What if We Leveled Backwards?!

[beleester]

crazy idea for RPGs that might actually work.

I'd have a story where some sort of intangible evil has spread over the land and is sucking up all the magic, and no matter what you do it starts draining your abilities. The player is made to understand that if they do not act, and act fast to find this evil and rid the world of it, they will be reduced to a helpless wreck. Now the player will want to blaze through their tasks with gusto, and the story remains a tense race against time as they seek out the source of evil, knowing that the spell they love to use the most could disappear at any moment. Game saving would need a careful think too.

You might want to look into The Void. It's got that tense race against time, as your Color (health) constantly ticks away and you need to keep seeking out new sources to feed on.

Anyway, for this idea to work, you need to make sure you don't remove any game mechanics entirely, since an experienced player wants a more complex game. So I think that you should make each power harder to use, so that the player needs to be more inventive with limited resources, but keep it essentially the same. So your Generic Powered-Armor Space Marine starts out in a big sandbox full of dudes to shoot with a BFG and a jetpack and super strength and a gravity gun and his own theme music. But as the battle wears on, he gets limits on each of his abilities. His BFG runs out of batteries so it now has limited ammo and he has to scavenge. His jetpack is damaged and it can only fly for 10 seconds at a time. His super-strength is weaker and he can only throw bricks instead of cars at his foes.

So you still have all the abilities, but you can't abuse them to obliterate everything in your path. You have to think carefully about how to use them. What if you have to line up your enemies so you can get them in a single shot? Your jetpack will let you leap across the chasm, but can you find a safe place to rest while it recharges?

It also lends itself to a bunch of other design benefits. Giving them all the abilities at the start lets you train the player in more clever uses that they'll need. For example, you could put a bunch of enemies in a clump to let the player see how to get them all with one BFG shot. You could also give the player a breather by giving them a temporary boost back to full strength, so they can relax and go on a rampage. Or you could force the player to redo an earlier section with their limited abilities, so they can see how much stronger they've become.

 

[Llasnad]

How about you start at these godlike levels and you lose the gradually until about halfway through the storyline and then when your at rock bottom, you have an intervention and begin building back up to your godlike status reclaiming your powers? Kinda like the beginning of God of War 2 but more gradual.

That would work, but would need to be handle very gingerly, or you lose much of the impact in the whole becoming human aspect of the game. I think the best way to handle that is to break the game into parts or have it be an episodic adventure. Have the first part end with the now mortal God defeating his mortal adversary. The big boss who has been leading the enemies through out the game, and who has some divine power gifted to him by entities behind the scenes. So you are still at a handicap as you fight a being with powers you once possessed and are now forced to thwart to end his reign of evil. As he falls, the true foe behind the threat is revealed, powerful godlike beings manipulating the mortals to bring about the destruction.

The opening of the 2nd part has you will all of your combat ability and none of the magic, forced to seek out a divine source of power, and training your mortal form to wield the power so you can vanquish your godlike enemies. The 3rd part raps up the game with you having to transcend the mortal planes and taking the fight to your enemies.

 

[Freaky Gonzalez]

mmmm Since i'm lazy to read through the 282 comments posted the idea is really good... also it's been done before so it's actually been proven that it works... the undead campaign in Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne had Arthas leveling down each level sometimes 2 levels at a time, the only diference would be that it's single player and that at the VERY end arthas is able to regain all his leveling. which is interesting because he's leveling up while fighting an ultimate level hero (illidan for those who care)... so yeah... it'd be a VERY interesting concept to add to an MMO, but as for the RPG part... it's been done...

 

[Llasnad]

the undead campaign in Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne had Arthas leveling down each level sometimes 2 levels at a time

So far, that is the only game I keep hearing. Just because it was done once, and that is only a small aspect of Warcraft 3, doesnt mean that it has been proven that a game can be based on that as a primary game mechanic. I need to hear more then a single source, where the game mechanic wasnt a minor point in the game as proof that this has been done effectively and proven to work.

 

[cystemic]

do eeeeeet. this sounds like a great idea to explore and sure enough there would have to be a good narrative to explain the delevel and stripping of powers, e.g your wings get zapped off ergo you cant fly. and for moral choices you could have a set of good moves and a set of bad moves that you have to give up to be more good or bad. eg, in a boss fight you would have to choose between saving an escape pod of innocent people by braving a forest of electric tentacles which would shock your nervous system into feeling more pain and lowering your mana but at the same time giving you the ability to boost some electric powers and weaken metallic or water based powers, OR you could go the bad route by taking your own escape pod and high-tailing it outta there only to get stuck in a meteor shower of fire which burns away your health but lets you boost your fire spells while weakening the water types ... maybe im thinking too far into it

 

[bradleyed]

when i first read this i was thinking about action games. i imagined gameplay evolving. start out with huge armor and tons of health and powerful weapons, just to learn the mechanics of the game throughout the intro. then, gradually lose weapons due to degradation. remove armor due to loss of energy source (battery/magic). the protagonist is now fast enough to destroy opponents with speed and strength (like ninja gaiden maybe) that degrade over time. now a bit slower and weaker, you'd now transition into more reliance on stealth combat (like PoP:two thrones). yada yada yada, eventually you get to being basically solid snake with just a blade or two by the end, also visually grizzled.

i'm thinking about multiple gauges that either run out to level down or fill to level up. movement could lower movement stamina which levels down your speed and sustained run. attacking could drop your strength. time spent playing could lower your perception. kills, defeating enemies without killing them, and events could increase your experience which could allow you to learn more skillful less strenuous versions of the techniques that you already have or less powerful versions of techniques you have previously lost.

though it would take a lot of incite into combat to develop these trees of techniques. and balancing difficulty would be quite difficult if everything were permanently lost. maybe there should be some one-time get a good night's sleep events or meal events as part of the plot to regain some of what was lost in the previous part. that way, the game could keep the player in a somewhat predictable range of starting conditions to keep the difficulty on or near the desired curve.

 

[Ipsen]

A very interesting concept. Perhaps run this system cyclically; have the opportunity to build levels again after a difficult trial at your lowest level.

 

[Wolfenbarg]

That sounds really good actually. Maybe you have a degenerative disease that you are desperately fighting to obtain the cure for. By the end all you've got are your bones and a sword you can barely carry, but it would make the journey that much more satisfying. Maybe you could even reward the player with a final scene after the major difficulty and story point of the final battle has passed where you get all of your powers back to destroy a horde just like you did at level 85 when you started the game. That or it's a total downer where you just die after the final battle, but you did so for a good cause. Instant classic.

 

[sshplur]

Tfarcraw Fo Dlrow

I see what you did there. I thought it was another sex joke at first... >_>

 

[Coop83]

Yahtzee's crazy idea for RPGs that might actually work.

It sounds a lot like Promethian, the Created, from White Wolf - you start off as the "Frankenstein's Monster, or Golem and gradually try to lose all of your super powers, while taking steps to achieve your mortality. I might have to look into playing this game, as I've only witnessed it from afar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promethean:_The_Created

 

[Brandocommando]

Um Yahtzee the reason your bar is cluttered is cuz u didn't download any add ons. Really takes like 5 sec on Curse.com. l2wow

 

[II Scarecrow II]

Ok, I signed up just to post this, so I hope people listen

I personally think this is an interesting idea, and if implemented well, it could make a riveting story-based game. As everyone so far has agreed, it would be difficult to include in an MMO, but a story-based RPG would be the perfect medium. The biggest problem here is that people keep thinking on the lines of other stories, rather than one built around this mechanic/

Think of something like this. You start as a powerful wizard/witch, revered, feared and held in awe around the land. But when a dark force invades the land, wiping out towns and cities, the people call on you to save them. The first few missions have you completely wiping out legions of enemy forces, until you meet the first boss, also a person of magic. On defeating him, you are cursed with a terrible malady that constantly drains your lifeforce.

But it's not your life that is weakened; instead you are forced to heal yourself with magic, something that decreases your powers progressively. This wouldn't happen constantly, and tiny level 1 enemies or sidequests would not affect this. Instead, taking the gated approach, every time the player defeats a pivotal boss, at the cost of great magic, he becomes weaker.

As the game progresses, you would be required to take each engagement differently, making you think tactically and treating some battles like puzzles. Say you need to get a key from the top of a tower. You could either blaze through the tower loaded on health potions and the like, killing everything in your way at great monetary cost, or you could climb up sections of the tower to circumvent whole battles. Or, my favourite part, you use what powers you have an use the environment around you to defeat opponents.

Boss battles would become like puzzles, you using your powers to blow up explosives, or cause objects to fall on them. You could still take the run-and-gun approach, but this approach becomes harder and harder as the game progresses, punishing the player for not evolving with the game.

See, with this mechanic, you would not necessarily select abilities to lose, but instead the abilities you do have become weaker, giving players enough options to prevent the button combos becoming stale. As the final boss fight comes around, it will be almost impossible to fight it conventionally, so instead the player has to do it smart. In my mind, this results in the hero expending too much power, with the effect that curse eventually kills him, a sacrifice made for the people who feared him. In my mind, this would give players a great sense of accomplishment that the last boss WAS hard and they defeated him in the ultimate sacrifice.

So, please, if you're going to knock this idea, then don't do so by saying "But it would suck if such-&-such game implemented it," instead think of an idea built around this concept.



OR if people are wishing it to be implemented in a multiplayer game, think of it in comparison to CoD instead of WoW. Players start out with the most powerful weapons and perks, but as they level up, they are forced to use less powerful weapons and less effective perks. However, good players would still be able to stomp on bad players despite this handicap.

 

[KDR_11k]

Doesn't Fable have you age as you level up? Could just use that, at the end you're an old dude who's so frail all he can do is use his wisdom to order his party around.

AI War had a nice way of making the game harder as you progress: Instead of leveling yourself up the only one who gains "experience" is the enemy. If you run around and smash high value targets all the time you end up with an enemy so powerful it will wipe you out in the blink of an eye. A large part of the game's strategy comes from deciding which moves net you the most gain compared to the AI Progress they generate. Yes, you also gain strength in the form of research points but those are capped at 3000 per system (taking a system generates AI progress). There's a new quest chain at the end of which you become incredibly powerful but as you get closer to it the threat posed by the AI escalates like crazy. And this is a pretty smart AI, it'll smash high value capturables quickly if you show any weakness, making you lose a lot of the strength you have built up.

 

[Brandocommando]

The best players are the ones with the best gear (WoW) you can't buy gear and even if you play forever you wont get the gear. Getting gear means you either have to PvP or Dungeon. Everyone can get some lower level gear through things like honor points (ez to get and can rely on others). But the best players are getting their gear from Heroic Raids and 1800+ arenas that you can't get into unless you know how to play your character. I log in twice a week on WoW and I currently hold a 2350 Arena rating with a friend of mine and have the best PvP gear in the game. Now I play to stomp =D

 

[Manthraxx]

I'm not saying it's cool or anything, but if you had a backwards leveling system in a MMORPG, then you would have A LOT of griefers that would come in, kill the oldies, and the when they get a little weeker, delete the character and start over with the griefing...

Some assholes are just not interested in gameplay-experience or community or anything... they just want to grief... and they will ruin a backwards leveling game

sad but true..

Otherwise a good idea in my book

 

[Admiral Aztec]

I think the whole point in the mowing-down-entire-legions-of-henchmen-before-facing-the-boss approach is that you can feel smug in the face of his threat, and I always imagine my character saying, "We'll see about that, fuckwad, see those bodies down the hall? You're next." I might be approaching it the wrong way, though.

I think leveling up is important for the player to feel they're gaining something for their hard work, but the problem is that when you're level 60, every monster and adversary is level 60, too. The most ridiculous example are quests in WOW where you need to crack open bird eggs in a 60-65 area, and the hatchlings, just emerging (most probably prematurely, seeing as you forced them out of their eggs) from their embryonic state are level 60-65, like they had incredibly intensive combat training in their eggs. Nevertheless I think WOW works great, but in a single-player game there should be the reward of being high level in that you can mow down mobs of foes that you used to fear, yet there should also be threats, that is, new enemies that are the same level (or higher) as you.

As for final bosses, you as the player should be made aware that they have considerable advantage. I liked Darth Malak in KOTOR because he had a very sinister way of gaining the upper hand by healing himself using live bodies to draw their energy into himself. (That's not a euphemism for anal sex, by the way.) It made the impression that he was better prepared than you and made victory all the more sweeter. I think the adversity in boss fights can come from these kinds of things, making you feel that for all your power you have to put a lot of effort to defeating your foe.

All in all, there should be a duality to gaining power. The reward of being able to beat down former "hard" enemies and the reminder of the fact that you're still not uncontestedly the strongest bloke in the universe.

I know this doesn't contribute much to the leveling down concept, I'm just giving my defence for the leveling up concept. Basically you need a very, very strong and immersive story for the leveling down thing to fly. The concept would be great for stoics but us hedonists want more stuff and choices.

 

[spartandude]

it would be an interesting concept for a single player game, but i still dont think it would work for an MMO

 

[LazyAza]

Awesome concept, I wish developers were actually willing to experiment with basic game conventions like this. Some of my favorite parts of games are when I'm completely unempowered because its such a nice change from the usual 'I've got a tonne of guns and endless ammunition, yay killing!'

 

[KrazyKain]

players need rewards not downgrades, if you made them physically weaker but magically more powerful for example, this could work, it would require the player to be more aware of his surroundings then before and have to pick and choose his spells, but if he simply got worse and worse... I reckon the game would become very unrewarding.

 

[Laurie Barnes]

Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw! YOU ARE A GENIUS! And I'm not just saying that because I finished reading "Mogworld" earlier this week. (Though on a slightly deviating note I must mention this book is worth ten times the price I paid for it). The greifer mentality to me has always seemed to be enforced by traditional MMO's and any multi-player RPG. However your idea would flip that on it's head and lend the Greifers to be seen as what they really are, NOOBS who have missed the true depth that the game offers. Why aren't you making video games Yahtzee?

Truly 'tis a disservice to the world that thou doth not.