What if We Leveled Backwards?!

[mattaui]

I think this is an interesting discussion to have in order for us to fully understand why we have the concept of levels and characters gaining power, but it speaks more to pacing and overall gameplay. You mentioned the hero's journey, and I think that can still happen while the character gets more powerful, as the character still has plenty to lose other than his abilities. Friends and family can die, old beliefs can be shown to be false, the longtime enemy can turn out to be a friend and the trusted advisor a vile traitor, and so on and so forth. You can strip someone down from who they were, weakening and destroying the old self while still allowing them to throw a mean punch, cast a better spell or shoot a gun better.

The hero's journey isn't about growing weaker, but about being cast away from anything and everyone the hero knew or cared about, being brought to the very edge of doubting who and maybe even what he is, and then emerging into the new identity of the hero (or failing and falling into darkness and death).

It would best be handled in a single-player game, as your own discussion shows how ultimately ridiculous it would feel in an MMO setting, at least the way we understand MMOs today. It risks feeling very gimmicky and forced, and the more I think about it the more I wonder if it would really be properly handled as a game or if such concepts really only work in a more traditional narrative structure, as opposed to something interactive.

 

[Matwisto]

This article made me think of Desktop Dungeons.
http://www.qcfdesign.com/?cat=20
This game does not level backwards, but it does have an extreme focus on resource management.
I think sidequests in Yahtzee's game would have to be a resource.
You could gain the respect of a region, in exchange for aging.
You couldn't spend all of your time rallying troops, you have to charge Mordor eventually.

 

[s0meNo0b]

This is an interesting idea, but it's kind of hard for me to imagine a game like that. If there was one I'd certainly try it, give me something different.

Hmm... perhaps instead of leveling down skills and what not maybe your drained of your equipment and resources, maybe your character is exhausted and you progessively slow down and do less _________.

 

[signingupforgames]

The idea that leveling down seems to be an interesting one, i will admit that. But one of the reasons i believe people play games is to feel empowered. Stripping a god-king of his powers until he's nothing but an insignificant bug, may be a good story, but it falls flat unless the entirety of the game is flawless. What i think is that the spells you do use level up, but PAINFULLY slowly (based on number of enemies killed(no hold down spell button infinite experience)). In this way you still give the player a way to feel more powerful,but still give them a feeling of powerlessness at the same time.

 

[MatthewGill]

I do like this idea, like you said it needs a good story element to make it work. I dont care what it is, a curse, a disease, anything just to make it acceptable. I recently completed Demon's Souls, great game by the way, and once I got the demonbrandt, I believe, in world 1-1 after defeating Old King Doran I was able to breeze through the entire world 5. World 2 was challenging, 3 was confusing in the jail but the bosses were easier than most, 4 was fun with a good final boss, and World 1 especially 1-3 and 1-4 were a good challenge. However with new sword in hand world 5 was to easy the bosses were jokes and the only problem was the poison and slow effect of the swamp of 5-2. This can be changed with limiting grinding and such but thats not the point. The point is balance, this sword I had gave me such an advantage it was ridiculous. And the problem with open-world games is balance, sure 3-1 has easier enemies than 3-2 but they need to me equivalent to the 4-1 and 4-2 respectively. So in addition to having a reason the game must also be fairly linear so a player does not jump to a harder area with near max abilities and slowly works down by jumping around. The balance and pacing need to be spot on for this idea to work, but if it were to succeed the game could be great. Great idea!

 

[starwarsgeek]

I wouldn't mind seeing a game, maybe a series, based on this idea, but I think the standard for RPGs should always be facing stronger enemies, not becoming weaker as you progress.

 

[civver]

While compelling from a story point of view, I prefer having more access to gameplay options over time. The opposite kills replay value immensely, something I treasure a lot in a game.

 

[YouShouldDeleteThisAccount]

In terms of gameplay, too late. This idea has been done in a Rogue-like called A Quest Too Far. Which was made in 7 days as part of the "7 Day Rogue-Like" event.

http://www.randomstuff.org.uk/~geoffrey/roguelikes/aquesttoofar.html

It's not fantastic though. Although for a game made in a week it's understandable.

 

[ark123]

These ideas work in a single player world, never in a MMORPG.
In WoW, people play to "be the best of their class in the planet earth". Hence, the repeated raiding of the same boss until you have two of the same X, or complete your Y set. Nobody is going to play end game content where you kill level 1 lizards to get "paper breastplate - beginner", having slayed thousands of wizard-gods in the start of the game.

 

[voidraz]

I really like this idea, in a way. If nothing else, more developers should spend some time thinking outside of the box.

I see this failing as an MMO idea, but fitting very well into a tragic story. I liked the idea you pitched of starting as a revered and respected champion of your kingdom, having to fight an ongoing war of phyrrhic victories against the villain, reaching the final battle with you on your last leg and only your strength of will keeping you going.

I sure couldn't see a happy ending coming out of such a story, though.

 

[AlienCollective]

In Diane Duane's ?So You Want to Be a Wizard? series, younger wizards have more power, while older wizards have skill. It works well (and makes sense) in a fictional universe populated by fictional people, and it might even work in a real universe populated by real people. It wouldn't, however, work in a fictional universe populated by real people, because it assumes that no one will ever go back and start a new character. I don't know anyone who has only one character in WoW.

 

[Colton Burton]

ahhh brilliant

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

I think it would work better in a shorter game, centred around one aspect of a larger story.

For example, a downloadable game about the Battle of Helms Deep from Lord of the Rings, wherein you'd start off with a full set of well-maintained equipment and ample Stamina/Mana and Health, but it gradually wore down along with the battle. Eventually you'd need to start making use of rocks, Orc/Uruk weapons, or use the dregs of Potions lying about just to survive a one-on-one encounter.

It would probably be better for a sidestory to say, Red Dead or Dragon Age, as we know how Helms Deep ended.

 

[Narcogen]

I think we all do this. I'm pretty sure it's called aging.

Which is why, from a narrative standpoint, this works beautifully as a concept. You can see the whole game as a metaphor for growing old and dying, for being past your prime, and yet still trying to make a difference in the world. You go from a true superman to an individual weak but wise. Again, this would be a very sad game, but I think in that sense incredibly moving, which is something we need in games.

That can be an interesting element, but I think it would be a serious downer for a gamer to play the first level and know that he'll never have more fun than that.

Why not a bell curve? Why not a game that follows the rise into your prime, and then the fall afterwards? If the first half manages to get the player invested in the character he or she is playing and the world they inhabit, then hopefully they'll stick with it once the stats start to ebb, the equipment starts to degrade, and the super powers are lost.

As an aside-- what distinguishes this from the "degrading equipment" mechanic, which Yahtzee hates?

 

[Lunaras13]

This would work best as a puzzle game. Think if you played legend of zelda and started with the claw hook and boomerang and all that stuff from the beginning, but each level whatever you used the most to get through it was broken during the boss encounter. it would mean every level had 50 different ways to get through and be really re playable, as well as making it so each thing you lose means the next location will take that much longer to complete

 

[WaReloaded]

"I couldn't help noticing that the bottom and sides of my screen had gradually become wallpapered with miscellaneous spells, some of which I never used at all. If the player started with all of those, they could decide straight away (well, after some experimentation) which ones best complimented their play style, making the choices of what skills and spells to get rid of initially easy and increasingly heart-rending."

Excellent point, Yahtzee!
I think the current system whilst effective is showing its age, the on screen clutter can reach overwhelming proportions (especially with the addition of UI mods, despite the fact that some of which are designed to remove some of this unnecessary clutter). That is why I agree that something must be done, or at least, altered so that their are more UI minimization options, perhaps.

 

[Joshimodo]

So, basically, Lord of the Rings. Start out with armour, weapons, food, sanity etc., and end up having to fight tooth and nail to even get up a mountainside.

Sounds pretty good, actually.

While I wouldn't want all my stuff to be lost/useless, I'd appreciate gaining the strength and powers to even BE ABLE to combat the later stuff, rather than gaining them to walk over the enemies with ease.

 

[guchifaN7]

This may be just nucking futs enough to actually work! Yahtzee, you mad genius!

 

[Llasnad]

If done correctly, this concept would work very well. But you would have to walk a very fine line for a game made using these mechanics. My idea would be to start with a variety of magical powers, but a limited combat ability; so as you progress through the game, at certain critical points and battles you are forced to expend large amounts of magic, growing weaker and losing many of your starting powers, but gaining combat ability to show that while your character loses his initial powers, he is still learning and growing, gainging powers of a different nature. I see a lot of potential, specially from a story telling point of view, but also in game mechanics. While your initial powers are mighty, the progress of the game gives you more range in combat, unlocking more moves and weapon choices as your magic withers away.

The concept would work well with a god-like character, who comes down to a fantasy land to stem the tide of some dark foe intent on bringing about total destruction of the world. The idea is that the longer you spend in this world has a side effect of making you more and more mortal, and by the time you reach the end of the game, you have lost all divine power, and must now fight to save the world as a mortal against godlike beings, the inverse of the beginning, where you were a godlike being fighting against mortals.

It works well as a game play mechanic and for character growth as well. When the protagonist first arrives he is haughty and self righteous, acting like a god among mortals, simply assuming that with his mighty powers he can set right all that is wrong with ease. But as things progress, and he is forced to become more and more human, coming to terms with shades of gray and making moral choices that a god has never had to contemplate before.

 

[Ethman91]

How about you start at these godlike levels and you lose the gradually until about halfway through the storyline and then when your at rock bottom, you have an intervention and begin building back up to your godlike status reclaiming your powers? Kinda like the beginning of God of War 2 but more gradual.