would help improve the site...somehow.