What is being homophobic?

[101flyboy]

Discomfort due to lack of exposure isn't internalized homophobia, which isn't full blown homophobia.

 

[FolkLikePanda]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

 

[101flyboy]

Not at all. I would be a bit disgusted internally if I saw an old person (think 80-ish) making out with a younger person (say, 20), and don't see how having a similar feeling when seeing two people of the same gender make out is INHERENTLY wrong, nor have you done anything to show that this disgust is because of some connection to some other type of disgust.

There is a biological component within human beings to protect those we see as vulnerable from harm. And protect youth from harm. That is a natural inclination. That is not social indoctrination. That is not an inherently negative feeling. Homophobia is. There are zero reasons, literally zero quantifiable reasons, to view two adult men kissing the same way you view someone under 21 fucking an 80 year old. Projective disgust is ultimately a moral and conceptual disgust that develops into a physical, emotional and instinctual disgust. In general, people find it wrong for a 20 year old to fuck an 80 year old because what their minds jump to is "the 80 year old is taking advantage of this kid"..........."the 20 year old is only in it for the perks".........."that 80 year old is old enough to be the kid's grandfather"........."how does the 80 year old have sex".

What are those feelings regarding homosexuality? What similar questions, similar skepticism, would a person have towards being gay? What creates that moral negativity against homosexuality?

Society.

Yes, some or even most of the people disgusted by specific sexual acts also have latent prejudices as well, but the two are not mutually inclusive.

True. But there are no quantifiable reasons to feel such extreme negativity towards homosexuality. Not even discussing logical reasons, legitimate reasons, for this negativity, but actual reasons with any sort of fiber. There are NONE.

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

He doesn't like tomatoes because he doesn't like the texture. That's a valid reason not to like tomatoes. You think of tomatoes and you think of tomatoes you've eaten and gotten sick from. Your mind and body then protects you from tomatoes. You avoid eating them, discussing them. You hate watching people eat them. That's your mind and body doing it's job in reading what you don't like and operating in turn.

What exact reason does a person have in not liking homosexuality? Being straight isn't a reason..........we have many people here saying they have no issue with homosexuality. Or same-sex kissing. Religion isn't simply a reason............plenty of religious gays and straight allies who are religious. It's not procreation because for as much as Abomination wants to throw out the "gays can't have babies" card, homosexuality does not threaten heterosexual reproduction in any way.

Like you said, it's irrational. The problem is that this is an irrational attitude that has a direct impact in harming others, and it is an irrational attitude that is socially-conditioned and can be changed. And because it's a negative attitude that harms both individuals and society at large, it should be changed.

Whenever I see a long strand of hair on my person, I flip the fuck out until it is removed. I remove any long strands that I see, even pulling them off of the clothes of people I'm with, just to get them away. A small clump of knotted hair, especially when it is made of long strands, makes me gag just thinking about it. There's no reason for this. I KNOW there's no reason for this. But my gag reflex does not give a shit about rationality.

Hair isn't a human being and not liking a long strand of hair on a person isn't actively harming that persons' (the person with the hair on their clothes) ability to live their live as they see fit without discrimination and consternation.

Quit generalizing. It makes you look, well, incredibly intolerant.

I am intolerant of homophobia. I will always be intolerant of homophobia. I will always be intolerant towards those who lack tolerance themselves against gay people. Intolerance doesn't receive tolerance. That's not what tolerance entails.

 

[101flyboy]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

Internalized homophobia doesn't=homophobic. Slight discomfort doesn't necessarily=internalized homophobia. It's a case by case by case basis. Some people just lack exposure. Some just don't like PDA and are a little prudish. It's really up to individuals themselves to decide whether their biases are rooted in internalized homophobia or not.

 

[FolkLikePanda]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

Internalized homophobia doesn't=homophobic. Slight discomfort doesn't necessarily=internalized homophobia. It's a case by case by case basis. Some people just lack exposure. Some just don't like PDA and are a little prudish. It's really up to individuals themselves to decide whether their biases are rooted in internalized homophobia or not.

Whats PDA?

And isn't internalized homophobia when a gay person hates other gay people for being gay because they don't like being gay?

 

[101flyboy]

I dunno. I kind of figured homophobia was a sexuality issue.

Kissing is a sexual issue? I don't think so.

It's impossible not to allow socially-constructed biases enter your mind. It's called cultural relativity.

However, it IS impossible for homosexuality to be NORMAL behavior.

Let me explain.

100% homosexuality can never be the norm because, regardless of if our sexuality is genetic or environmental, the majority of humanity has an inner urge to procreate. The amount of people having sex exclusively with the same gender will NEVER hit even a quarter of the amount of people who have sex with the other gender from time to time.

It's not a bad thing to be abnormal, but being gay is abnormal. Everyone is weird for some reason, it's not the end of the world.

1. No accredited organization that delves in the matter of sexuality believes homosexuality to be abnormal. Or a birth defect. And this in fact hasn't been considered a serious viewpoint for 40 years.

2. Not the norm doesn't=abnormal. You're right, 100% homosexuality will never be the norm. That doesn't make it abnormal.

3. Sex is not solely to procreate and procreation isn't a top 15 reason why people engage in sexual intercourse.

4. You can procreate without having sex. You can procreate without being straight.

Even the largely bisexual Roman culture had WAY more straights and bisexuals than homosexuals.

Bisexuality includes homosexuality. In fact, bonobos are the animal closest to humans biologically. And they are 90% bisexual. Sexuality is a continuum, and most people are not 100% straight. Homosexuality in itself is very normal.

In other words, you're just making people out to seem bad, when in fact, they are doing the best they can.

No, they actually are not. But since you think it's OK to be homophobic, there is no point in debating that point. It is not natural to be homophobic yet you seem to believe it is, although you clearly DO NOT have any peer reviewed study out there you've developed that can in any way prove your theory fact.

Both of us are enlightened to how socially-constructed biases affect our lives, but you need to allow people to be ignorant so long as they aren't bigoted.

No, I do not "need to allow" people to be ignorant. Ignorance begets bigotry. Without ignorance, the bigotry wouldn't exist. So to eliminate the bigotry, you need to eliminate the ignorance and replace it with awareness and education. That's the only reason why homophobia has died down in US society. Not by allowing homophobes be homophobic and giving them a free pass.

 

[chadachada123]

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

He doesn't like tomatoes because he doesn't like the texture. That's a valid reason not to like tomatoes. You think of tomatoes and you think of tomatoes you've eaten and gotten sick from. Your mind and body then protects you from tomatoes. You avoid eating them, discussing them. You hate watching people eat them. That's your mind and body doing it's job in reading what you don't like and operating in turn.

What exact reason does a person have in not liking homosexuality? Being straight isn't a reason..........we have many people here saying they have no issue with homosexuality. Or same-sex kissing. Religion isn't simply a reason............plenty of religious gays and straight allies who are religious. It's not procreation because for as much as Abomination wants to throw out the "gays can't have babies" card, homosexuality does not threaten heterosexual reproduction in any way.

Like you said, it's irrational. The problem is that this is an irrational attitude that has a direct impact in harming others, and it is an irrational attitude that is socially-conditioned and can be changed. And because it's a negative attitude that harms both individuals and society at large, it should be changed.

You haven't described a functional difference between the tomato example and homosexuality. Religion has nothing to do with this.

I dislike the taste of tomatoes: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing others eating tomatoes.

I dislike making out with men: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing men making out with other men.

The disgust at touching another man may be irrational or without reason, but, again, hair example. If I can be randomly disgusted by strings of keratin, I can easily foresee people being squeamish about a demographic they aren't attracted to fooling around in front of them. That some people will ALWAYS be grossed out by the thought of you touching them says nothing about their character, since the reaction is, and I feel this doesn't need any more repeating, irrational.

That some people allow their uncontrollable urges/reactions/gut-instincts control their behavior is not an argument against the urges, but an argument against not knowing yourself and your own biases.

This is no different from a lesbian feeling feelings of disgust at the thought of making out with a man (and I have spoken with several women that do).

 

[101flyboy]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

Internalized homophobia doesn't=homophobic. Slight discomfort doesn't necessarily=internalized homophobia. It's a case by case by case basis. Some people just lack exposure. Some just don't like PDA and are a little prudish. It's really up to individuals themselves to decide whether their biases are rooted in internalized homophobia or not.

Whats PDA?

And isn't internalized homophobia when a gay person hates other gay people for being gay because they don't like being gay?

PDA=public displays of affection.

Internalized homophobia could come from many different sources. The closet case theory has been proven fact, and at the very least a very large amount of individuals who are homophobic are gay. But it's not all. Many people are simply indoctrinated into homophobia. Some are threatened by things that are outside of their worldview that they don't understand. Reasons vary.

 

[JudgeGame]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

It's a deeply ingrained form of homophobia but homophobia nonetheless. You might feel better knowing that you aren't homophobic by choice but because someone told you you had to be. However, it is your choice if you want to accept this or challenge what you were taught and find the truth for yourself.

 

[JudgeGame]

While we're at it, if you feel uneasy seeing black people make out or imagining having sex with a black person, that's racism.

 

[Seydaman]

Yes, you're homophobic. What matters however is how you react to that, I have a phobia of spiders and dark water, but I don't go around asking for the murder of all spiders, and lights in all deep pools. If you're not going around running up to gay people and shouting
"STOOOOPPPPPP"
Then whatever, however, there are a lot of treatments to deal with phobias, if you have a therapist you should talk to them about it, or your regular doctor/care provider.

 

[101flyboy]

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

He doesn't like tomatoes because he doesn't like the texture. That's a valid reason not to like tomatoes. You think of tomatoes and you think of tomatoes you've eaten and gotten sick from. Your mind and body then protects you from tomatoes. You avoid eating them, discussing them. You hate watching people eat them. That's your mind and body doing it's job in reading what you don't like and operating in turn.

What exact reason does a person have in not liking homosexuality? Being straight isn't a reason..........we have many people here saying they have no issue with homosexuality. Or same-sex kissing. Religion isn't simply a reason............plenty of religious gays and straight allies who are religious. It's not procreation because for as much as Abomination wants to throw out the "gays can't have babies" card, homosexuality does not threaten heterosexual reproduction in any way.

Like you said, it's irrational. The problem is that this is an irrational attitude that has a direct impact in harming others, and it is an irrational attitude that is socially-conditioned and can be changed. And because it's a negative attitude that harms both individuals and society at large, it should be changed.

You haven't described a functional difference between the tomato example and homosexuality. Religion has nothing to do with this.

I dislike the taste of tomatoes: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing others eating tomatoes.

I dislike making out with men: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing men making out with other men.

The disgust at touching another man may be irrational or without reason, but, again, hair example. If I can be randomly disgusted by strings of keratin, I can easily foresee people being squeamish about a demographic they aren't attracted to fooling around in front of them. That some people will ALWAYS be grossed out by the thought of you touching them says nothing about their character, since the reaction is, and I feel this doesn't need any more repeating, irrational.

That some people allow their uncontrollable urges/reactions/gut-instincts control their behavior is not an argument against the urges, but an argument against not knowing yourself and your own biases.

This is no different from a lesbian feeling feelings of disgust at the thought of making out with a man (and I have spoken with several women that do).

I dislike making out with men? Yet, Abomination has I'm guessing never made out with a man. Yet he has eaten a tomato and he didn't like it. So the two are still not comparable. Add onto the fact not all men are the same. A man with a beard is different than a man clean shaven. A 40 year old man isn't a 20 year old man. There are more versions of "man" than there are of "tomato".

We're also not discussing the idea of a person THEMSELVES making out with someone of the gender they are not attracted to. That isn't in question. What's in question is the idea that finding two people showing basic affection, not even making out, but simple kissing, hugging up to your partner, hand holding, disgusting. We're discussing innocent affection. And that people turn innocent affection into a sexual come-on.

The urges themselves are as you said, irrational, but unlike other urges, there is no fundamental reason to hold this particular urge. I still haven't heard a reason. There doesn't have to be a reason, and I know there is NOT one, but that's the point. No-one has a reason, and it's irrational completely, but also not natural. Repressing said biases effectively renders them null. A person with a bias is a person who openly believes in whatever socially-constructed bullshit they've allowed damage their psyche. People who actively repress said bias are not biased. It's dormant. The bias may be inside of them but it's not alive.

 

[Silvanus]

Discomfort due to lack of exposure is fine. That's not the fault of the individual, it's the fault of society and history.

I chose to share a room with one of my close friends at Uni. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I had a boyfriend at the time. He said a year or two later that he had felt slightly uncomfortable at first, but after about a week, he realized he didn't anymore. It was simply lack of exposure.



He wasn't homophobic, because he reacted to it with maturity and it didn't bother him one iota after a few days.

What IS homophobic, on the other hand, is people who have this immediate negative reaction, and then act like that's a fine way to carry on. People who say, 'I can't help it, it makes me sick'. That's not okay. It takes only a modicum of maturity to recognize that your reaction is illogical. Don't be proud of your instinctual discomfort. Recognize it for what it is, and overcome it for the sake of the respect you owe to people.

 

[JudgeGame]

-snip-

-snip-

Seriously, people aren't tomatoes. Tomatoes can't process information or have emotions. This analogy sucks and it's offensive. Find better analogies and try and remember you're talking about people here. Alternatively, focus some time and energy on realizing people touching and caressing each other is totally normal and not disgusting at all. It only takes a bit of effort.

You know what's truly disgusting, biting your nails. You don't want to know the kind of filth you accumulate there.

 

[ZeroAxis]

HOMOPHOBIA: The fear that another man will treat you the way you treat women. /thread

 

[lacktheknack]

I am very homophobic.

The very idea of things not changing causes me great panic. I think I need help. ;__;

 

[lacktheknack]

HOMOPHOBIA: The fear that another man will treat you the way you treat women. /thread

You can't /thread yourself, you need someone else to do it, because often it's not a valid /thread.

I know anti-gay guys who treat women wonderfully. Also, your statement doesn't account for homophobic women.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

We are pretty much going in circles for like 8 pages now and it's starting to get tedious. People are too caught up in the whole evolution and "the goal of life" (philosophers have been discussing this for millennia, but every person against homosexuality has it all figured out) as if they are some omnipotent and conscious deities that DEMAND *something* from everyone and will punish us when we don't conform. That is silly and childish. The matter of fact is that as natural creatures on this earth, everything we CAN DO is natural by way of associative logic and by your definitions "nature" has ALLOWED humans and animals to be homosexual, it doesn't even matter why. It isn't hard to debunk the "unnatural" routine, but it requires more thought than "buuuuut it doesn't make babiiieeezzz waaaah". Neither does oral sex, but you don't whine about that.

 

[101flyboy]

Let's pick some normalities, since there are multiple "normals" (although the one we are mainly talking about is psychological).

Say we are talking about biological normality.

If homosexuality is genetic, homosexuality is a biological abnormality.

What about sociological abnormality?

The entire world is oriented against same-sex relationships (although it is slowly changing to be accepted). Homosexuality is definitively a sociological abnormality.

What about psychological?

What about the fact no accredited organization believes homosexuality is abnormal? What about the fact something can be not the norm, and yet still be a normal part of society, biology, psychologically normal, physically normal. Homosexuality, is, in fact, normal. It's just not the norm.

See, nomenclature is the real problem. A lot of people think abnormal means something negative, and others use it as a term to describe something out of the ordinary. Anything can (and WILL) be called abnormal until it is fully accepted, simply because it fits the definition.

I don't consider the word normal a good or bad word. The word abnormal itself isn't a good or bad word, either. But you would have to be pretty dense not to understand that it is a loaded word. And you strike me as an intelligent guy. I think you know abnormal is a loaded word and you're using it intentionally.

Acceptance doesn't have anything to do with something being abnormal. Murder isn't accepted as OK and it is a normal part of every society.

Now, acceptance OF homosexuality is abnormal, yes. If you would have said that, you would have been correct. Homosexuality in society itself is NOT abnormal but societies throughout history have been anti-gay. So within, what, 10 years, that's going to change, and it's going to be homophobia that is categorically abnormal. Social norms change throughout time. But we're discussing homosexuality in itself.

Regardless, if you think that the world should just change and accept homosexuals out of nowhere, then I'm sorry, but you're being naive.

Out of nowhere? No. It takes time. But it's time worth taking.

The first statement is ridiculous, and the second statement irrelevant.

Both statements are facts, and there is nothing irrelevant about what I said. In fact the second statement, that people can procreate without engaging in sexual activity, is very relevant, due to the first point, which is that people do NOT have sex to procreate.

http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/men/package.jsp?name=fte/10reasons/10reasons

Now, if you would have said people are straight because of the need to procreate, you would have been correct. But the statement you made wasn't that, and is an attempt to justify your claim homosexuality is deviant, which it is not.

 

[101flyboy]

Evolution is a sum-of-all-parts deal. That's what those who use the procreation argument fail to realize.