Good idea, you should get someone on that immediately. To be frank, I hate MMORPGs more than any other genre, but if this game was made I'd definitely sign up ^.^
What if We Leveled Backwards?!
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
This concept reminds me, in some ways, like the old stories of travelers giving away their supplies to beggars, then to be rewarded for their generosity. If structured like that, the concept might hold some weight.
It will never work online though, unless it's a work of masterpiece. Most multiplayer games are based on being better and stronger then your opponent. A game based on this concept would be hard pressed to find an audience that would appreciate the value of losing your abilities and becoming a humble character.
It sounds more a concept that could flourish as part of a single-player story driven game, where you can really tie the mechanic of losing your abilities into how generous you are to the NPCs along your travels. I imagine it like this:
The game opens up on the main character studying the art of combat and (let's just say) magic. You play a series of challenges and for the first portion of the game you develop and learn these skills, leveling up until finally you best your rival and fellow students and venture off to learn more from the outside world. Your last lesson from your teacher is how to share your magic with others, though the trick takes it's toll on the users body and you're advised to use it sparingly. Now as you begin your new quest you are as strong as you can possibly be in terms of strength, speed, and magic.
As you travel though you come across a series of poor souls and troubled people who you are given the option to aid them by giving up your powers to them. As you do you ether lose power or gain alternative powers, having to rely mainly on basic survival and combat gameplay techniques like avoidance, sneak attacks, tricks and tactics instead of pure strength and magic to take down the ever more challenging overworld enemies and creatures.. The more generous you are the more you have to rely on and learn these strengths, and learn how to play the game without aid of magic. This creates a difficulty curve that is gradual allowing you to ease into the challenge. Towards the end the game rewards you by returning your powers at your lowest point, facing down a final boss and ending on a high note.
Adversely, if you play the game without being generous and breezing through with your powers the game will confront you with moments of weakness and spikes in difficulties that you normally wouldn't be prepared to face without having learned the skills earned by limiting your powers.
Simply put, the weaker you make your character the stronger you grow as a player.
The storytelling possibilities of this concept can be great, I think it'd be a great way to craft an interesting gameplay environment. It'd certainly be better suited for a free-roaming title then a turn-based one, but it certainly isn't limited.
Those are my thoughts on the matter.
It will never work online though, unless it's a work of masterpiece. Most multiplayer games are based on being better and stronger then your opponent. A game based on this concept would be hard pressed to find an audience that would appreciate the value of losing your abilities and becoming a humble character.
It sounds more a concept that could flourish as part of a single-player story driven game, where you can really tie the mechanic of losing your abilities into how generous you are to the NPCs along your travels. I imagine it like this:
The game opens up on the main character studying the art of combat and (let's just say) magic. You play a series of challenges and for the first portion of the game you develop and learn these skills, leveling up until finally you best your rival and fellow students and venture off to learn more from the outside world. Your last lesson from your teacher is how to share your magic with others, though the trick takes it's toll on the users body and you're advised to use it sparingly. Now as you begin your new quest you are as strong as you can possibly be in terms of strength, speed, and magic.
As you travel though you come across a series of poor souls and troubled people who you are given the option to aid them by giving up your powers to them. As you do you ether lose power or gain alternative powers, having to rely mainly on basic survival and combat gameplay techniques like avoidance, sneak attacks, tricks and tactics instead of pure strength and magic to take down the ever more challenging overworld enemies and creatures.. The more generous you are the more you have to rely on and learn these strengths, and learn how to play the game without aid of magic. This creates a difficulty curve that is gradual allowing you to ease into the challenge. Towards the end the game rewards you by returning your powers at your lowest point, facing down a final boss and ending on a high note.
Adversely, if you play the game without being generous and breezing through with your powers the game will confront you with moments of weakness and spikes in difficulties that you normally wouldn't be prepared to face without having learned the skills earned by limiting your powers.
Simply put, the weaker you make your character the stronger you grow as a player.
The storytelling possibilities of this concept can be great, I think it'd be a great way to craft an interesting gameplay environment. It'd certainly be better suited for a free-roaming title then a turn-based one, but it certainly isn't limited.
Those are my thoughts on the matter.
That is a good idea.
I especially like the idea of some kind of pilgrimage as a reason for getting rid of powers.
It could be like Final Fantasy X but in reverse.
I especially like the idea of some kind of pilgrimage as a reason for getting rid of powers.
It could be like Final Fantasy X but in reverse.
These ideas don't really sound very interesting. In fact they sound like something that would make the game kinda boring and uninteresting. I don't know about you but part of the fun in a game is progressing in the game getting more powerful abilities that are fun to use and awesome to experience. This does remind me of a plan where I make I try to eliminate grind by just having attacks do a small amount of damage and a hp limit that's very low for most of the game. The strategy then would just be using the right moves within a certain power limit. Eventually the enemies get many more tricks that drain your power at a more consistent rate or in semi larger chunks than normal. Your only real solution to the problem however is to use the most powerful moves in your arsenal but at that point it makes the battle fair.
Not trying to be mean here, man, but your bolded text loses all meaning when you bold that much. It's like shouting an entire speech: no emphasis on anything.AdamRBi said:
It's an interesting idea to be sure and the general idea is worth looking into, but doubt it would work for most kinds of games, especially MMO's.
One reason why you start off a game weak and with the bare minimum of tools is so players can learn the basics and gradually learn new skills as they are introduced. For example in WoW the game started you off at level 85 and dumped the whole collection of spells on you at once, I would think most people would feel overwhelmed and just give up after a few min...especially newcomers to a genre.
Honestly I think that the problem of a game becoming too easy toward the end is a sign of poor game/level design than with the leveling system. If the player gets stronger, faster, smarter, etc. then game designers need to make the enemies and levels grow as stronger, faster, smarter, etc. as well so they are always ahead of the player.
One reason why you start off a game weak and with the bare minimum of tools is so players can learn the basics and gradually learn new skills as they are introduced. For example in WoW the game started you off at level 85 and dumped the whole collection of spells on you at once, I would think most people would feel overwhelmed and just give up after a few min...especially newcomers to a genre.
Honestly I think that the problem of a game becoming too easy toward the end is a sign of poor game/level design than with the leveling system. If the player gets stronger, faster, smarter, etc. then game designers need to make the enemies and levels grow as stronger, faster, smarter, etc. as well so they are always ahead of the player.
Ooooh! If I ran a video game company, I'd "borrow" this idea for further evaluation.
But I'm not.
Excellent idea, nonetheless.
But I'm not.
Excellent idea, nonetheless.
It's interesting but I doubt it could work as an MMO, at least not currently.
I actually DO play some games to make my character get stronger as I go, I enjoy defining him and his abilities. A game like this would have to be more based around the story, which while WoW certainly has some, it isn't exactly the prime focus.
It's interesting but it wouldn't be easy to do. I spent like 10 minutes thinking how to phrase this and that one boring sentence is what I finished with... sigh
I actually DO play some games to make my character get stronger as I go, I enjoy defining him and his abilities. A game like this would have to be more based around the story, which while WoW certainly has some, it isn't exactly the prime focus.
It's interesting but it wouldn't be easy to do. I spent like 10 minutes thinking how to phrase this and that one boring sentence is what I finished with... sigh
This idea seems like, for the most part, it's too contrived.
There's a lot to be said for games where you start off with all your powers, via preview or "soon to be lost," but even that would get tiresome. This would need to be heavily orchestrated every time, and it would get old fast.
There's a lot to be said for games where you start off with all your powers, via preview or "soon to be lost," but even that would get tiresome. This would need to be heavily orchestrated every time, and it would get old fast.
Sounds good.
However...I see a bit of a contradiction in that at the very end of the game....the Final boss will essentially have to be the weakest enemy you fought throughout the entire game. Which kinda takes away from his status as being the King Pin of the entire games complication.
However, Perhaps this could be explained by writing the story around the fact that every enemy of his you dispose of lessens his power as well as your own...
Im sure there are a number of ways to explain this through story
Who knows...you could chuck an Ichigo from Bleach and even though you cant stand and have lost an oceans worth of bodily fluids, you still manage to fill up your angst meter and blow the surrounding terrain into grains of sand and clumps of boss meat.
However...I see a bit of a contradiction in that at the very end of the game....the Final boss will essentially have to be the weakest enemy you fought throughout the entire game. Which kinda takes away from his status as being the King Pin of the entire games complication.
However, Perhaps this could be explained by writing the story around the fact that every enemy of his you dispose of lessens his power as well as your own...
Im sure there are a number of ways to explain this through story
Who knows...you could chuck an Ichigo from Bleach and even though you cant stand and have lost an oceans worth of bodily fluids, you still manage to fill up your angst meter and blow the surrounding terrain into grains of sand and clumps of boss meat.
Hey! Found my local copy.Formica Archonis said:
If you win the game, you don't have to play the sequel.
I like the concept and think it could work well, but the reason for giving up spells seems a bit contrived. If you had tasks ahead of you that you knew would weaken you once they are completed, you would be at the very least hesitant when choosing the next task to go after.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
What it needs is something else that takes the abilities away. With the tasks no longer being the catalyst for losing abilities, the player is far more likely to want to do them.
I'd have a story where some sort of intangible evil has spread over the land and is sucking up all the magic, and no matter what you do it starts draining your abilities. The player is made to understand that if they do not act, and act fast to find this evil and rid the world of it, they will be reduced to a helpless wreck. Now the player will want to blaze through their tasks with gusto, and the story remains a tense race against time as they seek out the source of evil, knowing that the spell they love to use the most could disappear at any moment. Game saving would need a careful think too.
Oh, and good luck with Mana Bar Melbourne- we're all counting on you...
Man, this is a fantastic idea. I don't mean this sarcastically either.
What if new players started out as a big bald man with so much power that all he needed to do was button mash to win. A blank slate. Then the villain shows up and curses you, which explains the gradual loss of power.
There DOES have to be a trade-off however. I'm thinking better customization and traits with cooler combination moves. A world that admires your power loss with and finishes with an epic ending.
Like say in the end, you've become an old, weak man. The villain that cursed you now has all your power and looks exactly like how you started out. You beat him with all your acquired moves and timing and maybe die or something. The world you've helped in your quest builds a statue of you in your honor or something.
What if new players started out as a big bald man with so much power that all he needed to do was button mash to win. A blank slate. Then the villain shows up and curses you, which explains the gradual loss of power.
There DOES have to be a trade-off however. I'm thinking better customization and traits with cooler combination moves. A world that admires your power loss with and finishes with an epic ending.
Like say in the end, you've become an old, weak man. The villain that cursed you now has all your power and looks exactly like how you started out. You beat him with all your acquired moves and timing and maybe die or something. The world you've helped in your quest builds a statue of you in your honor or something.
Unfortunately the school legally owns the game because it was produced using their equipment, and it was just a school project and not intended to be sold. I tried to look for it online, but unfortunately I couldn't even find a Youtube video of it! Sorry!yoyo13rom said:
...Up until the point where you beat the bad guy, and then you're back to Godhood.
And the badguys will never change...in fact they're going to have to get weaker...or you'll be grinding.
In fact, if you give away your powers to enter new realms, and then have to fight hugely massive creatures with your DPS going down and down and down...
Then that's exactly what happens anyway...the levelling is just an illusion, up or down.
And the badguys will never change...in fact they're going to have to get weaker...or you'll be grinding.
In fact, if you give away your powers to enter new realms, and then have to fight hugely massive creatures with your DPS going down and down and down...
Then that's exactly what happens anyway...the levelling is just an illusion, up or down.
I like the concept for something like SoTC, where you don't really level up anyways so you could simply slightly weaken each time to up the difficulty, but for any type of RPG it would fail for one main reason: Sidequests.
I'm one of those players who likes to do every little thing in a game and max out characters and such and take the side paths whenever possible. This means usually I end up overpowered but I'm still enjoying the experience and I get rewarded by feeling like I'm stronger because of it. If I'm leveling negatively then it basically punishes those who like to stray from the main path and will make the main quests more difficult (or even possibly impossible to accomplish since you can't grind to make it easier since it will simply get even harder) so it will discourage exploration and instead encourage a player to simply rush through the main story and not enjoy any of the rest of the game. THAT is a HUGE downside for me and anyone else who enjoys exploring the game world whenever we want.
I'm one of those players who likes to do every little thing in a game and max out characters and such and take the side paths whenever possible. This means usually I end up overpowered but I'm still enjoying the experience and I get rewarded by feeling like I'm stronger because of it. If I'm leveling negatively then it basically punishes those who like to stray from the main path and will make the main quests more difficult (or even possibly impossible to accomplish since you can't grind to make it easier since it will simply get even harder) so it will discourage exploration and instead encourage a player to simply rush through the main story and not enjoy any of the rest of the game. THAT is a HUGE downside for me and anyone else who enjoys exploring the game world whenever we want.
I think this is an interesting discussion to have in order for us to fully understand why we have the concept of levels and characters gaining power, but it speaks more to pacing and overall gameplay. You mentioned the hero's journey, and I think that can still happen while the character gets more powerful, as the character still has plenty to lose other than his abilities. Friends and family can die, old beliefs can be shown to be false, the longtime enemy can turn out to be a friend and the trusted advisor a vile traitor, and so on and so forth. You can strip someone down from who they were, weakening and destroying the old self while still allowing them to throw a mean punch, cast a better spell or shoot a gun better.
The hero's journey isn't about growing weaker, but about being cast away from anything and everyone the hero knew or cared about, being brought to the very edge of doubting who and maybe even what he is, and then emerging into the new identity of the hero (or failing and falling into darkness and death).
It would best be handled in a single-player game, as your own discussion shows how ultimately ridiculous it would feel in an MMO setting, at least the way we understand MMOs today. It risks feeling very gimmicky and forced, and the more I think about it the more I wonder if it would really be properly handled as a game or if such concepts really only work in a more traditional narrative structure, as opposed to something interactive.
The hero's journey isn't about growing weaker, but about being cast away from anything and everyone the hero knew or cared about, being brought to the very edge of doubting who and maybe even what he is, and then emerging into the new identity of the hero (or failing and falling into darkness and death).
It would best be handled in a single-player game, as your own discussion shows how ultimately ridiculous it would feel in an MMO setting, at least the way we understand MMOs today. It risks feeling very gimmicky and forced, and the more I think about it the more I wonder if it would really be properly handled as a game or if such concepts really only work in a more traditional narrative structure, as opposed to something interactive.