What if We Leveled Backwards?!
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Ideally, as you are forced to specialize, you would also be forced to improvise and find more creative ways to utilize the skills you have. Most games are designed to reward experimentation - for example, Diablo! It's designed so that a player who is continually trying out new ways of using his skills can eventually find extremely powerful strategies and combinations.MiketheBassMan said:
Also, addressing the point several other people have made, it would not be any more narratively difficult than a traditional RPG. "But why doesn't the super-powered hero go after the bad guy right at first?"
"But why doesn't the super-powered villain go after the hero when he's still a flailing noob?"
Neither are impossible problems; they're about equal in the creativity required to overcome them. Both would be solved by one not knowing where the other is, for example - not a creative solution, but an easy one.
I like this Idea. If it's not made by the time I get to be a game programmer, I'll probably suggest it. It's an interesting concept, and could probably be totally awesome if done right.
It's an interesting idea, but I think you'd have one hell of a time actually getting people to play it. My knee-jerk reaction was "a game where I get weaker as I progress? No thank you." Granted, after I thought about it, the idea got more appealing. But the truth is that most people just go off their first reaction and use that as their basis for overall reaction. While some will take the time to think "hey, that might be cool," most will say "F%&# that."
I always thought a good idea might be progressive challenges. I know that in most tabletop rpg's, the hallmark of the concept is that challenges escalate based on the party's strength level, assuming the game master knows what he's doing. And in several, the escalation is actually exponential, where a level 20 opponent is not 20x as strong as a level 1, but rather somewhere around 50 to 75x as strong. Scaling opponent strengths (similar to oblivion, but actually thought out and comprehensive) would create more challenge, I think, and still give the sense of accomplishment via leveling.
But, then...you are talking about an MMO, in general, so my concept is automatically thrown out. They thrive on static challenges.
I always thought a good idea might be progressive challenges. I know that in most tabletop rpg's, the hallmark of the concept is that challenges escalate based on the party's strength level, assuming the game master knows what he's doing. And in several, the escalation is actually exponential, where a level 20 opponent is not 20x as strong as a level 1, but rather somewhere around 50 to 75x as strong. Scaling opponent strengths (similar to oblivion, but actually thought out and comprehensive) would create more challenge, I think, and still give the sense of accomplishment via leveling.
But, then...you are talking about an MMO, in general, so my concept is automatically thrown out. They thrive on static challenges.
hm, I think it could work. for one game, and singleplayer.
one of the points of an online game is to test your gaming skills against real people. but doing this by comparing how weak you are (and not by how strong you are) seems kinda weird. I guess it would discourage many players to move on in the game. The only thing you have by the time you finish the game will be a weak character and the knowledge that you beat the game.
why not make it that way: you start the game with all skills available. And with every level you gain (or lose, if you want it this way), you can choose to erase one of the skills. By erasing one skill, the other skills and/or your stats get stronger! By the end of leveling up (or down), your character will be either a specialist in few disciplines who can easily be defeated because he is not prepared for every situation, or a relatively weak guy who has in exchange for being weak so many skills that he is prepared for almost everything.
Or...the game just automatically erases skills you don't use. Because if you don't practice learned things, you forget them and stuff.
one of the points of an online game is to test your gaming skills against real people. but doing this by comparing how weak you are (and not by how strong you are) seems kinda weird. I guess it would discourage many players to move on in the game. The only thing you have by the time you finish the game will be a weak character and the knowledge that you beat the game.
why not make it that way: you start the game with all skills available. And with every level you gain (or lose, if you want it this way), you can choose to erase one of the skills. By erasing one skill, the other skills and/or your stats get stronger! By the end of leveling up (or down), your character will be either a specialist in few disciplines who can easily be defeated because he is not prepared for every situation, or a relatively weak guy who has in exchange for being weak so many skills that he is prepared for almost everything.
Or...the game just automatically erases skills you don't use. Because if you don't practice learned things, you forget them and stuff.
I don't think this would work too well in a MMO (of any genre) very well, unless it was very carefully balanced, it would be too easy for greifers to just keep making new characters and keep on greifing.
Where I think this would shine is in story based RPG and strategy games.
I love the idea of having to give up abilities as you progress through the game or as a variant, when you get hurt, take damage, generally make mistakes then you lose abilities or strength. So you could play a perfect game and be as strong as you are at the start, this wouldn't work where the strong/weak poles are quite extreme.
The other way to apply this is in strategy games like Fire Emblem or (Warhammer 40k) Chaos Gate where when your team members die, they're dead, no going back. I can see this playing out where you start off with an army and as people die (as a part of the story) your army becomes a squad of close knit members that start having to perform guerrilla warfare to survive and achieve your goals.
Where I think this would shine is in story based RPG and strategy games.
I love the idea of having to give up abilities as you progress through the game or as a variant, when you get hurt, take damage, generally make mistakes then you lose abilities or strength. So you could play a perfect game and be as strong as you are at the start, this wouldn't work where the strong/weak poles are quite extreme.
The other way to apply this is in strategy games like Fire Emblem or (Warhammer 40k) Chaos Gate where when your team members die, they're dead, no going back. I can see this playing out where you start off with an army and as people die (as a part of the story) your army becomes a squad of close knit members that start having to perform guerrilla warfare to survive and achieve your goals.
I've been turning this one over in my head for a while now - mostly as a way to make horror games get scarier as you go, rather than turning enemies into fodder. You could start off trampling all and sundry and get progressively sicker and more injured until even minor enemies are a massive threat.
EDIT: Games like Left 4 Dead actually manage this rather well, as you become more injured, slower, etc.
EDIT: Games like Left 4 Dead actually manage this rather well, as you become more injured, slower, etc.
It's brilliant, especally if you add a Don Quixote twist to the end where the world is well, the hero is physically and mentally recovers but is emotionally destoryed as a result of the quest.
Would be cool to start at godlike status with superpowers but slowly lose those over the course of the game, and instead relying more and more on some amazing physical fighting skills. So, for example, at the start you can snap your fingers and engulf an army of foes in flames, but by the end of the game you gotta go kung fu on their asses which obviously would make it a LOT tougher.
I can see both sides of the issue here, but the concept of the reverse-RPG-system probably would only work for one or two games as an experiment, not as a long-lived concept. In fact, I think it would work incredibly well in an RPG about the life of Merlin the wizard from the Arthurian legends. The concept of Merlin was that he lived his life backwards, his memories beginning as an old man; the last time his friends saw him he was like a stranger, but when they first met him he greeted them as old friends. In game form, a reverse-level-system would work perfectly for this concept.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster for an MMO. The problem is that you would either have to start reversing the effect at end game or it would suck. I mean you down magmaw one week but due to losing your leg the next boss is too hard for you. When your raid lockout runs out, cause if it doesn't the content is going to get old faster then ever, you try to fight magmaw again. saddly, your lack of that leg means you lose. and if you do win you get to have, NOT ONE BUT TWO! missing legs. You see the problem
ALso, when you hit 60 it might seem like you get each and everyone of your spells but I have tried PTR realms, IE being given a top level toon of any class, and it is confusing as hell to skip earning each of those level. You learn you your class works a little more each level until you think you have it mastered at 85, only to learn you suck at it and have to learn some more in dungeons, then heroic dungeons, then finally you learn that raiding is HARD.
ALso, when you hit 60 it might seem like you get each and everyone of your spells but I have tried PTR realms, IE being given a top level toon of any class, and it is confusing as hell to skip earning each of those level. You learn you your class works a little more each level until you think you have it mastered at 85, only to learn you suck at it and have to learn some more in dungeons, then heroic dungeons, then finally you learn that raiding is HARD.
Commenting on a Yahtzee article sometimes makes me feel like a raindrop falling on the ocean, but I just have to express what an excellent idea this is. I'm a sucker for heartbreak in entertainment, from Whedon television series to games like Planescape. I want to feel for my characters and then have them hurt - or, better yet, choose to be hurt for the greater good. Yahtzee's proposal makes that story arc part of a game's mechanics - I want a game like this right now. Please?
"Spawn" attempted something like this. Not exactly, but you had a limited power reserve that you couldn't replenish and you used it to heal yourself among other things. All it resulted in were people becoming bitter at the challenge in the game and never picking it up again as a novice player couldn't get through 25% of the game without using all of it.
Might work as a quirky concept for a mini-title, like Recettear - taking place from the perspective of an item shop owner in an RPG.
Didn't you say, however, that Elder Scrolls IV stayed pretty challenging throughout...? I certainly remember that being the case when I played. Also, look to Dragon Age as an example of maintaining challenge throughout. Irrespective of your level or which dungeons you aim for (the forest, the mage tower, the dwarf city), the monsters level with you. Levelling here is only to open up new spells.
Don't forget Yahtz, variety is the spice of life.
Didn't you say, however, that Elder Scrolls IV stayed pretty challenging throughout...? I certainly remember that being the case when I played. Also, look to Dragon Age as an example of maintaining challenge throughout. Irrespective of your level or which dungeons you aim for (the forest, the mage tower, the dwarf city), the monsters level with you. Levelling here is only to open up new spells.
Don't forget Yahtz, variety is the spice of life.
I really like this idea. In a multiplayer game this means that the experienced players would rely on skill to overcome less experienced but potentially more powerful players, a self correcting balancing act. To reach level one the player must know every acting and button and execute his moves flawlessly. This to me says that willpower/wisdom, charisma, and dexterity style stats go up while intelligence, constitution, and strength decline, intelligence likely just tapering off. Loss of all but a few skills means that the player must have the foresight to plan their encounters and keep them short. New players would have the stamina to fight a long time, unlike their older counterparts.
Works better in single player as one goes from young adventurer to old wiseman, dangerous not for their strength but for their knowledge.
Works better in single player as one goes from young adventurer to old wiseman, dangerous not for their strength but for their knowledge.
The idea I had from reading this was youre some super strong sorcerer or whatever, and you get cursed in some way that slowly strips you of your powers, or sends just your body back in time (to explain, the body's age reverses, so its less capable of holding all his powers) and as you get weaker, i suppose you could pick which powers you have to sacrifice so you get left with the ones youre used to or are just too awesome to let go of.
So basically by the end of the game, you'd have a very small amount of spells, maybe some leveled up over the course of the game with some level up system, and maybe a huge AoE or 2 to back you up when you need it, or even just a couple AoE's to spam.
The enemies would have to get weaker too, just slower than the main guy so theres still a bit of challenge. And we all know in a gaming universe, a super strong guy is very well known, so i guess the game could either follow him trying to just disappear as a normal person in the world, meaning as he got weaker he would go to places that are less hostile, but it wouldnt work too well if he planned on getting his powers back cause that would mean going for something really rare to restore his powers and those are never easy to get, especially for weak pieces of crap....
But it could work.
So basically by the end of the game, you'd have a very small amount of spells, maybe some leveled up over the course of the game with some level up system, and maybe a huge AoE or 2 to back you up when you need it, or even just a couple AoE's to spam.
The enemies would have to get weaker too, just slower than the main guy so theres still a bit of challenge. And we all know in a gaming universe, a super strong guy is very well known, so i guess the game could either follow him trying to just disappear as a normal person in the world, meaning as he got weaker he would go to places that are less hostile, but it wouldnt work too well if he planned on getting his powers back cause that would mean going for something really rare to restore his powers and those are never easy to get, especially for weak pieces of crap....
But it could work.
It's an interesting idea. Nearly impossible to pitch, but if you posted it independently on a free game site like Armor Games, got a good story and ironed out the bugs, there's a chance it'd work.