the scourge campaign for Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne does something like this with Arthas and the gradual level reduction though out the campaign
What if We Leveled Backwards?!
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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How about as you age, becoming weaker, older, and your armies grow smaller, so does your enemy.
Makes sense to me, if there was somebody who might have enough power to challenge me, I'd send my strongest men in first, to finish them off quickly. But shit, he killed them! No matter, now that they've softened him up a bit and wrecked his shield, my somewhat lesser minions will be able to take him down...and so on.
...Until we reach a showdown. The years spent killing your way to each other have taken their toll, your gear has been destroyed, neither of you have the strength to unleash a killer spell. Two old men, facing each other, breath ragged, clutching their swords.
Lets do this shit.
Oooh, no, wait, another idea. What if we make it more like aging? You start off on top of the world! Inexperienced, but strong, fit, and agile. Over time, you learn how to swing a sword, or aim better, but you get weaker. So your stats go down as your skills go up.
Makes sense to me, if there was somebody who might have enough power to challenge me, I'd send my strongest men in first, to finish them off quickly. But shit, he killed them! No matter, now that they've softened him up a bit and wrecked his shield, my somewhat lesser minions will be able to take him down...and so on.
...Until we reach a showdown. The years spent killing your way to each other have taken their toll, your gear has been destroyed, neither of you have the strength to unleash a killer spell. Two old men, facing each other, breath ragged, clutching their swords.
Lets do this shit.
Oooh, no, wait, another idea. What if we make it more like aging? You start off on top of the world! Inexperienced, but strong, fit, and agile. Over time, you learn how to swing a sword, or aim better, but you get weaker. So your stats go down as your skills go up.
I can see some pros in the concept. But I play RPG's to become a heavy armoured dude. I just love seeing the change on my character. Starting with some rags at lvl 1 and having fire coming out of my boots at top.
But the choosing away skills sounds like a good mechanic.
But the choosing away skills sounds like a good mechanic.
Well here's a point for trying.
People generally have a bad intuition when it comes to innovative ideas, but I have to trust mine this time. It seems like those concepts that only serve to make the paper they're on look nice; the "looks-good-on-paper" idea. I understand I am criticizing the man who solidified the definition of the term "immersion", but such a mechanic would only bring attention to the gameplay, though not inherently. This breakaway would occur when the player sees his/her character doing less damage; it doesn't matter whether the situation is treated with resentment or disappointment, what is brought to mind is the counterpositive gameplay. In a normal RPG no one gives a damn because it works for them, rather than against them.
However that's a strict interpretation of the idea. A game with GPR elements (yes I did, in fact, went there) would reap all the benefits without receiving a lot of harm. Metal Gear Solid 4 is an example; at the climax of the game, Snake, after hours of gameplay mowing down giant frog robots, was reduced to crawling on the floor, and if anything else brought attention to his utter decay in the game it was this moment. So...yeah, I will give you that.
Speaking of the relationship between age and RPG elements, would The Curious Case of Benjamin Button translate well into video games? I would like to see you try me, makers of The Great Gatsby video game.
People generally have a bad intuition when it comes to innovative ideas, but I have to trust mine this time. It seems like those concepts that only serve to make the paper they're on look nice; the "looks-good-on-paper" idea. I understand I am criticizing the man who solidified the definition of the term "immersion", but such a mechanic would only bring attention to the gameplay, though not inherently. This breakaway would occur when the player sees his/her character doing less damage; it doesn't matter whether the situation is treated with resentment or disappointment, what is brought to mind is the counterpositive gameplay. In a normal RPG no one gives a damn because it works for them, rather than against them.
However that's a strict interpretation of the idea. A game with GPR elements (yes I did, in fact, went there) would reap all the benefits without receiving a lot of harm. Metal Gear Solid 4 is an example; at the climax of the game, Snake, after hours of gameplay mowing down giant frog robots, was reduced to crawling on the floor, and if anything else brought attention to his utter decay in the game it was this moment. So...yeah, I will give you that.
Speaking of the relationship between age and RPG elements, would The Curious Case of Benjamin Button translate well into video games? I would like to see you try me, makers of The Great Gatsby video game.
I quite like the idea, especially as a means of changing the way players of different status interact with one another, but I'm not sure people will approve of being 'punished' and downgraded for their in-game successes and victories.
this is kind of what oblivion had due to what i always thought to be a flawed leveling system where enemies got stronger as you leveled up.
i remember getting to level 30 and realizing that bandits which at one point took me three hits to kill with my iron dagger which did 3 damage, now took me ten hits with a daedric claymore with 20 damage. i was also finding myself in need of more and more healing potions too.
so i don't know if thats what the developers, bethesda, were going for, but i guess the idea that you are trying to communicate to us already has a name. a name that most rpg fanatics i know cringe upon hearing. that word would be level scaling.
so yeah i agree with your idea to an extent. it is cool to have a game that gets more challenging for the sake of the main antagonist seeming more intimidating which i do think most games (if not all games) these days lack. but i think any typical gamer that is used to playing rpgs would probably implode once he sees that his stats are decreasing. so i still say that you must have the illusion of getting stronger in the form of numbers which we all know is what rpg players love.
i remember getting to level 30 and realizing that bandits which at one point took me three hits to kill with my iron dagger which did 3 damage, now took me ten hits with a daedric claymore with 20 damage. i was also finding myself in need of more and more healing potions too.
so i don't know if thats what the developers, bethesda, were going for, but i guess the idea that you are trying to communicate to us already has a name. a name that most rpg fanatics i know cringe upon hearing. that word would be level scaling.
so yeah i agree with your idea to an extent. it is cool to have a game that gets more challenging for the sake of the main antagonist seeming more intimidating which i do think most games (if not all games) these days lack. but i think any typical gamer that is used to playing rpgs would probably implode once he sees that his stats are decreasing. so i still say that you must have the illusion of getting stronger in the form of numbers which we all know is what rpg players love.
Hmmm... The idea is interesting, but probably couldn't work exactly as you've planned it out in the context of an MMORPG.
However, you could have it that same concept, but instead of getting weaker, a said player's avatar could just become more specific.
Por ejemplo: as a player progresses, instead of everything getting weaker regardless of the player's interest the player has a choice to stave off weakness of certain powers and skills except for a select few that will actually get better. This pool of powers will continually shrink as the player progresses until there are only about 2-3 extremely powerful spells. If spent in a more equal distribution throughout the game, a player could be very well-rounded, but none of the skills would be individually powerful as a player that only kept and maintained 1-3 instead.
This way (set in a setting like WoW), you could have archetypal mages that cast spells very quickly that are also powerful, but because those were the only 2 things focused on the variety of spells they could use at the end of the game will be incredibly limited; they would not have spells that allow them to run or teleport when cornered or conjure armor, etc. "Hunter" classes can become expert snipers with extreme range and power, but eventually lose their pets and trap powers as they focus on that single aspect of their class. A warrior could either put a lot of points into their armor and attacks - making them slow and cumbersome, but lethal in close quarters - or they could distribute the points equally to all their attributes and become very flexible in their class at the cost of not being particularly good at any single specific niche.
This mechanic would allow the player to experiment and explore with the controls, functions, and stratagem of the game and the chosen class at early levels, and as they progress and find out what methods and skills work best to their play style, will become more specific and tailored to each player's custom tastes while getting rid of all the clutter of irrelevant spells.
Shit, I talk too much. Interesting idea - with some polishing it very well could work.
However, you could have it that same concept, but instead of getting weaker, a said player's avatar could just become more specific.
Por ejemplo: as a player progresses, instead of everything getting weaker regardless of the player's interest the player has a choice to stave off weakness of certain powers and skills except for a select few that will actually get better. This pool of powers will continually shrink as the player progresses until there are only about 2-3 extremely powerful spells. If spent in a more equal distribution throughout the game, a player could be very well-rounded, but none of the skills would be individually powerful as a player that only kept and maintained 1-3 instead.
This way (set in a setting like WoW), you could have archetypal mages that cast spells very quickly that are also powerful, but because those were the only 2 things focused on the variety of spells they could use at the end of the game will be incredibly limited; they would not have spells that allow them to run or teleport when cornered or conjure armor, etc. "Hunter" classes can become expert snipers with extreme range and power, but eventually lose their pets and trap powers as they focus on that single aspect of their class. A warrior could either put a lot of points into their armor and attacks - making them slow and cumbersome, but lethal in close quarters - or they could distribute the points equally to all their attributes and become very flexible in their class at the cost of not being particularly good at any single specific niche.
This mechanic would allow the player to experiment and explore with the controls, functions, and stratagem of the game and the chosen class at early levels, and as they progress and find out what methods and skills work best to their play style, will become more specific and tailored to each player's custom tastes while getting rid of all the clutter of irrelevant spells.
Shit, I talk too much. Interesting idea - with some polishing it very well could work.
So a game where you start as a young man in the prime of their life and get older as the game goes, to the point where you're called for "one last mission" and have to accomplish it through sheer experience rather then brute force....
Interesting idea, would take talent to implement in a way that doesn't turn people off.
Interesting idea, would take talent to implement in a way that doesn't turn people off.
Well, I have to hand it to you, Yahtzee. I would be tempted to try out such a game. It's different and would be challenging. Plus, if it really WOULD have other features and a good story I can get into, it would be totally worth it.
Closest parallel I can think of is the first two Oddworld games, in which Abe (Hey, you guys remember Abe, right?) is mostly the weakest, most pathetic being in the whole wide world thrust into his trials with a frail body and infinite lives. And since Abe's Oddesee/Exoddus were both DAMN GOOD GAMES, your premise might actually work.
Closest parallel I can think of is the first two Oddworld games, in which Abe (Hey, you guys remember Abe, right?) is mostly the weakest, most pathetic being in the whole wide world thrust into his trials with a frail body and infinite lives. And since Abe's Oddesee/Exoddus were both DAMN GOOD GAMES, your premise might actually work.
I like the idea, but in practice it would be hell. Why would I keep playing if I would be consistently murdered by the same enemy if I had trouble with one when I was starting the game (which will definitely happen). I think that your idea about newbies being dumb and strong and the oldies being weak and wise is really cool though although what would be better is if you start out strong physically, up until say lvl 30, then you begin to become weaker but then your intellectual skills and magic become stronger, until you become a floating withered mage shooting lightning out your forehead.
I thought of some thing similar once when i was considering how God of War 2 (3 now as well I guess) had to hit a big reset button near the beginning of the game. It couldnt have you being a god, that put you on too even a footing so it had you drain your essence into a sword to turn it into a god slaying weapon, a rather arbitrary way of depowering you fudged into the plot to get you to begin the leveling process all over again.
I thought of a more modern setting for the RPG, like Deus Ex, and to simply steal the plot hook from DOA (Dead on Arrival) or Crank and have your chracter wake up poisened. Down leveling provided via poison wracking your system and plot motivation of trying to find out who/ why it was done to you.
I thought of a more modern setting for the RPG, like Deus Ex, and to simply steal the plot hook from DOA (Dead on Arrival) or Crank and have your chracter wake up poisened. Down leveling provided via poison wracking your system and plot motivation of trying to find out who/ why it was done to you.
It's an interesting idea in a raw kind of primordial sense, just too, limited and specific to be of a wide use.
You're right, it would make a great game.
ONE, great game.
The problem here is that it would make that one great game, but you're trying at equate a novel idea to a large game design paradigm.
You're right, if you look at it from your view point it's a bit tired and played, but, there's a reason why it's been around for so long, it works, not in a short one time interesting little game idea way, but as a making successfully working rpg games way.
It would be an interesting concept to develop into something that would work on a wider scale, or to develop more along the specific lines you're talking about for a specific game.
As an MMO it would never work, period, ever. You could possibly get a niche gamer market, and you would get lookyloos to stop by and check it out, but as an MMO, no. This type of game would have to be a single player majorly story driven experience since the story would be taking place of the leveling up.
Much of this is interesting in concept, the only way in which I feel your thinking is flawed is in how you're trying to relate a specific more narrow concept to the wider paradigm, missing seeing the actual big picture. Also the whole "the only way we'll break out of the usual is by doing stuff like this" thing is a bit nihilistic and short sighted. It's not the "only" way, it's a way, but that thinking in itself is also more of the "same old same old" thinking you were talking about. Personally I've had some of the same thoughts you appear to have, but, instead of trying to make some grand chaotic change and just see what happens I'd rather take what works and do something new with it, fix it, make it work better than it has before. It's evolution. Creatures don't mutate into an entire other species, they change and mutate to a degree.
You're right, it would make a great game.
ONE, great game.
The problem here is that it would make that one great game, but you're trying at equate a novel idea to a large game design paradigm.
You're right, if you look at it from your view point it's a bit tired and played, but, there's a reason why it's been around for so long, it works, not in a short one time interesting little game idea way, but as a making successfully working rpg games way.
It would be an interesting concept to develop into something that would work on a wider scale, or to develop more along the specific lines you're talking about for a specific game.
As an MMO it would never work, period, ever. You could possibly get a niche gamer market, and you would get lookyloos to stop by and check it out, but as an MMO, no. This type of game would have to be a single player majorly story driven experience since the story would be taking place of the leveling up.
Much of this is interesting in concept, the only way in which I feel your thinking is flawed is in how you're trying to relate a specific more narrow concept to the wider paradigm, missing seeing the actual big picture. Also the whole "the only way we'll break out of the usual is by doing stuff like this" thing is a bit nihilistic and short sighted. It's not the "only" way, it's a way, but that thinking in itself is also more of the "same old same old" thinking you were talking about. Personally I've had some of the same thoughts you appear to have, but, instead of trying to make some grand chaotic change and just see what happens I'd rather take what works and do something new with it, fix it, make it work better than it has before. It's evolution. Creatures don't mutate into an entire other species, they change and mutate to a degree.
That is quite possibly the dumbest idea for a video game RPG i have ever heard. It's one thing to perhaps propose someone concentrating on one or two skills, leveling them up considerably to the exclusion of others, but to actually lose skills or "level down"? The whole point of life, simulated as it is in an RPG is learning new skills, getting better at them, not UNlearning them. Of all of Yahtzee's crazy ideas this one has to take the cheesecake in being the stupidest, unworkable idea ever, probably right up there with Atari's ET.
Damn it, ninjaed.Who Dares Wins said:
BUT, to not be defeated, I'll mention Valkyrie Profile. While in a different sense of delevelling, to get the best ending you had to give up some of your heroes; the stronger the better. It makes the game more challenging as the game is on a limited time frame and have to play strategically to ensure you do the best decisions.
Really interesting. I do have a question though, what would the end-game be like? What would stop the new players to go straight to the end-game?
But yeah, really interesting as i already said.
But yeah, really interesting as i already said.
I know we're talking about RPGs, but in a way this is done in alot in fps's. Notice how when you start you always have lots of friends with you and (alot of the time) they get picked off until you're alone. Some examples would be Halo Reach, Turok, killzone, and more.