What happened to the Escapist?

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Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Supahewok said:
And those articles and columns covered the gamut of games criticism, positive and negative. A lot of them showed a love for games and the people who played them, not a desire to tear them down that has become a prevailing attitude over the past two years.
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this is something I just cannot understand, WHY has taking about thease things [footnote/]woman, the appeal of games, representation/minorities take your pick [/footnote] ALWAYS met with such hostility? always interpreted as a personal attack? why are people so fucking scared? that something so god damn innocuous gave rise to the biggest cancer online gaming discourse has ever seen?

because I love games, or at least I used too..I still do but I've turned to other mediums where I see woman, POC, gay people, gay woman POC's as the protagonists and I think "wow, this is awesome for everyone" I've seen what I'm missing

it hurts that people would hate me and others like me because we care about this kind of thing, and it hurts that they would froth at the mouth at those who discuss these things in the media, or put such things in their games, that theyre incenced over the fact that they DARE ask for representation? that they DARE point to those things and say "this is sexist?" they are want to be included?

no don't say that, talks bout the games, just the games and for gods sake don't mention your gender you attention whore


are they hurt because they feel their "identity" has been insulted? yet they hate us for our identity's, ones that are innate and not based on the products we buy...or the ones that aren't, that we dare have opinions that don't validate them, that we dare believe that the media we consume is NEVER JUST X

before it was trantums over review scores and now its tantrums over criticism

and it makes me tried, gamers want to act like children, want everything to remain the same forever, but we aren't children...games aren't childish nor are they SOLEY for CHILDREN, they haven't been for as long as they were around, I'm not a child anymore and I can see that the obsession with the "gamer" identity is an unhealthy one, borne from defensiveness of the mainstream constantly telling us we were losers, manchildren, games were childish, had no value but we said NO...we are not like that, games are awesome they sought out their own little world and that world agreed...but in revelling in validation people regressed and turn into every awful sterotype there is, and so gamergate proved them right

I take solace in the fact that if I get my ass of the internet GG fades into the background, there have been those games...even if they are expections to the rule...even if they aren't *perfect* but they have existed, and they were awesome

and so GamerGate "lost" it "lost" before it began
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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008Zulu said:
Moviebob left? When, his stuff is still on the website.
A couple of days ago. His stuff will probably stay up as long as the website is, if you look in the archives all of the old content is there, even in cases, like the case of Extra Credits, where the departure was less than amiable.
 

Redd the Sock

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I came for Yahtzee. I'm staying for Yahtzee.

When I came here around 2009 there was a lot to splunk through and that I found interesting to view. As time passed, little seemed fresh, or particularly interesting. I kept up with some f the shows because some friends were larger fans and liked to talk about them, but I started to lose interest. I tried getting into the forums, but like most forums, conversation was limited. Then the shit hit the fan. Politics and social commentary were the order of the day, which did revive some interest, but it had a major flaw: gamers were always wrong. We were expected to respect casual players as much as hardcore, surrender what we considered rewards to anyone that wanted them, forfeit our personal gaming tastes in the name of "artistic integrity," and somehow were an evil cabal of people trying to keep any non-white-straight males out of out space because we dared to try and offer games with more character variety and suggest that it would be better to support those than ***** on forums about games that do things you hate. Over time, I posted less and less just because I was tired of the same fights with people that seemed more interested in having something to be mad about, and as these topics became much of the articles and videos, I watched and viewed less and less.

As it stands, the Escapist has lost a lot of talent, much of which I don't think was worth the time anyway. Now it needs to replace them, and hopefully with something not done better by someone on youtube. Someone that can cover gaming controversies without immediately picking sides, or repeating topics. Someone that can analyze and and critique something more than they recap it. It isn't hard. To get customers, you need to give them content they want, and day late news and reviews of last nights TV doesn't do it for me.
 

Godhead

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May 25, 2009
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It's probably because they got rid of pizza Tuesday.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.
 

Johnny Impact

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I'd say it goes something like this.

-Contributors with strong opinions create/increase controversy.
-Controversy creates/increases bile and rancor among that percentage of the population who can't tolerate any opinion but their own.
-Bile and rancor are bad for forum members, editors, other contributors, ad sponsors, pretty much everyone.
-Contributors get asked/told, whether by the incessant screaming of intolerant forum members or calmly by their actual boss, to stop expressing opinions.
-Contributors see they aren't wanted and leave.
-Contributors leave a vacuum behind. People who liked them are sad to see them go, people who disliked them still rant against them and crow about how 'that asshole' is finally gone. No one is happy.
-Either way, whatever fills the hole won't be the same.

Alternatively, replace 'has strong opinions' with 'not getting paid' or some other shenanigans. I don't keep up on the details of these things.

captcha: thank you, come again.
How perfect.
 

Atmos Duality

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major_chaos said:
I don't really think whats changing is The Escapist, its gaming/gamers. The days where there was a sense of childlike wonder and glee over videogames are long gone, replaced with cold bitter cynicism, and the places that used to be about talking about how awesome games are are now mostly devoted to talking about how much games suck, and gamers suck and wurgle gurg murg WHY CAN"T I HOLD ALL THIS MISANTHROPY. As much as I yearn for it, the age of Nintendo Power style happy excited game reporting is dead and its never coming back. The amount of bile and snide barbs directed at the new CM for having the gall to suggest a new more positive direction is a clear sign of that. And its not just news sites either. Remember when GFAQs was a nice place where people went to discuss strategy, write awesome guides, and provide meaningful feedback, instead of the roiling pit of fanboy wars and trolling it is today? Pepridge Farm remembers I do, but that was a long time ago.
...Great god of goonery alive, I almost tried to edit your post for readability* thinking it was mine.
Because that's pretty much exactly how I feel. (*no offense, I'm anal about formatting)

I'm an ex-GFAQer and an old one at that (two different screen names) that came to the Escapist in late 08' early 09' but didn't create an account until 10'.

The Escapist was a place where discussing GAMES didn't feel like an uphill battle with brain-dead unfunny trolls; it had a sense of humor to it, was well-moderated and aimed to keep the discussions as DISCUSSIONS rather than the usual banal channer-circle-jerk of memes that took over Gfaqs.

(sure, there were some memes here and there, but it wasn't every other goddamn post or thread like it was on some of the more popular Gfaqs boards)

I rather liked this place a lot...and then things started happening, which itself is long and complicated enough that I don't need to elaborate on in this already large reply.

But that's the nature of the beast it seems.
See, I used to like Gamefaqs a lot too. And then the merger with Gamespot happened (the same merger Cjay said wouldn't happen, but again I digress), which was followed swiftly by a large influx of trolls causing an implosion of moderation effectiveness and a sharp decline in thread quality across most of the board.

Which isn't to say that Gamefaqs wasn't a silly place before the merger; it's just that it was a more manageable amount of silly rather than the tsunami of human stupidity that befell it.

It seems that it will soon be necessary to seek out another gaming site for refuge...only, this time I don't know if there will even be one that satisfies.

None of this really surprises me. I have been saying for years that gaming as me and my generation grew up with it will die fairly early in my lifetime, to be replaced exclusively by "experimental" art/vanity projects funded by kickstarter on the "core" side and the ever growing mobile cash cowclickers on the "casual" side. The radical alteration of the way gaming content is distributed is just the first pangs of this eventuality.
Yeah. Though even brushing the pseudo-intellectuals and politics aside, I've come to a realization that "plug, play, and enjoy" is considered "niche" now by the market at large.
With rare exception, there's always some sort of baggage included in the game design.

1) -Feature complete games are going extinct-

I should amend this to say that they can still be found from many indie devs, but that's a matter more of competition than anything. AAA doesn't really compete against each other now. They all have their annual franchises for funds injections and operate in a way eerily similar to modern Hollywood.
Anyway, I digress.

Why? Money concerns. Feature-complete games are too expensive to produce and turn a profit without greatly increasing the up-front cost now. That's why DLC and microtransactions are the future; people are more willing to pay for things if offered in smaller manageable chunks, and what better way to encourage that than selling opportunities in something they're already invested in?

2)-Big publishers want to force more social-media "features" into their games.-

I can only guess at what they mean specifically here, but if they're alluding to the most successful "social-media" games (Farmville, Candy Crush, Clash of Clans), then they're likely referring to those where either the gameplay mechanics handicaps the player or the game forces competition with other players so the producer can offer to sell little "boosts".

-3) Always online. Always grind. It's The Future(tm)-

More games are made to be online-centric than ever before. Now, I know I sound like I'm coming down on online-multiplayer here, but really, I'm more taking umbrage with the fact that online is becoming the ONLY OPTION rather than the PREFERRED OPTION.

And it all seems to have less to do with improving the gameplay experience and more to do with corralling players into some sort of digital "hen-house" model.

Why? Well, that's what the biggest earners in the business do: Gather the players, dump them onto your server, give them some vague goal or competition, make them grind their brains out to keep them from going elsewhere, and monetize the result in some way.
If it's PvE, charge for a subscription or ingame currency to spend on essentials (like inventory space).
If it's PvP, charge for cosmetics and maps (or boosts, ala Pay2Win if you're feeling bold).

Gameplay? Just do whatever was popular before.

(DOTA2 is a prime example here; it's literally just an always-online version of DotA1 with better matchmaking, some arbitrary exp+random-reward system, and penalties for being an asshole/leaving. It isn't really any different fundamentally.

While I'd LOVE to LAN DOTA2 or some other MOBA with my friends like I did for years or even just play against bots, alas, Valve et al. hath decreed that everyone plays online all the time, which sucks because my internet does NOT place nice with most MOBAs now.)

There are a few nods here and there towards games without that kind of baggage, almost exclusively indie (Shovel Knight springs to mind), but they're an extreme minority now.

I sound like an old man shaking my cane, but I say this: When fun gameplay or even the ability to just play without some sort of extra baggage becomes -niche-, the joy and purpose of gaming becomes niche.
And "niche joy" is just a nicer way of saying "This sucks, Beavis".
 

Objectable

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I blame the Authority. Ever since they prevented Daniel Bryan from regaining the title, the Escapist has been going downhill!
 

MerlinCross

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Did this basically turn into "Did the site go down hill before or AFTER Gamergate" thread?

I actually can't answer that. I was never that much of a forum goer before the event so I'm unsure how the community thought things were being run. That and I only came to the site for like 4 things and left after seeing them so I'm unaware of how the rest of the content has been dealt with.

Sadly I did see a lot of bannings and people just leaving the site thanks to said event(for or against). So there probably is some weight to the 'site went downhill after' argument. We just have to see how this plays out because I'd hate to see the site go under.

Pluvia said:
To show that it's not "remaining to be the most open" when the extremely toxic group they're "open" to pretty much have their balls in a vice grip.

"Made their bed" is a far more apt description of the situation. They decided that Gamergate would be the best thing for their image, despite the massive warning signs, and Gamergate will repay that by targeting their revenue if they come to their senses.
....., I'd like to say I have a rebuttal but I don't. Gamergate is mainly a blob of different factions trying to work towards a goal so any number of people/groups could want revenge if the Escapist shuts down discussion. Others could just wipe their hands of it and move on while others could just thank them for putting up with it for so long. I myself would be in that last camp(least you guys talk back, not scream) but I have no idea the actual response and reaction if the Escapist actually does that.

And that's not even counting someone else doing it for lols(It's the internet, doing it for the lols happens).
 

V da Mighty Taco

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Hold it, Tito's gone? Fuck, this site really has gone to shit, hasn't it? Seriously, losing Jim, Bob (not much of a fan of his, especially after ME3 and GG, but he did do the occasional killer Big Picture), and Tito within a span of only a couple months is insane. All that's really left now that I give a crap about is ZP, EP, and Critical Miss. That probably explains why I rarely find reason to come here much anymore, especially after all these damn controversies from the past 2 years tore these forums and the community apart (yes, peaking at GG). I miss when the most irritating thing people would do is derail threads with ponies. T-T

sky14kemea said:
BathorysGraveland2 said:
People say the mods here are harsh. I say they're the most generous, soft moderators with the most lenient rules on the net.
S-soft?



I was going for f-fluffy. Q^Q
Wait the flying fucking minute, when the hell did you become a mod again? O_O

At least I have another reason to come here then, I suppose. Another friendly face and all (and boy is that needed). Seriously, nice to see the Spidermod back in action. :3
 

Elberik

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Its the Early-year lull in video games. We havent got a good distraction yet so people are getting broody. Everything isnt 100% sunshine & rainbows all the time,
 

V da Mighty Taco

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Pluvia said:
AzrealMaximillion said:
Pluvia said:
AzrealMaximillion said:
Pluvia said:
Presumably Gamergate. The Escapist made their bed when they decided that a group that's not allowed on other websites for being toxic as fuck would be the best thing for their image.

Weirdly, lots of content creators have left. Probably a coincidence.
You call it "making their bed" with a group. I call it remaining to be the most open gaming forums after the GG bomb blew up. Comeplete censorship of it made the other sites look real cowardly. Moderating it by the rules like anything else gave The Escapist a lot of props late last year.
If The Escapists bans Gamergate now, do you think Gamergate will go after their advertisers?
Yes. But my question is, what's the point of your hypothetical?
To show that it's not "remaining to be the most open" when the extremely toxic group they're "open" to pretty much have their balls in a vice grip.

"Made their bed" is a far more apt description of the situation. They decided that Gamergate would be the best thing for their image, despite the massive warning signs, and Gamergate will repay that by targeting their revenue if they come to their senses.
The reason I, along with many others, became a part of the movement that would eventually become GG (which I am NOT a part of now and refuse to be again) is because of the censorship campaign against those who either criticised Quinn or the journalists. Banning uncivil or hostile behavior in discussions on a controversial topic is one thing, but openly banning all discussion on said topic was never and still isn't the morally right thing to do, and I say this as someone who is absolutely fed up with both sides of GG and just wants the shitstorm to end. You moderate such discussions and set ground rules for them - you don't forbid them altogether (speaking of which, the mods deserve crazy amounts of respect for handling it as well as they did).

Simply put, one should not forbid another to speak just because the former believes the latter to be utterly wrong, which is exactly what the other sites did (assuming the best case scenario - that they weren't just trying to cover their friends' / their own asses by making a strawman of their critics). At least in Greg Tito's case, he really didn't do it for his or the site's image but because he believed silencing people was wrong even if he was staunchly against their viewpoints, as the GameJournoPros thing had proven. It's why he remains one of the 2 primary people in this shitstorm that I strongly respect.

Captcha: "can't have nice things" I think that's something we're all feeling right now, Captcha.
 

V da Mighty Taco

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Elberik said:
Its the Early-year lull in video games. We havent got a good distraction yet so people are getting broody. Everything isnt 100% sunshine & rainbows all the time,
No offense, but this shit has been going since at least GG began in August and possible much longer than that if you want to try to trace some of this tension back further (ME3 or Extra Credits, anyone?). I don't think time of the year has anything to do with it, imho.
 

V da Mighty Taco

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The_Kodu said:
Oh how fun so many blaming it in the monstrous boogeyman of Gamergate and how "Toxic" it all is.

It seems quite simple.

- After some of the gamergate content and the controversy both ways the management Defy Media put a blanket ban on actual gamergate related content. Jim left possibly after being told he couldn't talk about it (but he still hasn't so who really can say). Bob has been less than silent on social media and has been making a bit of a rectum of himself there but in his more professional content producing capacity he was at least providing something constructive to the debate by trying to explain actions on both sides.

- Sites poisoning the water by removing the politics free space that was gaming. Other sites by interjecting a lot of politics into gaming and the reaction to this in the form of gamergate hit all sites as gaming was no longer seen as a safe non political non controversial area. Some sites of course got hit harder than others and Gawker actively attacking advertisers hasn't helped much.

- Online revenue dropping. I mean Linkara of TGWTG has a Patreon now. The availability of certain un-nameable things has caused ad revenue to drop in most places

If people had been paying attention Archon pointed out this could be happening last year and that the escapist was going to be cutting people to survive. Personally I had no real issue with Movie Bobs content for the most part it was quite good (Him on Twitter seems like a far different person) the only thing I've ever had issue with was his big picture on genetic engineering.

Polygon are actively signing their death warrant at present by telling people in no uncertain terms to fuck off and they "Aren't the right kind of gamers to be their readership". It looks like more developers are looking at Polygon and refusing things I mean Ubisoft refused to send a review copy of Farcry 4 and instead sent some half finished developer version then didn't bother sending the working version.

Anyone who thinks this decline is at the feet of Gamergate is sorely mistaken as Lisa Foiles stopping was kind of the first indicator something was happening. I think we might see some new pick ups at some point once things have stabilised a bit but at present it's weathering the storm that's going on.

Also is all this salt really healthy that a site refused help enable false DMCA claims ad other such nonsense?

I mean there's still the possibility of Big Man Tyrone's gaming news show coming (I really hope it does make it)

Pluvia said:
To show that it's not "remaining to be the most open" when the extremely toxic group they're "open" to pretty much have their balls in a vice grip.

"Made their bed" is a far more apt description of the situation. They decided that Gamergate would be the best thing for their image, despite the massive warning signs, and Gamergate will repay that by targeting their revenue if they come to their senses.
So let me get this right. You're angry because the Escapist chose to allow different opinions to be expressed and didn't instantly burn the earth and salt to get rid of people you dislike because they disagree with you ?

Yes there have been arguments that have got out of hand (when you talk religion, politics or sport it can and often will happen). However the escapist is at least trying to allow everyone to remain and to have these discussions.
I think you are right that GG isn't the sole cause of what's going on lately and might not even be the primary cause in at least the cases of the staff (the TGWTG mini-exodus going on right now lends credence to the idea of ad-revenue based business models falling apart). I would certainly list it as a factor though at least on a community level, even if not the primary one. General internet forums in particular, especially GG-centerpieces like the Escapist, now have massive underlying tensions everywhere that's pretty much only being kept in check by exhaustion. People have become more reluctant to talk about whatever their personal issues are in this clusterfuck of a controversy (even if it's "I don't care, quit bugging me already") and when they do their fatigue at dealing with this for months on end causes them to be much more rash and aggressive than intended. Basically, on at least a community level, GG is a major factor in driving people away as the majority of people are getting too tired to argue it anymore. However, with the discussions left unfinished, the tensions will likely continue to remain and will steadily build up underneath until it explodes in another GG-sized controversy (or bigger) down the line.

That's my take, anyways.
 

Adultratedhydra

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Vault101 said:
not just GamerGate but the internet time and time again has proven it ISN'T a safe space...there is rampant misogyny and everything else and to say otherwise is burying ones head in the sand
Myself and others have to work pretty hard to find anything intentionally "Misogynistic" online. Very specific places that need to be gone to and even then the intentional malice is reserved for an even more select spot.

on the other side of the coin you need to go to very specific places to find what GG apparently hates so much in sarkeesian, wu, quinn. GG has to work very hard to see their shit.

Neither side wether they be "SJW" or "Pro-GG" has any moral highground anymore anyway. Both are as bad as eachother and constantly make proof enough that both "Sides" (BUT THAR NO BE SIDES, wrong, theres a thing and an opposition. this "NO THERES JUST EVERYONE ELSE" shit doesnt fly.) need to just shut up and go back to circlejerking themselves.

TLDR
GG is stupid with their cries of "ETHICS" but their laser focus on Social Justice and E-Celebs but so are these claims of "RAMPANT MISOGYNY EVEN IF YOU DONT KNOW YOU'RE ACTUALLY PASSIVELY A MISOGYNIST SHITLORD." from the other side of this coin.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Adultratedhydra said:
Myself and others have to work pretty hard to find anything intentionally "Misogynistic" online. Very specific places that need to be gone to and even then the intentional malice is reserved for an even more select spot.
1. it doesn't have to be intentional
2. I find that VERY hard to belive

[quote/]Neither side wether they be "SJW" or "Pro-GG" has any moral highground anymore anyway. Both are as bad as eachother and constantly make proof enough that both "Sides" (BUT THAR NO BE SIDES, wrong, theres a thing and an opposition. this "NO THERES JUST EVERYONE ELSE" shit doesnt fly.) need to just shut up and go back to circlejerking themselves.
[/quote]
I don't subscribe to the idea every disagreement has an equal opposite and a third ooptionwhere one can "dismiss both sides" as pretenf their above it all
 

Adultratedhydra

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Vault101 said:
1. it doesn't have to be intentional
You dont speak for me or the other billions of people on this earth and you dont get to declare anyone anything. to think otherwise is laughable.

Vault101 said:
I don't subscribe to the idea every disagreement has an equal opposite and a third ooptionwhere one can "dismiss both sides" as pretenf their above it all.
Again, you dont have to subscribe to the idea just as i dont have to tell you that you have to dismiss it. Difference of opinion. Good for you that you are involved in something you believe in. Me? I dont care about a petty internet slapfight and choose to just think both sides are whining children.
 

likalaruku

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Hmmm.... I initially came for Zero Punctuation, after several name-drops from someone on TGWTG.

I enjoyed Unskipable, Unforgotten Realms, Checkpoint, Feed Dump, Shamus Plays (especially the LOTRO one), Doraleous & Associates, & Jimquisition.

I found The Escapist Forum to be the most polite & on topic forum of all times. That hasn't changed at all.

I liked that, up until recently, the site was focused entirely on video games, & whenever something non-game related poppped up, I'd chime in "what does this have to do with video games?"

But like all good places, the core entertainment leaves. Escapist is no longer games-only & LLR left, Unforgotten Realms website shut down, PATV is gone, Channel Awesoem & Reviewtopia have become shadows of their former glory with their entertainment having almost entirely parted ways to different sites, JewWario is dead, Allison Pregler doesn't do OLP anymore, Homestar Runner only updates a few times a year if we're lucky, Jontron/AVGN/Spoony/LittleKuriboh have drastically reduced their yearly output of videos, Maximum PC stopped doing Byte Rights & Watch Dog, Ashens doesn't review Popstations anymore....
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Adultratedhydra said:
You dont speak for me or the other billions of people on this earth and you dont get to declare anyone anything. to think otherwise is laughable.
.
oookay then...

if you accidentally hit me in the face with a stick, you'd probably apologize, most people would [i/]because they understand immedetly I could be in pain,[/i]and while it was unintentional they understand it was a slight upon me... and I'd probably be like "thats cool, mabye be careful with your stick next time".again people immediately understand the pain part...its tangible

but how people react to something that isn't as "tangible" as pain:

[quote/]"Ow that hurt!"
"no it didn't"
"uhhh...yes it does"
"no it doesn't , it only hurts if I meant to hit you, I didn't mean to"
"yeah but...you can see the bruise starting to show"
"maybe it hurts because you [i/]expected[/i] it to hurt and you clealry have a problem with sticks..why do you hate sticks?"
"I don't hate sticks! its just yours hit me in the face"
"IT DIDN'T BECAUSE IT WAS UNINTENTIONAL"
"I know that!"
"then why are you are you freaking out over it?? what the fuck is your problem?"
"because my face hurts!!"
"I don't believe you! youre just overly sensitive!"
"...mabye in future carry your stick closer to your body, so you wont hit people"
"you DARE suggest I change my behaviour? I DON'T HIT PEOPLE WITH SITCKS!
"you just did"
"No I didn't! stick hitters are tattooed thugs who run around after midnight! do I look like a goddamn stick hitter?"
"no but you did hit me in the face with a stick"
"NO I DIDN'T!!!"[/quote]

my face hurts/I found that offensive <- people dissmiss the very idea that somone could be legitimatly offended by what they say [i/]or[/i] things in general, because we've been told that those bad people...the racists the sexists the homophbobes are [i/]other people[/i] characters with cartoonish veiw points (like the KKK or ultra conservative christians) and that nothing WE say (normal people) could in anyway cause offense

or for a more grounded example

most things are rarely if EVER intentional or at least you wont have people openly saying "I'm sexist" but that doesn't mean what they saying isn't sexist/whatever other ism there is

[b/]It's cool that your gay because youre not a butch dyke/a fag[/b] <-person doesn't think they're being homophobic cause they [i/]"are cool with gay people as long as they conform to my idea of gender norms"[/i] when in fact they expressed said homophobic sentiments (with a little mysogany thrown in)

[b/]you're really pretty and articulate for a black girl[/b] <-said person thinks they are paying her a compliment, when in fact they are drawing upon A.) beauty norms centered around white women as the standards and B.) stereotype that Black woman are uneducated and/or dumb

[b/]hey sweetie! why don't you go fetch me that paper on the desk?[/b] <-they think they're saying something nice when in fact its condescending, especially in a professional environment where said woman probably doesn't want to be spoken to like that

ALL of those examples , the people were genuine, and didn't mean to offend...and ALL of them were Homophic/racist/sexist to varying degrees the fact that they were unintentional [i/]does not change anything[/i] for the person on the receiving end or for anyone who seems them


we seem to have a lot of people who reeeeeaaaly don't want to be called and/or implied to be [whatever ism] and yet they refuse to even consider whether or not the things they do/say are whatever-ist