What is being homophobic?

[hazabaza1]

People seem unable to differentiate "homophobic" and "being a ****."
You? Sure, you might be a bit homophobic. Get grossed out by it? Understandable, but you're letting them do what they want.

Now, if you interrupted their flirting/holding hands/kissing/whatever session and started having a go because you don't want to see it any they're wrong for doing so, that's being a ****.
You don't seem like a **** to me, OP.

 

[101flyboy]

Translation: I don't really accept homosexuality, but I can handle it and tolerate it, as long as it's not around me.

The people who I've found find homosexuality off-putting and are truly straight allies, or accepting, realize they have a problem and try to fix it or naturally do so because they are immersed in a culture where they see it regularly. Or they just learn to internalize their discomfort and get over it. They don't make excuses for something that's not excusable.

How is that not accepting it? I accept gays can be gay as much as they want. I don't accept it as something visually pleasing, that's for sure. But I am convinced that accepting the concept as a whole is not equal to accepting certain visual aspects of it.

And fixing it? I don't really see how you can change your tastes consciously.

You tolerate homosexuality. I'm just going by what you said not in regards to your irrational disgust of same-sex kissing, but you say "I don't care about gay people. Live and let live." That's effectively saying, I'll do my thing, and they'll do THEIR thing. And as long as I don't have to do their thing or be around it, then it's fine. I mean, saying you accept gays being gay is redundant because gay people are gay whether you accept they being gay or not. You're saying you accept THE FACT people are gay. Do you accept gayness? Do you accept homosexuality as natural and normal? Being truly gay accepting is more than "people are gay and I accept that."

I'm not trying to nit-pick but it's something to think about.

You can fix your biases because your biases aren't immutable. Given the fact A LOT people, have, in fact, fixed their biases against homosexuality. It's not a taste situation, it's a bias. Preferring one thing over the other is one thing, outright rejecting the thing you don't prefer as disgusting is bias. I'm not a doctor but I know exposure is a common cure to this type of reflexive action.

 

[101flyboy]

Cory Booker: "Pointing the finger at gays"
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/01/09/cory-booker-pointing-the-finger-at-gays/

I was in my tolerance stage or the ?I don?t give a damn if someone is gay, just as long as they don?t bother me? stage. I was well trained in my tolerance. I stopped telling my gay jokes. Fags, flamers and dykes became homosexuals and people of differing sexual orientation and, of course, I had my gay friend.

Yet, while I was highly adroit at maintaining an air of acceptance, I couldn?t betray my feelings. I was disgusted by gays. The thought of two men kissing each other was about as appealing as a frontal lobotomy.
Allow me to be more direct, escaping the euphemisms of my past ? I hated gays. The disgust and latent hostility I felt toward gays were subcategories of hatred, plain and simple.

While hate is a four-letter word I never would have admitted to, the sentiment clandestinely pervaded my every interaction with homosexuals. I sheepishly shook hands with gays or completely shied away from physical contact. I still remember how my brow would often unconsciously furrow when I was with gays as thoughts would flash in my mind, ?What sinners I am amongst? or ?How unnatural these people are.?

It takes too much energy to hate. Daniel Bao showed me that. He was our gay counselor at The Bridge when I was a freshman. A beautiful man whose eloquent and poignant truths began to move me past tolerance.

I still remember our first real conversation about homosexuality. I had no intention of listening to him; I only sought to argue and debate. Daniel, however, quickly disarmed me with his personal testimony.

Oh, if only I could recount to you the entire conversation. He told me of people who religiously prayed to God to help them become straight. He told me of the years of denial and the pain of always feeling different.

And he told me of the violence ? violence from strangers and family, horrible images of beatings, destruction of property and the daily verbal condemnations.

It was chilling to find that so much of the testimony he shared with me was almost identical to stories my grandparents told me about growing up Black. People found it revolting to share a meal with them and often felt it to be their duty to beat them so that they would learn proper living.

Well, it didn?t take me long to realize that the root of my hatred did not lie with gays but with myself. It was my problem. A problem I dealt with by ceasing to tolerate gays and instead seeking to embrace them.

In these efforts I have found another community with which I feel akin and from which I draw strength. The gay people with whom I am close are some of the strongest, most passionate and caring people I know and their demands for justice are no less imperative than those of any other community.

I sometimes pray for the patience that Daniel so artfully maintained with me when I fired questions and condemnations at him ? because, in recent years, I have grown increasingly angry at the hypocrisy that surrounds me.

In my columns I have never sought to preach self-righteous psycho-babble ? but the temptation here is almost overwhelming. I have seen too many of my male friends ? no matter whether they?re on the football field or inside a church ? bash gays and then revel in their machismo or piety.

But again, I will never point a finger when the finger is best pointed at me. Alas, occasionally I still find myself acting defensive if someone thinks I am gay or sometimes I remain silent when others slam and slander. These realizations hurt me deeply. I must continue to struggle for personal justice. This is my most important endeavor.

 

[101flyboy]

On a side note, I wish people would fucking realize tolerating something does not mean embracing it.

That's a good point. Tolerance is fake, though. What you said wasn't tolerant. You're disgusted at human beings. You turn your head when they so much as show basic affection. That isn't tolerance. Most people who believe they're being tolerant are really just somewhat hiding the fact they're no different than those who are more openly bigoted.

 

[101flyboy]

People need to look at that article above from Cory Booker and then ask themselves if their biases are at all reasonable or rational. Honestly, it's for your own good, because your disgust and dislike of "gay" is going to hurt you in the end. Gay people are going to be gay regardless. But you're going to miss out on potential friends and awesome opportunities in life in terms of social gatherings and events, all because you can't get over the fact some men like men.

 

[generals3]

You tolerate homosexuality. I'm just going by what you said not in regards to your irrational disgust of same-sex kissing, but you say "I don't care about gay people. Live and let live." That's effectively saying, I'll do my thing, and they'll do THEIR thing. And as long as I don't have to do their thing or be around it, then it's fine. I mean, saying you accept gays being gay is redundant because gay people are gay whether you accept they being gay or not. You're saying you accept THE FACT people are gay. Do you accept gayness? Do you accept homosexuality as natural and normal? Being truly gay accepting is more than "people are gay and I accept that."

I'm not trying to nit-pick but it's something to think about.

You can fix your biases because your biases aren't immutable. Given the fact A LOT people, have, in fact, fixed their biases against homosexuality. It's not a taste situation, it's a bias. Preferring one thing over the other is one thing, outright rejecting the thing you don't prefer as disgusting is bias. I'm not a doctor but I know exposure is a common cure to this type of reflexive action.

Well i think that letting people doing their thing is accepting their choice. I mean I once didn't accept the choice of Girlfriend a friend made and I can assure you i made it quite clear by clearly stating how wrong he was to go out with her. This is not something i would de-facto do with gay people (unless the case is similar and one guy who's a friend is going out with an other guy who i consider to be a douche), i won't go tell them how wrong it is to go out with each other. I accept their relationship/orientation and I think that if that is what makes them happy they are totally right in doing it.

I would also like to note that whether i consider it natural or not is irrelevant. I will admit it to you, I don't. But that is because of my black and white view on what is "natural" when it comes to sexual orientation. If it is normal/natural it means that the species can survive if everyone had that sexual orientation (I don't believe nature intended humanity to go extinct after 1 generation), which obviously doesn't work with homosexuality. However this is irrelevant to the aspect of considering something unpleasant to watch or not. I don't find it pleasant to see two ugly straight persons make out either yet i consider it "natural".

And how is it not a taste situation? I can see the bias part considering i never frenched a dude but it's tightly linked to taste if you ask me. As a straight person my taste goes to women, I've never felt attracted to a guy nor felt the desire to do anything sexual with one. And to continue with the ugly straights comparison. I've seen many ugly women, seen many kiss, but i still find it extremely visually unpleasing to see them french someone. So I doubt "exposure" would really matter.

 

[101flyboy]

Call it what you want, I don't expect homosexuals to make any sacrifices in their freedom for me. I don't want them to. Is that enough for you? No? Tough luck.

It's enough for me, I couldn't care less, because I see you as wrong. So you finding homosexuality wrong or gross more or less puts you in the ignorant/foolish category, and I move on, if you gave me a dirty look if I'm holding hands with a guy, I'd probably mock you. For others, you're likely going to get called out on your intolerance. It is what it is. It's 2013. Times have changed.

They aren't? Well, that is interesting. Good to know I voted for the NPD to protect traditional marriage.

What's traditional marriage? Certainly not marriages in modern times. What are you protecting this traditional marriage from, homosexuality?

Projective disgust, boys and girls, in a nutshell. The mentality that heterosexuality is pure and normal, and homosexuality is dirty and contaminates.

For a second I thought I voted for another, not interested in protecting it. But hey, since I'm no different from those bigots...

You're not any different than them. Intolerance is intolerance. You're intolerant. You're not extreme, but not being an extreme bigot doesn't earn medals.

Oh, sorry, I suppose you mean on a deeper, emotional level, one that doesn't really matter in this specific case? One that does not dictate my actions?

I meant exactly what I said. You are not tolerant and you openly express your dislike of homosexuality, both in action and in the voting booth. That isn't tolerance. Solely allowing gay people to be gay doesn't qualify as tolerance. Gay people are gay and your approval is unnecessary to that.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

If you found black people disgusting youd be subconsciously racist. If you find gay people being gay disgusting on a level you DONT find heterosexual displays of affection of the same strength you are being homophobic.

But lets be honest that word comes in different strengths. Some homophobia is perfectly harmless. Some is very harmful.

I can imagine the mindset of someone who hasnt encountered homosexuality before. It SHATTERS a social taboo in that persons mind. Thats scary. And unsettling. And as such they might be a little uncomfortable or scared. But they know inside its not REALLY wrong in any objective sense or in fact any sense at all as it doesnt harm anyone. They refuse to give into their feelings and treat anyone differently. That person is slightly homophobic but still a good person. I think the word "Homophobic" has become synonymous with "Second coming of hitler" when thats not always the case. If you understand inside that these people are equal and free to behave as they want and you dont look "down" on them in a meaningful way youre not a bad person. I cant shame someone for an innate feeling they get when something breaks down a social taboo if you realise they are totally arbitrary social taboos.

People seem unable to differentiate "homophobic" and "being a ****."
You? Sure, you might be a bit homophobic. Get grossed out by it? Understandable, but you're letting them do what they want.

Now, if you interrupted their flirting/holding hands/kissing/whatever session and started having a go because you don't want to see it any they're wrong for doing so, that's being a ****.
You don't seem like a **** to me, OP.

This is lovely.

I have a question though to help you overcome these feelings if you wish. Do you become uncomfortable, or have you even thought about, homosexual love? Not physical love. Deep emotional love.

Its actually a quote from Hazas avatar, my favourite person, Stephen Fry. Enjoy:

The concept that really gets the goat of the gay-hater, the idea that really spins their melon and sickens their stomachs is that most terrible and terrifying of all human notions, love.
That one can love another of the same gender, that is what the homophobe really cannot stand. Love in all eight tones and all five semitones of the world's full octave.
Love as Agape, Eros and Philos; love as infatuation, obsession and lust; love as torture, euphoria, ecstasy and oblivion (this is beginning to read like a Calvin Klein perfume catalogue); love as need, passion and desire.?

 

[101flyboy]

Well i think that letting people doing their thing is accepting their choice. I mean I once didn't accept the choice of Girlfriend a friend made and I can assure you i made it quite clear by clearly stating how wrong he was to go out with her. This is not something i would de-facto do with gay people (unless the case is similar and one guy who's a friend is going out with an other guy who i consider to be a douche), i won't go tell them how wrong it is to go out with each other. I accept their relationship/orientation and I think that if that is what makes them happy they are totally right in doing it.

"Letting people" be gay is not accepting it. First of all, being gay is not a choice. Secondly, gay people are human beings. It's not an arbitrary act. So saying "gay people are gay and I accept that fact", it's like, tell us something we didn't know.

However you have explained yourself better and yeah, you seem a less against than you did before. And that's good. What you explained is more what acceptance is. Accepting a persons' orientation as natural, their relationships as healthy, their love the same way you would with your straight friends. Accepting their orientation as OK. Supporting them when they're in need, being there for them. Simply not saying anything bad when your two gay friends kiss isn't acceptance. I was just making the point that many people call themselves "accepting" when they're really "tolerant".

I would also like to note that whether i consider it natural or not is irrelevant. I will admit it to you, I don't. But that is because of my black and white view on what is "natural" when it comes to sexual orientation. If it is normal/natural it means that the species can survive if everyone had that sexual orientation (I don't believe nature intended humanity to go extinct after 1 generation), which obviously doesn't work with homosexuality. However this is irrelevant to the aspect of considering something unpleasant to watch or not. I don't find it pleasant to see two ugly straight persons make out either yet i consider it "natural".

But you don't find it pleasant because they're unattractive. And that's actually, you know, something qualifiable, to a certain extent. It's at least something you have a reason for. You can at least back that up with reason. Can you do so with same-sex couples? No you cannot. You're saying, they are a same-sex couple, thus unnatural, thus gross, thus effectively wrong. That's an abstract way of thinking, not something solid like "they're ugly", something you can point out and see. So although you're not a bigot and I don't wish to have you think I believe you are, you're not truly accepting. You still ultimately have the "I accept the fact you're gay, but not your gayness" mentality. You're happy they're happy, if it makes them happy, live and let live, as you said before. That's still not acceptance. It's conditional acceptance at the most.

But then again..............it's good enough. I'm not going to force you to go the extra mile. It's good enough because you're not impeding on our lives. You respect our lives. That's a good thing. Respect given, respect you get. So that's sort of how I see it. It's good enough but not ideal.

And how is it not a taste situation? I can see the bias part considering i never frenched a dude but it's tightly linked to taste if you ask me. As a straight person my taste goes to women, I've never felt attracted to a guy nor felt the desire to do anything sexual with one. And to continue with the ugly straights comparison. I've seen many ugly women, seen many kiss, but i still find it extremely visually unpleasing to see them french someone.

Gay isn't a sexual preference, it's an immutable orientation, hence it's not about taste. Taste indicates preference. Few choose to be gay. Few choose to be straight. It's an attraction, you're ATTRACTION is towards women. Then you have taste regarding what women you're interested in. That's taste, not liking to see two unattractive people kiss is a taste thing. Not "homosexuality is unnatural and not normal and I find 2 guys kissing disgusting." That's not taste. That's a train of thought. Based on essentially nothing. That's why it's homophobia, and why homophobia is classified as irrational.

 

[Xan Krieger]

Here's my question: Is harmless homophobia alright? I don't like when two guys kiss either but I'm not going to do anything about it other than look away. I'm not hurting them or impeding them in any way and I'd happily talk to them when they're not kissing. I have the same problem when straight people kiss. I guess it's because I'm anti-love.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Here's my question: Is harmless homophobia alright? I don't like when two guys kiss either but I'm not going to do anything about it other than look away. I'm not hurting them or impeding them in any way and I'd happily talk to them when they're not kissing. I have the same problem when straight people kiss. I guess it's because I'm anti-love.

I'd say it's fine. You don't have to change who you are if you are not doing anything wrong.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

As flyboy mentioned ANY kind of irrational aversion towards PEOPLE aimed at gender, race or sexual orientation is not "alright". It has never been "alright", you don't get medals for "doing nothing about it" first of all because there's nothing to be "done about it" and if you think that NOT showing any aggression is worth any kind of applause you are horribly deluded. *Toleration* in general is VERY condescending and holier-than-thou attitude, because it implies that you LET them be whatever they are and that's sickening. At the end of the day you think you are "liberal" and "good" for tolerating gay people when that shouldn't have mattered in the first place for you to feel "transcendent".

Acceptance is a mark of the mature mind, something most people apparently don't possess. How ironic, since we are born with no inherent revulsion to anything not deemed dangerous by our instincts. It is your own personal insecurities that cause your disgust towards male homosexuality drilled into your skull by other insecure people we call "society". All in all if you don't go harming people for petty prejudices then that's enough for them, the only problem left is the problem you have with yourself. If you think you are happy while having any kind of disgust for basic affection then all the power to you.

 

[Reaper195]

Okay firstly let me clear up where I'm coming from, I'm your typical heterosexual male aged in his 20's. And I have a dilemma - you see, I absolutely love the sight of two women kissing or getting it on. It's rather arousing, if not simply plain damn sexy as hell.
But the sight of two GUYS kissing makes my brain have a fucking seizure. I can't help it.

I don't consider that homophobic. Women are generally damn good to look at. Two women making out is damn good to look at. I do not find men good to look at at all, even if they are making out with a total 9/10. So two dudes making out is...well...just as bad.

Personally, I've always been the belief that being homophobic is being negative in any way towards two homos (Fuck you, it's just short for homosexual. It's not a goddamn negative slur). Such as "I don't like those guys making out because they are gay." But saying "I don't like watching two guys making out because I'm straight." is not homophobic. You don't have anything against them for being gay, you just don't find them sexually appealing at all, since they are of the same gender.

I have no problem with gay people. But I like looking at women. So if two chicks want to make out in front of me, I'm all kinds of down with that. But because I'm not attracted to the male species, I'd much rather go and play GTA than watch two guys making out. If I'm in a room where two dudes are making out (I.E. if I were to live with a gay couple), I'd be as comfortable with it as I would a straight couple making out. Just...keep it quiet. Lesbians on the other hand....out comes the video camera. Because win!

 

[Abomination]

I find two dudes kissing as appealing as myself kissing one in a romantic manner. I find sexual acts towards another male as appealing as swallowing snails. There's nothing WRONG with it, but I would not find it pleasant or to my tastes.

I am not going to try and stop someone else from swallowing snails but I don't want to watch them do it.

This is not homophobia. This is simply a matter of personal taste. Just as much as someone could find anal sex disgusting or elderly sex disgusting they can find homosexual sex/PDA disgusting.

You can dislike flamboyance without being homophobic.

I find two males having a snog unappealing because there's no female element to it, as that is where the sexuality in the interaction is appealing for me. I am empathize with the male taking part as their partner is what they would be experiencing. If there are two males involved I can't help but think "how does that feel?" and be repulsed.

 

[saintdane05]

It's the fear of men treating you the way you treat women.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Being homophobic is discriminating against gays. If you would condone lesbians making public displays of affection but not allow males the same priviledges, that's sexist. You're in the clear.

Actually though I don't think the word itself is exactly helping the issue. It's not the fear of homosexuals, it's the hatred of them.

 

[burningdragoon]

If you want go all technical, it's just an irrational fear of homosexuality.

Being "disgusted" is probably not a good thing, but finding two people of your non-preferred sex performing sexual acts being unappealing is called having a sexuality.

I tend to get annoyed by anyone engaging in loosely sexual/intimate activities near me, because it interfere's with my total disinterest in other people's sex lives. That hardly makes me a bigot.

 

[101flyboy]

There is a huge difference between "not appealing" and "disgusting".

I don't find two girls kissing appealing. I'm not disgusted by it. I just don't want to do it. If I see it, I see it. I don't look for it nor avoid it. Going OUT OF YOUR WAY to avoid even basic same-sex affection is homophobia. Disgust is a moral condemnation. And most of you have more or less explained exactly what projective disgust entails without realizing it. You also come off as guys who lack much experience with openly gay people and gay culture.