What is being homophobic?

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Jenvas1306

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maninahat said:
People have natural, instinctive reactions to certain situations, and some of them are unpleasant or negative. As long as they don't make important decisions off of the back of such behaviour or treat their disgust as universal/valid, keeping it to themselves, I don't see a problem.
well, I would say that disgust is mostly a learned reaction and not necessarily a natural one, especially in this case.
Natural disgust is probably more about the smell of food that has gone bad or feces, things that could make us sick. I highly doubt that being disgusted by the sight of display of affection between individuals of the same gender would ever increase chances of survival.

For me there isnt much difference if its a gay, lesbian or hetero couple who is kissing or what else, but I'm certainly also not especially attracted to watching either of them.
 

TJC

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someonehairy-ish said:
101flyboy said:
thejackyl said:
There are several degrees of homophobia, honestly.
I respect your honesty and I'm sorry whatever occurred in your childhood has left scars. I disagree, though, with you more or less saying low level/moderate homophobia is acceptable. It is not acceptable whatsoever. It's unhealthy, to the homophobe, to homosexual persons, and to society. Very unhealthy. We should all strive to better ourselves in the end and that means working at admitting to yourself you have internalized issues you need to deal with.
You do realise that you're coming off as more of a bigot than the supposedly homophobic people you're spouting about? They're made uncomfortable by gay acts of affection, but they are perfectly willing and happy to ignore that minor feeling of discomfort for the sake of the homosexual people involved. That seems reasonable to me.

Whereas what you're saying is that these people ought to change what is essentially, to them, a gut reaction. Whether that reaction is caused by an innate psychological aversion or societal indoctrination, it is still going to be really fucking difficult to get rid of it completely. And you're saying they should do that anyway, giving absolutely no reason why? "It's unhealthy" does not qualify as a reason because there is no backup whatsoever to that claim.

You would do well to accept something closer to this philosophy:

Samantha Burt said:
Xan Krieger said:
Here's my question: Is harmless homophobia alright?
Of course. Harmless homophobia is, tautologically, harmless. If something hurts no-one, but helps a person find happiness/comfort, then there is nothing wrong with it. Someone finding me and my fiancée to be an unsettling concept has as much right to that feeling as we have to be in love. I'm not going to stop them if they don't stop me; live and let live, etc. :)

Otherwise you're just causing a problem for other people. You're being intolerant, in other words. Tolerance does not mean being a blank slate with absolutely no preferences or aversions. In an ideal world, yes, we'd aim for something like this, but the fact of the matter is that human beings do not work like that. So what tolerance means, in the real world, is letting other people do what they want to do in spite of whatever preferences or aversions you might have.
No... no no no no no
Tolerance does NOT mean tolerating the intolerance of others. Never has, never should be and only bigots try to hide their spiteful feelings behind demands of tolerance from other people. My parents are bigots. They claim that they'll support my choice of partner no matter what but "y'know it would be nice if you didn't bring a black girl because... well just because." Sure, they'd never ACT upon that racism. They'd never actively try to beat down black people, or use their non-existent influence to make lives for black people harder. So it's perfectly "harmless" racism. Does that make it right? Hell no and I call them out on that bullshit every single time. Same thing for misogyny, same thing for homophobia. You don't get brownie points for not being a total asshole towards certain groups.

No matter how you try to justify it (it's my opinion, I'm hurting no one, you have to tolerate me) bigotry is bigotry, even if it's silent. Flyboy has done nothing but calling everyone out on that (very nifty debating skills by the way, kudos). He's not denying you your opinion, he's not stopping you from saying anything, he's just pointing out that irrational feelings of disgust because of internal projection are kinda dick moves.

You're right with one thing, though. Human are never completely unbiased. Probably never will be. That doesn't, however, excuse anything. If the civil rights movement taught us anything, society as a whole can change. It takes time and it might seem like we'll never ever get there but just because the situation is shitty right now, that shouldn't stop us from striving for an ideal. Nothing stifles positive change more than "eh, no one's getting hurt so why bother?" from a large amount of people.
 

101flyboy

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someonehairy-ish said:
You do realise that you're coming off as more of a bigot than the supposedly homophobic people you're spouting about? They're made uncomfortable by gay acts of affection, but they are perfectly willing and happy to ignore that minor feeling of discomfort for the sake of the homosexual people involved. That seems reasonable to me.
It is reasonable. I never said it wasn't. Homophobia in general isn't an issue until it's made one so as long as a person doesn't make it one, it's not a concern. However, the words "uncomfortable" have not been used. The words used have been unnatural and disgusting. Finding affection between same-sex couples uncomfortable, while irrational in itself, is generally something a person can work through. The way to stop being discomforted is by becoming comfortable. It takes time but the person is making an effort.

Calling same-sex affection, and homosexuality in general, disgusting and unnatural? No. It is not bigoted to call that bullshit out. Some things are right and some things are wrong. That is wrong.

Whereas what you're saying is that these people ought to change what is essentially, to them, a gut reaction. Whether that reaction is caused by an innate psychological aversion or societal indoctrination, it is still going to be really fucking difficult to get rid of it completely.
It's honestly, legitimately, not as difficult as people think it is. It's not *that* difficult because it's happening every day in the world around us. People becoming increasingly comfortable with homosexuality. Why? Because they OPENED their minds.

That's the point I've been making. You shouldn't want to feel discomfort around friends because their love lives or they showing affection with mates makes you squeamish. No-one should want that. This isn't a two-way street type deal. It's understandable to be uncomfortable with homosexuality given we all have grown up in a homophobic world, but it's not a right way of thinking, either, it's harmful to the person who feels that way.


And you're saying they should do that anyway, giving absolutely no reason why? "It's unhealthy" does not qualify as a reason because there is no backup whatsoever to that claim.
So it's not unhealthy to more or less dread your friends/family showing affection towards their mate because they're same-sex oriented? It's not at all a problem that basic same-sex affection, which is increasingly common in the USA at least, causes you to avert your eyes and borderline panic? That's a rational response? No.


Otherwise you're just causing a problem for other people. You're being intolerant, in other words. Tolerance does not mean being a blank slate with absolutely no preferences or aversions. In an ideal world, yes, we'd aim for something like this, but the fact of the matter is that human beings do not work like that. So what tolerance means, in the real world, is letting other people do what they want to do in spite of whatever preferences or aversions you might have.
That's respect. Not tolerance. Not hitting a man or not throwing up on them when you see them kissing a guy (I know, extreme examples, just making a point) is NOT an accomplishment, so that needs to be made clear. It is NOT a cause for celebration, and it is NOT anything to be proud of, because the underlying issue still exists.

Bad behaviors are bad behaviors. You can respect the fact people have their views yet not in any way think it's OK for them to have those views. Ignorance, insecurity, isn't good, and there is no point in calling it good.

The point is, if you are respectful, and you don't make your problems my problem, then everything is fine, and that's what has been said throughout the thread. But clearly, that isn't happening, hence there is a problem. When you have posters saying "I can't help but look away or give a dirty look" or "It's unnatural" or "I voted for traditional marriage", then you know that this is much more about a true dislike of homosexuality than anything else. Not for everyone, but several here. And unless you call it out, and challenge it, the cycle continues.

If a person made a "I find heterosexual kissing disgusting" thread, what would the responses be? Oh yeah, threads like this are barely ever made. Let's call it what it is. And I by no means am attacking you, but let's stop being dense.
 

101flyboy

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It can easily be said this thread is intolerant. So why are we talking about tolerance? This thread began with someone saying he finds male homosexuality gross and fetishizes female-female intercourse. So homophobia and some subtle misogyny, quite frankly. If you want to promote "tolerance", then why do we have threads like this stating homosexuality is gross? Or people calling homosexuality disgusting and unnatural? Then saying "I'm tolerant............I have gay friends." Even when SEVERAL straight MEN have said it does not matter to them who kisses who.

Can we drop the excuse making and blame game and take responsibility? I'll do it, you do it, we all need to do it. Don't run to the excuse locker to justify yourself; that does nothing but expose you.
 

Jenvas1306

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Aglynugga said:
You are so smart I bet you believe everythign you say is true wait probably not you probably think some crazy stuff about people I bet alot of what you think about other people is the stuff in your head leaking out into the world you might not want that to happen because then you look crazy.
Isnt a discussion automatically lost of you get personal? Ad Hominem, is the latin term, if I recall correctly.
 

generals3

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101flyboy said:
But you don't find it pleasant because they're unattractive. And that's actually, you know, something qualifiable, to a certain extent. It's at least something you have a reason for. You can at least back that up with reason. Can you do so with same-sex couples? No you cannot. You're saying, they are a same-sex couple, thus unnatural, thus gross, thus effectively wrong. That's an abstract way of thinking, not something solid like "they're ugly", something you can point out and see. So although you're not a bigot and I don't wish to have you think I believe you are, you're not truly accepting. You still ultimately have the "I accept the fact you're gay, but not your gayness" mentality. You're happy they're happy, if it makes them happy, live and let live, as you said before. That's still not acceptance. It's conditional acceptance at the most.

But then again..............it's good enough. I'm not going to force you to go the extra mile. It's good enough because you're not impeding on our lives. You respect our lives. That's a good thing. Respect given, respect you get. So that's sort of how I see it. It's good enough but not ideal.
How can i not do the same with same sex couples? I don't consider men attractive at all, how is that different from considering an ugly girl not attractive?

Gay isn't a sexual preference, it's an immutable orientation, hence it's not about taste. Taste indicates preference. Few choose to be gay. Few choose to be straight. It's an attraction, you're ATTRACTION is towards women. Then you have taste regarding what women you're interested in. That's taste, not liking to see two unattractive people kiss is a taste thing. Not "homosexuality is unnatural and not normal and I find 2 guys kissing disgusting." That's not taste. That's a train of thought. Based on essentially nothing. That's why it's homophobia, and why homophobia is classified as irrational.
Tastes can be very immutable. My orientation is in a sense a key determinant of my taste. And my attraction is not towards all women, just like it is not towards any males.

Actually the problem I have is that you are determined to knowing why i don't like seeing two men frenching better than myself. In a sense I find it rather pretentious you would know me better than myself. The only person who could make such claims is my shrink (if i ever were to have one). You could be right, but i'm not convinced. I doubt you have sufficient knowledge of Psychology and my mind to make such claims with enough certainty.
 

hooblabla6262

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Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexual people, or people who are identified as being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.
Last time I checked, disgust was negative.

So yes, that would make you homophobic. You have an irrational fear, or disgust, of gay men.
And yet, not of gay woman. Why is that?

You seem to think it goes something like this. That straight men like gay woman and not gay men, and that straight woman like gay men and not gay woman. That's silly. Don't justify your intolerance, m'kay?

I could try to determine why you personally find acts of affection between two men disgusting, but there are usually a number of reasons and I don't know you on a personal level.

My advice? Try to show a little more maturity and rational behavior in those situations. Also, try to be around more gay men, so that the sight can "normalize" for you.

Or be homophobic, your call.
 

101flyboy

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Abomination said:
No, it is NOT a false analogy.
It is, and essentially stomping your feet will not change that, but I'll go along with it.

When seeking to emulate the feeling of disgust one might have at observing one thing they know is not wrong but still causes them pause has parallels between both.
Gay is not a thing. Snails for the purpose of eating is a thing. You're eating that *thing*, which happens to be a snail. In this case, this is about gay. And you not liking same-sex interaction between men. You don't like snails because it's a thing you don't connect towards eating. That's an actual quantifiable reason to not like something.

You don't like two men kissing because it's two men. There is nothing in that. It would be one thing to say "I don't like two men kissing, because men have more saliva" or "two men with beards kissing is weird, that looks like it would be super rough on their skin"........something of that sort. No. It's I don't like it, it's two men. There is ZERO quantifiable reasoning in that. When you have no similar feeling towards two women and a man and a woman doing the very same thing.

And actually, holding hands and sex came into the picture when it was brought up. The OP brought up hands holding and YOU brought up sex. It all comes down to insecurity of homosexuality and thus it all is on the table.

Do not just call "logical fallacy" without explaining WHY it is a logical fallacy. Both involve humans partaking in an action deemed strange (or maybe the better term is "queer") by society. Both spawn a sense of involuntary revolution. Both do not directly harm the viewer, participant or any part of society as a whole. Please explain how this is a false analogy.
Because you have zero reason to have such an irrational view towards same-sex kissing. Because you've been culturally brainwashed. Hell, you can say you've been culturally brainwashed into not liking snail as food because you only connect it to living sea life. But snails aren't human beings you have to associate with on a daily basis. So let's stop acting as if a gay man is comparable to a snail.
 

The White Hunter

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TizzytheTormentor said:
Tell a homophobic person they are afraid of gays and they will go all macho and claim they aren't afraid, they are usually just prejudiced assholes where people of the same gender getting married would have zero impact on their lives but feel the need to cry about something that doesn't affect them in any real shape or form.
This.

OT: Ehhh, I'm bi, I don't like seeing two guys get off in public. I don't like seeing anyone do that crap in pbulic tbh, I don't need to see it and will usually attempt to ignore it as best I can.
 

Treblaine

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Remember, Phobia doesn't mean "fear" that's just the single english word that is closest to the term.

Phobia is more than a fear, the fundamental aspect of a phobia is that it is dysfunctional and unreasonable.

Phobia is more like "severe aversion". Someone who has arachnophobia isn't just afraid of spiders like a sissy cowards, THEY HATE THEM! When they see a spider they want to crush it. It's completely unreasonable, they don't have such violent aversion to other small invertebrates like flies or ants.

That's what homophobia is: a sudden, irrational and paranoid over reaction to the appearance of same sex affection

It's not "fear" like "OMG! there's a giant bear in a theatre, run away", it's more like:

"Oh fuck, there's a giant spider on that seat over there"

or

"Oh fuck, There's two fags on the seats over there."

And I must add that Homophobia is NOT an accurate scientific term.

For one, Homo means Mankind, Homos means "the same". The illusion is in the term "Homosexual" it should be "homossexual" the "S" on the end is hidden.

But even if it was "homosphobia" that would still only be fear of things that are the same, and doesn't address how this well known phenomenon of how people react to men being sexually intimate with other men, it normally is very different to seeing two women being sexually intimate. If you are going to go greek, do all the say.

But none the less, "Homophobic" is a term that has stuck, even though the "Homo" prefix technically implies it's a fear of mankind, it's somewhat acceptable as "Homo" has become a term used for gay men, though hardly the most appropriate.

TLDR:

You know what arachnophobia is? It's that but the same reaction to seeing guys making out.
 

maninahat

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Jenvas1306 said:
maninahat said:
People have natural, instinctive reactions to certain situations, and some of them are unpleasant or negative. As long as they don't make important decisions off of the back of such behaviour or treat their disgust as universal/valid, keeping it to themselves, I don't see a problem.
well, I would say that disgust is mostly a learned reaction and not necessarily a natural one, especially in this case.
Natural disgust is probably more about the smell of food that has gone bad or feces, things that could make us sick. I highly doubt that being disgusted by the sight of display of affection between individuals of the same gender would ever increase chances of survival.

For me there isnt much difference if its a gay, lesbian or hetero couple who is kissing or what else, but I'm certainly also not especially attracted to watching either of them.
Okay, that's true. Ammend "natural, instinctive" to "ingrained and automatic".
 

dvd_72

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You know, I thought on this recently. I don't have a problem with homosexuals as they are, but overt displays of physical affection by them .... bugs me more than with heterosexual or lesbian couples. Thing is, I believe it to have something to do with my tendency to put myself in the shoes of people I observe. The thought of taking part in homosexual activities gives me the exact same uncomfortable feeling as I get when I observe these overt displays of affection.

I do believe that where I homosexual I'd have the same feeling of discomfort if I where to see overt displays of affection by a heterosexual couple (unless I put myself in the woman's shoes) or lesbian couple. That's just the way I think I am.
 

Jenvas1306

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An interessting example:
Imagine you are with your partner, whom you love deeply (or imagine such a person if youre single at the moment), and you happen to see an old couple, they are holding hands, looking at each other in that lovers way, maybe kissing decently. Isnt that sort of a cute image? doesnt it make you think of being with your partner for that long time and still having so much love for each other?

If your reaction is different based on that couple being a man and a woman, two women or two men, then you might have been brainwashed by society.
 

101flyboy

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generals3 said:
How can i not do the same with same sex couples? I don't consider men attractive at all, how is that different from considering an ugly girl not attractive?
You're not attracted to men because you're apparently 100% straight and you're not attracted to MEN, attractiveness be damned. There is no reason outside of "they're a man=no", which is understandable, you're 100% straight and that's how your mind fundamentally operates. That's not taste. That's immutable orientation.

You're not attracted to unattractive women because they're unattractive. That's taste. You prefer attractive women because your TASTE leads you to seeking attractive women out, they are more aesthetically pleasing to the eye. And your taste leads you to not seek unattractive women out. That's preferences based on what you are interested in and those interests are based on taste.

Tastes can be very immutable. My orientation is in a sense a key determinant of my taste. And my attraction is not towards all women, just like it is not towards any males.
Your attraction is a key determinant of your taste towards women. Men aren't even on the table for you. Only women are on the table for you. So there is no taste necessary with men, you're 100% straight.

Actually the problem I have is that you are determined to knowing why i don't like seeing two men frenching better than myself. In a sense I find it rather pretentious you would know me better than myself. The only person who could make such claims is my shrink (if i ever were to have one). You could be right, but i'm not convinced. I doubt you have sufficient knowledge of Psychology and my mind to make such claims with enough certainty.
You don't need to be convinced. I'm not telling you what to think. I *am* saying research has been done on the subject, I've read it, and I posted it on this page. It's up to you to ask yourself do you have a legitimate reason why you feel the way you do towards two guys showing affection.

Not frenching. French kissing/making out/whatever you want to call it. That's a different situation. We're talking about an innocent kiss. Maybe a bit a tongue, maybe not, all in all, an innocent kiss that occurs between a man and woman and two women daily. Not outright frenching. Basic affection. Affection done out of love. Not sexualized. Turning an innocent kiss into a sexualized incident actually is more or less a perfect example of projective disgust, not saying you did that.
 

disgruntledgamer

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Aaron Sylvester said:
Okay firstly let me clear up where I'm coming from, I'm your typical heterosexual male aged in his 20's. And I have a dilemma - you see, I absolutely love the sight of two women kissing or getting it on. It's rather arousing, if not simply plain damn sexy as hell.
But the sight of two GUYS kissing makes my brain have a fucking seizure. I can't help it.

The definition of homophobia is "holding prejudice against homosexuals", but I hold no prejudice against a guy I meet if he tells me he's gay. Whatever, doesn't bother me, I'd still treat him the same as I treat anyone else. BUT if I saw the same guy engaging in something romantic...even something as simple as holding hands in a "we are obviously lovers" fashion with another guy...I feel the need to look away, something simply clicks in my mind and yells "oh god why did I have to see that??". An image of two guys kissing, even on the internet, makes me immediately get rid of that image as fast as my fingers allow me to and spend the next few minutes recovering from the shock of seeing such a thing, my mind desperately trying to trash that image into a virtual bin.

But I still find the sight of lesbians damn, damn sexy.

You see, what I'm asking here is why the word "homophobic" has one single definition, when I GUARANTEE you that a sizable chunk of the world's population could be classified as "homophobic" when it comes to homosexuals of their own gender, and not bothered at all by the idea of the OPPOSITE sex engaging in homosexual acts.

Case in point, I bet a lot of women find the idea of two guys getting it on quite sexy/arousing. It has to be true judging by all the stuff I find on DeviantArt (yes, that site, deal with it :p) drawn-up by female artists, and all the comments by female fans. And I've known plenty of females who could literally puke at the very thought of two girls kissing yelling "oh god disgusting!!", something that would be a welcome sight by a lot of guys. They could be called homophobic because they dislike the idea of lesbians...okay, dislike is a strong word, but they will still make them uneasy or uncomfortable. But it's only natural, is it not??

Thoughts?

And of course, what would be an Escapist discussion be without a slightly relevant video :p
You're not a homophobic. I get the same feeling when I see 2 men kissing to, I also get the same feeling when I see my parents kiss as well doesn't mean anything.
 

BringBackBuck

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Jenvas1306 said:
An interessting example:
Imagine you are with your partner, whom you love deeply (or imagine such a person if youre single at the moment), and you happen to see an old couple, they are holding hands, looking at each other in that lovers way, maybe kissing decently. Isnt that sort of a cute image? doesnt it make you think of being with your partner for that long time and still having so much love for each other?

If your reaction is different based on that couple being a man and a woman, two women or two men, then society might have brain washed you.
My reaction would be different for those things, but that's OK.

I would prefer to see two women making out, or a guy and a girl, than two guys making out. That's just preference.
Back to your example:
What if the man was 82, and the girl 19? The man tiny and the woman morbidly obese? One guy a wealthy businessman and his partner a homeless bum? One person obviously mentally handicapped and the other not?

Would your reaction be different to these scenarios? Or has society brain washed you too?
 

101flyboy

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Time to post the projective disgust article again so everyone can read it, because the descriptions most are giving (either theoretically or actual individual thought) are classic examples of projective disgust:

http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/06/disgust-at-primary-objects-and-projective-disgust/

Disgust seems like a deep-seated bodily response to certain smells, sights, and feels, which has little to do with what we learn or how we interpret the world.

In the past twenty years, however, important experimental work by psychologist Paul Rozin and his colleagues has shown conclusively that disgust has a marked cognitive element. What people find disgusting depends crucially on the idea they have of the object. Thus disgust is not simply sensory distaste. Subjects who sniff the same odor from two vials, being told that one contains feces and the other contains cheese, are usually disgusted by the first but not by the second. Nor is disgust identical with the sense of danger. People will eat formerly poisonous mushrooms if they are convinced that the poison has been removed, but they won?t swallow a cockroach even if they are sure it has been sterilized; subjects even refuse to swallow a cockroach sealed in a plastic capsule that will emerge, undigested, in the subject?s feces.

Disgust, Rozin finds, concerns the borders of the body. Its central idea is that of contamination: the disgusted person feels defiled by the object, thinking that it has somehow entered the self. Further experiments show that behind this idea of personal contamination lies the idea that ?you are what you eat?: if you take in something base or vile, you become like that yourself.

So what are people unwilling to be or become? The so-called primary objects of disgust are reminders of human animality and mortality: feces, other bodily fluids, corpses, and animals or insects who have related properties (slimy, smelly, oozy) . . . .

When people experience disgust, then, they are expressing an aversion to prominent aspects of what every human being is. They feel contaminated by what reminds them of these aspects, which people often prefer to conceal. Such aversions almost certainly have an evolutionary basis, but they still have to be confirmed by learning: children do not exhibit disgust until the ages of two or three years old, during the time of toilet training. This means that society has room to interpret and shape the emotion, directing it to some objects rather than others, as happens with anger and compassion.

In virtually all societies, disgust is standardly felt toward a group of primary objects: feces, blood, semen, urine, nasal discharges, menstrual discharges, corpses, decaying meat, and animal/insects that are oozy, slimy, or smelly . . . Disgust at primary objects is usually a useful heuristic, steering us away from the dangerous when there is no time for detailed inquiry.

Disgust is then extended from object to object in ways that could hardly bear rational scrutiny. This sort of extended disgust is what I call projective disgust . . . .

Projective disgust is shaped by social norms, as societies teach their members to identify alleged contaminants in their midst. All societies, it appears, identify as least some humans as disgusting. Very likely this is a stratagem adopted to cordon off the dominant group more securely from its own feared animality: if those quasi humans stand between me and the world of disgusting animality, then I am that much further from being mortal/decaying/smelly/oozy myself. Projective disgust rarely has any reliable connection with genuine danger. It feeds on fantasy, and engineers subordination. Although it does serve a deep-seated human need ? the need to represent oneself as pure and others as dirty ? this is a need whose relation to social fairness looks (and is) highly questionable.

Projective disgust (involving projection of disgust properties onto a group or individual) takes many forms, but it always involves linking the allegedly disgusting group or person somehow with the primary objects of disgust. Sometimes this is done by stressing the close practical connection of the group with the primary objects: untouchables in the Indian caste system were those who cleaned latrines and disposed of corpses; women seem to many men to be particularly closely linked with blood and other bodily fluids through their receptive sexuality, their role in birth, and menstruation, a common source of norms of ?untouchability.?

Often, however, the extension works in more fantasy-laden ways, by imputing to people or groups properties similar to those that are found disgusting in the primary objects: bad smell, ooziness, rottenness, germiness, decay. Typically, these projections have no basis in reality. Jews are not really slimy, or similar to maggots, although German anti-Semities, and Hitler himself, said that they were. African-Americans do not smell worse than other human beings, although racists said that they did. And often, when there is an element of what I?ve called practical connection, projection imputes dirtiness or contamination where where is no reason to do so. . . Notice, then, that projective disgust involves a double fantasy: a fantasy of the dirtiness of the other and a fantasy of one?s own purity. Both sides of the projection involve false belief, and both conduce to a politics of hierarchy.

Societies have many ways of stigmatizing vulnerable minorities. Disgust is not the only mechanism of stigmatization. It is, however, a powerful and central one, and when it is removed (when, for example, aversion to physical contact with a racial minority is no longer present), other modes of hierarchy tend to depart along with it.

It is not surprising that sexuality is an area of life in which disgust often plays a role. Sex involves the exchange of bodily fluids, and it marks us as bodily beings rather than angelic transcendent beings. So sex is a site of anxiety for anyone who is ambivalent about having an animal and mortal nature, and that includes many if not most people. Primary-object disgust therefore plays a significant role in sexual relations, as the bodily substances people encounter in sex (semen, sweat, feces, menstrual blood) are very often found disgusting and seen as contaminants. Therefore, it is not surprising that projective disgust also plays a prominent role in the sexual domain. In almost all societies, people identify a group of sexual actors as disgusting or pathological, contrasting them with ?normal? or ?pure? sexual actors (prominently including the people themselves and their own group). This stigmatization takes many different forms. Misogyny is an aspect of it in most cultures, as males distance themselves from the discomfort they feel by associating bodily fluids with the woman who receives them, and not, at the same time, with their own bodies . . . .

There is no doubt that the body of the gay man has been a central locus of disgust-anxiety ? above all, for other men. Female homosexuals may be objects of fear, or moral indignation, or generalized anxiety; but they have less often been objects of disgust. Similarly, heterosexual females may have felt negative emotions toward the male homosexual ? fear, moral indignation, anxiety ? but again, they have more rarely felt emotions of disgust . . .

What inspires disgust is typically the male thought of the male homosexual, imagined as anally penetrable. The idea of semen and feces mixing together inside the body of a male is one of the most disgusting ideas imaginable ? to males, for whom the idea of nonpenetrability is a sacred boundary against stickiness, ooze, and death. (The idea of contamination-by-penetration is probably one central idea, but the more general idea is that of the male body as defiled by the contamination of bodily fluids: and proximity to a contaminated body is itself contaminating.) The presence of a homosexual male in the neighborhood inspires the thought that one might lose one?s own clean safeness, one might become the receptacle for those animal products. Thus disgust is ultimately disgust at one?s own imagined penetrability and ooziness, and this is why the male homosexual is both regarded with disgust and viewed with fear as a predator who might make everyone else disgusting. The very look of such a male is itself contaminating ? as we see in the extraordinary debates about showers in the military. The gaze of a homosexual male is seen as contaminating because it says, ?You can be penetrated.? And this means that you can be made of feces and semen and blood, not clean plastic flesh. Thus it is not surprising that (to males) the thought of homosexual sex is even more disgusting than the thought of reproductive sex, despite the strong connection of the latter with mortality and the cycle of the generations. For in heterosexual sex the male imagines that not he but a lesser being (the woman, seen as animal) receives the pollution of bodily fluids; in imagining homosexual sex he is forced to imagine that he himself might be so polluted. This inspires a stronger need for boundary drawing . . . .

I contend that projective disgust plays no proper role in arguing for legal regulation, because of the emotion?s normative irrationality and its connection to stigma and hierarchy.

We cannot conclude that a policy is wrong simply because it is backed by a rhetoric of disgust: for there may be other better reasons in its favor. Disgust, however, often prevents us from looking for those good reasons, creating the misleading impression that the policy has already been well defended. Turning to it to legitimize policies that can be defended in other ways is therefore dangerous, because this encourages us to stop short in our search for rationally defensible categories. And the emotion itself encourages us to accept hierarchies and boundaries that are not defensible within a political tradition based on equal respect.

Even those who believe that disgust still provides a sufficient reason for rendering certain practices illegal, however, should agree with a weaker thesis: namely, that disgust provides no good reason for limiting liberties or compromising equalities that are constitutionally protected (pp. 13-21).
 

101flyboy

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disgruntledgamer said:
You're not a homophobic. I get the same feeling when I see 2 men kissing to, I also get the same feeling when I see my parents kiss as well doesn't mean anything.
You indirectly just compared homosexuality to incest.
 

someonehairy-ish

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Mar 15, 2009
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101flyboy said:
TJC said:
Ok, look, guys. I'm on this site to procrastinate, so I can't dignify either of you with a full response right now. You both have good points. I actually agree with you on 90% of what you've said, and I think I've misrepresented my own position quite badly.
Basically, after skimming the thread, I felt that-

Flyboy seemed to be slightly too aggressive. The vibe I got was 'if you're even slightly bothered by this, then you're bad and/or have some psychological problem.'

Whereas my position is something like 'If you're sightly bothered by this, then you're not intrinsically bad, but you should try to move past it. In the meantime, simply not allowing yourself to become a problem for other people is adequate.

Anyway, I'll expand on this properly another time. Got essays to do...
 

Jenvas1306

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dvd_72 said:
You know, I thought on this recently. I don't have a problem with homosexuals as they are, but overt displays of physical affection by them .... bugs me more than with heterosexual or lesbian couples. Thing is, I believe it to have something to do with my tendency to put myself in the shoes of people I observe. The thought of taking part in homosexual activities gives me the exact same uncomfortable feeling as I get when I observe these overt displays of affection.

I do believe that where I homosexual I'd have the same feeling of discomfort if I where to see overt displays of affection by a heterosexual couple (unless I put myself in the woman's shoes) or lesbian couple. That's just the way I think I am.
That makes a surprizing amount of sense. If you put yourself into the position of either of a lesbian couple, you would still kiss a woman, which would be nice if you are attracted to that woman.
The point is, if you should feel directly disgusted if you would end up kissing a guy, or just not have the positive effect of kissing a woman you are attracted to.

I dont find it disgusting to kiss a woman per se, it depends on the individual, as it does with men. I actually have tried it and wasnt disgusted, it was just a kiss without all the excitement I experiance when kissing a guy I'm attracted to.