What if We Leveled Backwards?!
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
What about group play? It's hard to get an end game party with a healer with one healing spell, and only particular abilities for things like crowd control. Moves that you don't necessarily use for 'solo' play you would naturally drop, but those could be useful for group play-style.
I don't want to dip into things like PVP
but what about Re spec? In games where you have ability points, respec ing makes sense, because you want to dub your experience into something effective for you. It would not make sense that you "trainer" would have the ability to grant you all your powers, then you get to re chose what you loose. I don't want to get to level 1 then have to re roll upon finding out that my abilities mean nothing in endgame.
It's a great idea, but the basic template of which most MMO's operate, it would defiantly have bugs.
I don't want to dip into things like PVP
but what about Re spec? In games where you have ability points, respec ing makes sense, because you want to dub your experience into something effective for you. It would not make sense that you "trainer" would have the ability to grant you all your powers, then you get to re chose what you loose. I don't want to get to level 1 then have to re roll upon finding out that my abilities mean nothing in endgame.
It's a great idea, but the basic template of which most MMO's operate, it would defiantly have bugs.
I'd love this idea as a single player game (not really a big MMO fan), especially if it was more action oriented so that you could make up for lost abilities with skill more effectively.
I like it. Seems like the next logical step from Half-Minute Hero.
If you had posed the simple idea of "What if your level reset each time you beat a boss?" to random people before that it would have gotten a resounding "lolno" response.
Then half minute hero happened, and it was great. Simple, but it worked well.
It may need a sense of progression still though, like half minute hero had with keeping your equipment while losing your level. Perhaps you start as a young hero who initially is a blah blah stereotypical RPG superhero, however you continue to play as him as he creeps into old age and has to find ways to compensate for his failing health. Forbidden Magic, Alchemical "suppliments", stealing ancient artifacts, contracts with demons, etc.
Alone, it seems like a bad idea. But if you can put it in the right setting, it could be really fun.
If you had posed the simple idea of "What if your level reset each time you beat a boss?" to random people before that it would have gotten a resounding "lolno" response.
Then half minute hero happened, and it was great. Simple, but it worked well.
It may need a sense of progression still though, like half minute hero had with keeping your equipment while losing your level. Perhaps you start as a young hero who initially is a blah blah stereotypical RPG superhero, however you continue to play as him as he creeps into old age and has to find ways to compensate for his failing health. Forbidden Magic, Alchemical "suppliments", stealing ancient artifacts, contracts with demons, etc.
Alone, it seems like a bad idea. But if you can put it in the right setting, it could be really fun.
he was right in saying players would not want to play this game if they only level down.
but in a short game, probably action, it may work wonders.
the MAIN problem i see is that this is TOO MUCH outside the box for publishers to take to, they would just prefer to fund fifa 78 than this kind of game.
but in a short game, probably action, it may work wonders.
the MAIN problem i see is that this is TOO MUCH outside the box for publishers to take to, they would just prefer to fund fifa 78 than this kind of game.
I don't think this idea would do anything for RPG's except piss people off to the point of not playing. Where i see this idea as a potential gold mine is the stealth/action game genre. If this idea was directly applied to something like Arkham Asylum. If your maximum health started at 100% and went down by 10% after each major boss fight, and you lost tools (or had them destroyed in exciting ways) this be one way of ramping difficulty consistently through the game as levels progressed. Sure you could wipe the floor with three of jokers cronies at the start but with a broken arm and two shattered ribs the task is much more daunting.
This would be a great game, but it would only work in Single Player, for more or less the reasons that Yahtzee has already stated.
MMO's aren't really games that have progression through a storyline or world (some do, but most don't really). MMO's are actually more about progression compared to your peers. You want to try to be the best, the best there ever was.
MMO's aren't really games that have progression through a storyline or world (some do, but most don't really). MMO's are actually more about progression compared to your peers. You want to try to be the best, the best there ever was.
I recall an old SNES JRPG that did something to this sort, called 7th Saga. Going with the #7 theme you pick one of 7 hero's (and you could party with another) sent out by the king to find the 7 runes to use to defeat the great evil. It was brutally hard in the way old JRPG's could be, made even harder by limited inventory space for healing items, but each rune you found was a powerful tool that could be used without limit to do anything from casting buffs to casting heal spells. They were a crutch used not just for boss fights but most random encounters as well. So you collect all 7 gaining all their power and move on to confront the last boss... only to lose, get stripped of the runes, and tossed through a portal. You thought you were done but you're only a little over halfway through the game at this point, and half to do it all over again without the powerful free buffs and healing. The new 7 runes you have to collect now have the reverse effect of the originals and can only be used in the final boss fight.
It was a good game overall, nothing to memoriable that people would remember it like FF or Chrono Trigger, I'm just bringing it up because on a smaller scale to what Yahtzee is suggesting this did indeed up being a very good game mechanic. Like you get half way through the game and everything becomes new again.
It was a good game overall, nothing to memoriable that people would remember it like FF or Chrono Trigger, I'm just bringing it up because on a smaller scale to what Yahtzee is suggesting this did indeed up being a very good game mechanic. Like you get half way through the game and everything becomes new again.
I just got this same idea some days ago. Funny thing that. I really think it could be made to work.
You could do this as a science fiction game. Guy from an advanced civilization lands on a much more primitive planet. At the start of the game, you've got tons of guns, powered armor that recharges itself, effectivly unlimited ammo for all your guns, jump jets, super strength, ect, and you're fighting guys with swords, bows, and arrows; whole armies of bad guys are trying to attack this little village of good guys, and at first you're taking down whole armies of them easily. But as the game goes on, the solar generator on your powered armor gets damaged, and recharges slower; your portable bullet-producing factory breaks down, and you are suddenly limited with your ammo. Parts of your powered armor break or fail, leaving you with less and less protection. None of it lasts forever, and none of it can be replaced on this primitive planet, so by the end of the game, you've got almost none of your super-science left, and are left with just a sword, a bow, and possibly a handgun with a rapidly dwindling supply of bullets.
The idea of the character himself getting weaker is kind of depressing, but your equipment failing, piece by piece, leaving you more and more to fend for yourself? That sounds cool.
The idea of the character himself getting weaker is kind of depressing, but your equipment failing, piece by piece, leaving you more and more to fend for yourself? That sounds cool.
For some reason this idea reminded me of "Lord of the Rings". Remember how Frodo and Sam were at the beginning of the journey as opposed to the end?
I like the concept overall too. It makes me think of what Yahtzee has said about being stealthy in some games as a symbol of skill. Anyone can run into a room with guns blazing an mow everything down, but someone with skill could go through without anyone knowing they're there. A player who has leveled down so much and gone through a game will have that sort of skill to beat that final boss with a twig and dental floss, because he doesn't need anything else at that point.
This is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea. In fact, Yahtzee, though people do partially play through games in order to progress through the story, playing in order to get stronger is an equally fundamental desire. Take that away and I and many people would not even consider playing it. It might make for an interesting indie internet game, but it would never fly as a mainstream title.
It's definitely an interesting idea. I can't really see it working as an MMO though. As a single-player campaign, I can easily see the toll the fighting is taking on your character as a kind of wake up call to the player. "Shit...this is a pretty serious deal."
It could become a pretty emotionally draining journey, as the player realizes that they may not be strong enough to take on this major challenge. I would REALLY like to something like this done.
It could become a pretty emotionally draining journey, as the player realizes that they may not be strong enough to take on this major challenge. I would REALLY like to something like this done.
Would not work as an MMO. Maybe as a single-player game. The concept has a distinctively indie feel too it, and it would probably work better in a short, low budget title. Honestly, the only way I could see this working is if you took away a player's brute strength while replacing it with smarter ways to fight.
BTW, didn't they do something like this in Haze?
BTW, didn't they do something like this in Haze?
Only in single player. There needs to be a defining quest which frames all of this-a motivation and cause that makes the player WANT to give up everything in pursuit of it. Sort of like how Shadow of the Colossus did character degradation to build menace.
I know people probably aren't big into them, but Dan Abnett has a bunch of extremely nerdy Warhammer 40k novels that all follow this EXACT template.
The hero and his squad is introduced as supremely awesome, they quash a minor (but still memorable) threat so you can see how unbeatable they are, then they embark on a massive campaign which physically and emotionally drains them, turning friends against each other and leaving 1 or 2 of the most beloved characters crawling towards their goals on broken legs; using their last ounce of strength to somehow delay the inevitable and save the world.
I read these books because, whatever else they are, they aren't boring. The Ultramarines omnibus probably did the best job at this, showing how the pride of Imperial mettle gradually becomes little better than a subhuman creature, winning battles against monstrous evil solely through willpower and the ability to sacrifice anything but principle. I think this concept could work in a game, and has worked in games to a lesser extent (Crono), but it needs a story so poignant, beautiful and heartbreaking that players will care enough to give up Fiery Death Lv. 7 to see where this is going.
I know people probably aren't big into them, but Dan Abnett has a bunch of extremely nerdy Warhammer 40k novels that all follow this EXACT template.
The hero and his squad is introduced as supremely awesome, they quash a minor (but still memorable) threat so you can see how unbeatable they are, then they embark on a massive campaign which physically and emotionally drains them, turning friends against each other and leaving 1 or 2 of the most beloved characters crawling towards their goals on broken legs; using their last ounce of strength to somehow delay the inevitable and save the world.
I read these books because, whatever else they are, they aren't boring. The Ultramarines omnibus probably did the best job at this, showing how the pride of Imperial mettle gradually becomes little better than a subhuman creature, winning battles against monstrous evil solely through willpower and the ability to sacrifice anything but principle. I think this concept could work in a game, and has worked in games to a lesser extent (Crono), but it needs a story so poignant, beautiful and heartbreaking that players will care enough to give up Fiery Death Lv. 7 to see where this is going.
I think it would be great as a single player game, like in a story context(maybe a Greek tragedy) ,but as a MMO i don't think that wold be a good thing.I would love to see this game even as just an indie experiment.
Maybe at the climax you might gain some powers back and wither away and then die...dramatically as your child watches vowing vengeance upon the game designers who cursed you with such misery.
Maybe at the climax you might gain some powers back and wither away and then die...dramatically as your child watches vowing vengeance upon the game designers who cursed you with such misery.
To be honest, I'd rather have a slower rate of progression in RPGs, while having some skills neutralize/weaken other skills. I'd have things like money becoming scarcer, weapons diminishing, but in a game revolving around no less than a hero, a symbol of hope and victory, the character needs to remain strong. Now tell me something, in these movies where the hero has been losing everything and diminishing, what has actually been diminished? It's usually the party, their items, the availability of whatever they need, right? The party actually gets stronger through this adversity, however.
Take, for example, the king of all trope abusers. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Whether or not you can stand anime, this is one of the most important series around, and everyone who's into dissecting popular culture should watch it. I will probably write a thesis on it at some point. I'm going to have the rest in spoilers, for those who for some reason haven't finished it yet.
Reiterated through gaming terms, They have to give up everything in their posession (i.e., all of their items hidden purposes are fulfilled) to win the battle. Since the beginning, Simon has risen from common digger in the underground village he was born in, to slayer of tyrants. Does that sound like a reverse levelling system? And keep in mind, that this show is a literal translation of every trope in existence. Look at the tropes page on TV tropes. It's all there, to the point that once when I checked it, they had each alphabetized and each letter had its own folder. The issue with these games, then, is that the difficulty does not increase enough. I was about to say that it isn't because the character is overpowered, but he/she is. Leveling up needs to be something that takes effort, and skills need to be rewarded according to how these level ups are accomplishe, not some arbitrary point system which has certain playstyles the player can aspire to.
I've been wanting a full re-design of the RPG system for a long time. Of all things, COD 4 seems to be the step in the right direction, if only from an RPG-lite standpoint. What would have made this more compelling for me would have been certain actions only unlocking certain skills. Lets say the player needs to reload a lot. They need to do this multiple times before dying, each round. If the player does this enough, they unlock the fast hands perk. If a player sprints often, after a while they'll unlock the marathon perk; I'd like to see a full-on, hardcore RPG game implement something in this vein, rather than perk trees. I for one, would like to earn my perks, rather than peruse the 'Warrior' aisle of the level up system.
Take, for example, the king of all trope abusers. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Whether or not you can stand anime, this is one of the most important series around, and everyone who's into dissecting popular culture should watch it. I will probably write a thesis on it at some point. I'm going to have the rest in spoilers, for those who for some reason haven't finished it yet.
Okay, so we have the battle at Tepperin/Teppelin, depending on the translation you've got. They've got the Dai-Gurren, Gurren Lagann, and a small brigade at their command. First, they have to give up Dai-Gurren, by smashing his enormous dic-err, bow into the enemy city and blowing it up. But, in this show, all of their mech-suits run on fighting spirit, so their sacrifice only throws them into greater fits of tempered rage, until all that remains is Simon in Lagann fighting the Spiral King. Eventually, Lagann is ruined too, and Simon thrusts the Spiral key, the manifestation of his fighting spirit into the chest of the Spiral King, leaving him undone. A hopeless battle, won by the power of their spirit.
Reiterated through gaming terms, They have to give up everything in their posession (i.e., all of their items hidden purposes are fulfilled) to win the battle. Since the beginning, Simon has risen from common digger in the underground village he was born in, to slayer of tyrants. Does that sound like a reverse levelling system? And keep in mind, that this show is a literal translation of every trope in existence. Look at the tropes page on TV tropes. It's all there, to the point that once when I checked it, they had each alphabetized and each letter had its own folder. The issue with these games, then, is that the difficulty does not increase enough. I was about to say that it isn't because the character is overpowered, but he/she is. Leveling up needs to be something that takes effort, and skills need to be rewarded according to how these level ups are accomplishe, not some arbitrary point system which has certain playstyles the player can aspire to.
I've been wanting a full re-design of the RPG system for a long time. Of all things, COD 4 seems to be the step in the right direction, if only from an RPG-lite standpoint. What would have made this more compelling for me would have been certain actions only unlocking certain skills. Lets say the player needs to reload a lot. They need to do this multiple times before dying, each round. If the player does this enough, they unlock the fast hands perk. If a player sprints often, after a while they'll unlock the marathon perk; I'd like to see a full-on, hardcore RPG game implement something in this vein, rather than perk trees. I for one, would like to earn my perks, rather than peruse the 'Warrior' aisle of the level up system.