What is being homophobic?

[101flyboy]

You've never heard a gay man say he thinks heterosexuality is gross?

You must not know a lot of gay men, lol.

I know gay men who think vagina is gross is general. I know gay men who think boobs are ugly fat bubbles. I know straight men who think feet are disgusting and straight men who like to fantasize about their sisters. I know gay and straight men and women who like to pretend that they are raping their partner in bed.

Like I said before, discomfort is a NORMAL reaction to any sort of deviant sexual behavior that doesn't turn you on.

I didn't say heterosexuality. I said a man and woman kissing. You don't see gay men, lesbian women saying they don't want to see men and women kiss. They find it abhorrent. Disgusting. And unnatural. Nope. A few do, and they're usually the real extreme types who have an inner-hatred towards straight people in general.

I think vagina is unappaling personally. Not really gross in terms of gagging, but it makes do a double take, I don't like the sight of vaginas at all. I find it unappealing. I know straight men who find vagina gross. I know straight women who find vagina gross. I don't find WOMEN gross. I don't find heterosexual sex gross. There is a big difference between disliking one aspect of a respective gender's body, and finding the entire gender "disgusting". Let's be clear about that. A lot of straight guys say they find men disgusting. That isn't a rational mentality. That is irrational. No-one is disgusting because of their physical sex.

You, like essentially all of the posters here defending the OP, keep turning this into an issue of sex. It's PROJECTIVE DISGUST. You are projecting disgust on an innocent action such as kissing because you mind turns to the messier aspects of what these two people are doing, which is anal sex and oral sex with two guys, and vaginal intercourse with two women. You project disgust and discomfort onto an innocent thing such as kissing because you find these messier aspects unnatural and disgusting. Because you find these things wrong. It's a protective mechanism, a person finds these things unnatural and wrong, so your mind rejects them outright.

There is nothing unnatural, wrong, or inherently disgusting regarding homosexuality. There is nothing deviant regarding homosexuality. There is nothing unhealthy regarding homosexuality.

When you allow socially-constructed biases enter your mind, it becomes instinctual to think a certain way about things. It becomes ingrained into you. That doesn't make it natural, and that doesn't make those thoughts acceptable.

 

[101flyboy]

That has always been the case and I doubt anybody had a different opinion on where homophobia originates ;d

Hahaha, true, but a few here have said that homophobia is natural revulsion that straight people have towards homosexuality (while being proven wrong by other straight people saying they feel no such revulsion) and that homophobia is a result of a natural revulsion towards the fact homosexuality doesn't end up in life (ain't that a doozy). So it's good to see the *actual* reason reinforced for those who may actually not understand why homophobia exists

It's pointless to BLAME them for anything though, because that isn't a realization they themselves reached after much internal deliberation. It is an opinion that has been driven into them and constantly reinforced by the outside world.

Exactly. It's not the human that's in error. They are simply believing/acting out what they know. It's the society and the actual mentality that's in error and needs fixing.

We can see it at work even now for the opposite - now homophobia is seen as wrong, but that too didn't come from themselves, but because society is growing up a bit and is more accepting in general. That worries me though, because it shows a lack of personal thought and a sheep mentality on a massive scale (not surprising anybody there).

No surprises at all. But I'll take it.........at least on this, the ends justify the means. If it takes promoting acceptance of homosexuality and complete media/wide-reaching social condemnation of homophobia to pressure people into not being homophobic, then that's what it takes.

WE can't really convince them that homosexuality is natural no matter what evidence we come up with, because most people are close-minded and refuse to change their stance even when they are proven wrong. The only thing we can do is teach acceptance in the younger generations and in time I hope all pointless hate and fear is going to dissipate. We are on the right track though.

We definitely are on the right track. Younger generations are clearly much more accepting than all other groups, as they are growing up in a word where there is more gay inclusiveness, awareness, and gay-positive messages being sent from people in powerful places. It's fostered change in a lot of adults, too. Things are continuously getting better. We can't convince those who refuse to change to see the error of their ways but we can definitely call them out on refusing to do so. We have to.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

You, like essentially all of the posters here defending the OP, keep turning this into an issue of sex.

I dunno. I kind of figured homophobia was a sexuality issue.

Guess not?

When you allow socially-constructed biases enter your mind, it becomes instinctual to think a certain way about things. It becomes ingrained into you. That doesn't make it natural, and that doesn't make those thoughts acceptable.

It's impossible not to allow socially-constructed biases enter your mind. It's called cultural relativity.

However, it IS impossible for homosexuality to be NORMAL behavior.

Let me explain.

100% homosexuality can never be the norm because, regardless of if our sexuality is genetic or environmental, the majority of humanity has an inner urge to procreate. The amount of people having sex exclusively with the same gender will NEVER hit even a quarter of the amount of people who have sex with the other gender from time to time.

It's not a bad thing to be abnormal, but being gay is abnormal. Everyone is weird for some reason, it's not the end of the world.

Even the largely bisexual Roman culture had WAY more straights and bisexuals than homosexuals.

In other words, you're just making people out to seem bad, when in fact, they are doing the best they can.

Both of us are enlightened to how socially-constructed biases affect our lives, but you need to allow people to be ignorant so long as they aren't bigoted.

Being homophobic isn't a bad thing; it's almost natural in the fucked up world we live in to be scared about your own sexuality and sexuality's impact on your life in general. Looking down on homosexuals as morally wrong or bad people, however, is a bad thing.

There's a huge difference.

Edit: removed a pretty bad tangent lol

 

[chadachada123]

The good thing about this thread is it's made it pretty clear that the only reason people feel repelled by same-sex intimacy is that they find it unnatural.

Not at all. I would be a bit disgusted internally if I saw an old person (think 80-ish) making out with a younger person (say, 20), and don't see how having a similar feeling when seeing two people of the same gender make out is INHERENTLY wrong, nor have you done anything to show that this disgust is because of some connection to some other type of disgust. Yes, some or even most of the people disgusted by specific sexual acts also have latent prejudices as well, but the two are not mutually inclusive. I don't get grossed out from seeing any gender make out, but I do for, as above, older and younger mixings. In no way do I think that I am more "pure" than some old guy, nor does the cleanliness play into it. It's just an irrational, unconscious reaction.

To use an example:

So what you're saying is "Shut up and start liking tomatoes"? Because I am fine with the colour of tomatoes, I am fine with growing tomatoes, I am fine with the taste of tomatoes, I understand the nutrient benefit of tomatoes, I don't want to stop other people from being able to eat tomatoes but I don't like the texture of tomatoes and I get the shivers when I see someone bite into a tomato because it reminds me of the texture I don't like.

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

Whenever I see a long strand of hair on my person, I flip the fuck out until it is removed. I remove any long strands that I see, even pulling them off of the clothes of people I'm with, just to get them away. A small clump of knotted hair, especially when it is made of long strands, makes me gag just thinking about it. There's no reason for this. I KNOW there's no reason for this. But my gag reflex does not give a shit about rationality.

TL;DR: Quit generalizing. It makes you look, well, incredibly intolerant.

 

[Technocrat]

It's a learned prejudice. Fifty years ago, people of different ethnicities kissing on television caused apocalyptic uproars. In fifty years time, nobody will care about men kissing on TV.

 

[Rblade]

It's just an irrational, unconscious reaction.

thank you, my exact thought.

If you grow up without something, it will appear strange to you and it will trigger that response. It's my rational choice to ignore that type of reaction and not act upon them in any way that makes me human, and in my case not homophobic or racist. Even if homosexuals, and yes also some ethnic groups, give me a moments pause sometimes (by no means disgust). I'm sure I'll completely grow out of it at some point, but I can't switch it off. I simply grew up in a very rural very villagy place. I would prefer not to be called homophobic on that account.

 

[101flyboy]

Discomfort due to lack of exposure isn't internalized homophobia, which isn't full blown homophobia.

 

[FolkLikePanda]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

 

[101flyboy]

Not at all. I would be a bit disgusted internally if I saw an old person (think 80-ish) making out with a younger person (say, 20), and don't see how having a similar feeling when seeing two people of the same gender make out is INHERENTLY wrong, nor have you done anything to show that this disgust is because of some connection to some other type of disgust.

There is a biological component within human beings to protect those we see as vulnerable from harm. And protect youth from harm. That is a natural inclination. That is not social indoctrination. That is not an inherently negative feeling. Homophobia is. There are zero reasons, literally zero quantifiable reasons, to view two adult men kissing the same way you view someone under 21 fucking an 80 year old. Projective disgust is ultimately a moral and conceptual disgust that develops into a physical, emotional and instinctual disgust. In general, people find it wrong for a 20 year old to fuck an 80 year old because what their minds jump to is "the 80 year old is taking advantage of this kid"..........."the 20 year old is only in it for the perks".........."that 80 year old is old enough to be the kid's grandfather"........."how does the 80 year old have sex".

What are those feelings regarding homosexuality? What similar questions, similar skepticism, would a person have towards being gay? What creates that moral negativity against homosexuality?

Society.

Yes, some or even most of the people disgusted by specific sexual acts also have latent prejudices as well, but the two are not mutually inclusive.

True. But there are no quantifiable reasons to feel such extreme negativity towards homosexuality. Not even discussing logical reasons, legitimate reasons, for this negativity, but actual reasons with any sort of fiber. There are NONE.

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

He doesn't like tomatoes because he doesn't like the texture. That's a valid reason not to like tomatoes. You think of tomatoes and you think of tomatoes you've eaten and gotten sick from. Your mind and body then protects you from tomatoes. You avoid eating them, discussing them. You hate watching people eat them. That's your mind and body doing it's job in reading what you don't like and operating in turn.

What exact reason does a person have in not liking homosexuality? Being straight isn't a reason..........we have many people here saying they have no issue with homosexuality. Or same-sex kissing. Religion isn't simply a reason............plenty of religious gays and straight allies who are religious. It's not procreation because for as much as Abomination wants to throw out the "gays can't have babies" card, homosexuality does not threaten heterosexual reproduction in any way.

Like you said, it's irrational. The problem is that this is an irrational attitude that has a direct impact in harming others, and it is an irrational attitude that is socially-conditioned and can be changed. And because it's a negative attitude that harms both individuals and society at large, it should be changed.

Whenever I see a long strand of hair on my person, I flip the fuck out until it is removed. I remove any long strands that I see, even pulling them off of the clothes of people I'm with, just to get them away. A small clump of knotted hair, especially when it is made of long strands, makes me gag just thinking about it. There's no reason for this. I KNOW there's no reason for this. But my gag reflex does not give a shit about rationality.

Hair isn't a human being and not liking a long strand of hair on a person isn't actively harming that persons' (the person with the hair on their clothes) ability to live their live as they see fit without discrimination and consternation.

Quit generalizing. It makes you look, well, incredibly intolerant.

I am intolerant of homophobia. I will always be intolerant of homophobia. I will always be intolerant towards those who lack tolerance themselves against gay people. Intolerance doesn't receive tolerance. That's not what tolerance entails.

 

[101flyboy]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

Internalized homophobia doesn't=homophobic. Slight discomfort doesn't necessarily=internalized homophobia. It's a case by case by case basis. Some people just lack exposure. Some just don't like PDA and are a little prudish. It's really up to individuals themselves to decide whether their biases are rooted in internalized homophobia or not.

 

[FolkLikePanda]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

Internalized homophobia doesn't=homophobic. Slight discomfort doesn't necessarily=internalized homophobia. It's a case by case by case basis. Some people just lack exposure. Some just don't like PDA and are a little prudish. It's really up to individuals themselves to decide whether their biases are rooted in internalized homophobia or not.

Whats PDA?

And isn't internalized homophobia when a gay person hates other gay people for being gay because they don't like being gay?

 

[101flyboy]

I dunno. I kind of figured homophobia was a sexuality issue.

Kissing is a sexual issue? I don't think so.

It's impossible not to allow socially-constructed biases enter your mind. It's called cultural relativity.

However, it IS impossible for homosexuality to be NORMAL behavior.

Let me explain.

100% homosexuality can never be the norm because, regardless of if our sexuality is genetic or environmental, the majority of humanity has an inner urge to procreate. The amount of people having sex exclusively with the same gender will NEVER hit even a quarter of the amount of people who have sex with the other gender from time to time.

It's not a bad thing to be abnormal, but being gay is abnormal. Everyone is weird for some reason, it's not the end of the world.

1. No accredited organization that delves in the matter of sexuality believes homosexuality to be abnormal. Or a birth defect. And this in fact hasn't been considered a serious viewpoint for 40 years.

2. Not the norm doesn't=abnormal. You're right, 100% homosexuality will never be the norm. That doesn't make it abnormal.

3. Sex is not solely to procreate and procreation isn't a top 15 reason why people engage in sexual intercourse.

4. You can procreate without having sex. You can procreate without being straight.

Even the largely bisexual Roman culture had WAY more straights and bisexuals than homosexuals.

Bisexuality includes homosexuality. In fact, bonobos are the animal closest to humans biologically. And they are 90% bisexual. Sexuality is a continuum, and most people are not 100% straight. Homosexuality in itself is very normal.

In other words, you're just making people out to seem bad, when in fact, they are doing the best they can.

No, they actually are not. But since you think it's OK to be homophobic, there is no point in debating that point. It is not natural to be homophobic yet you seem to believe it is, although you clearly DO NOT have any peer reviewed study out there you've developed that can in any way prove your theory fact.

Both of us are enlightened to how socially-constructed biases affect our lives, but you need to allow people to be ignorant so long as they aren't bigoted.

No, I do not "need to allow" people to be ignorant. Ignorance begets bigotry. Without ignorance, the bigotry wouldn't exist. So to eliminate the bigotry, you need to eliminate the ignorance and replace it with awareness and education. That's the only reason why homophobia has died down in US society. Not by allowing homophobes be homophobic and giving them a free pass.

 

[chadachada123]

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

He doesn't like tomatoes because he doesn't like the texture. That's a valid reason not to like tomatoes. You think of tomatoes and you think of tomatoes you've eaten and gotten sick from. Your mind and body then protects you from tomatoes. You avoid eating them, discussing them. You hate watching people eat them. That's your mind and body doing it's job in reading what you don't like and operating in turn.

What exact reason does a person have in not liking homosexuality? Being straight isn't a reason..........we have many people here saying they have no issue with homosexuality. Or same-sex kissing. Religion isn't simply a reason............plenty of religious gays and straight allies who are religious. It's not procreation because for as much as Abomination wants to throw out the "gays can't have babies" card, homosexuality does not threaten heterosexual reproduction in any way.

Like you said, it's irrational. The problem is that this is an irrational attitude that has a direct impact in harming others, and it is an irrational attitude that is socially-conditioned and can be changed. And because it's a negative attitude that harms both individuals and society at large, it should be changed.

You haven't described a functional difference between the tomato example and homosexuality. Religion has nothing to do with this.

I dislike the taste of tomatoes: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing others eating tomatoes.

I dislike making out with men: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing men making out with other men.

The disgust at touching another man may be irrational or without reason, but, again, hair example. If I can be randomly disgusted by strings of keratin, I can easily foresee people being squeamish about a demographic they aren't attracted to fooling around in front of them. That some people will ALWAYS be grossed out by the thought of you touching them says nothing about their character, since the reaction is, and I feel this doesn't need any more repeating, irrational.

That some people allow their uncontrollable urges/reactions/gut-instincts control their behavior is not an argument against the urges, but an argument against not knowing yourself and your own biases.

This is no different from a lesbian feeling feelings of disgust at the thought of making out with a man (and I have spoken with several women that do).

 

[101flyboy]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

Internalized homophobia doesn't=homophobic. Slight discomfort doesn't necessarily=internalized homophobia. It's a case by case by case basis. Some people just lack exposure. Some just don't like PDA and are a little prudish. It's really up to individuals themselves to decide whether their biases are rooted in internalized homophobia or not.

Whats PDA?

And isn't internalized homophobia when a gay person hates other gay people for being gay because they don't like being gay?

PDA=public displays of affection.

Internalized homophobia could come from many different sources. The closet case theory has been proven fact, and at the very least a very large amount of individuals who are homophobic are gay. But it's not all. Many people are simply indoctrinated into homophobia. Some are threatened by things that are outside of their worldview that they don't understand. Reasons vary.

 

[JudgeGame]

Is it homophobic to feel a bit uneasy when two dudes kiss but support things like gay marriage and enjoy seeing two girls kiss?

It's a deeply ingrained form of homophobia but homophobia nonetheless. You might feel better knowing that you aren't homophobic by choice but because someone told you you had to be. However, it is your choice if you want to accept this or challenge what you were taught and find the truth for yourself.

 

[JudgeGame]

While we're at it, if you feel uneasy seeing black people make out or imagining having sex with a black person, that's racism.

 

[Seydaman]

Yes, you're homophobic. What matters however is how you react to that, I have a phobia of spiders and dark water, but I don't go around asking for the murder of all spiders, and lights in all deep pools. If you're not going around running up to gay people and shouting
"STOOOOPPPPPP"
Then whatever, however, there are a lot of treatments to deal with phobias, if you have a therapist you should talk to them about it, or your regular doctor/care provider.

 

[101flyboy]

Even if he had earlier said that homosexuality is unnatural or whatever other illogical things he said, this post by itself does a great job explaining the mindset, and how, so long as the person recognizes that it is irrational, there is no issue, as it is just that: IRRATIONAL.

He doesn't like tomatoes because he doesn't like the texture. That's a valid reason not to like tomatoes. You think of tomatoes and you think of tomatoes you've eaten and gotten sick from. Your mind and body then protects you from tomatoes. You avoid eating them, discussing them. You hate watching people eat them. That's your mind and body doing it's job in reading what you don't like and operating in turn.

What exact reason does a person have in not liking homosexuality? Being straight isn't a reason..........we have many people here saying they have no issue with homosexuality. Or same-sex kissing. Religion isn't simply a reason............plenty of religious gays and straight allies who are religious. It's not procreation because for as much as Abomination wants to throw out the "gays can't have babies" card, homosexuality does not threaten heterosexual reproduction in any way.

Like you said, it's irrational. The problem is that this is an irrational attitude that has a direct impact in harming others, and it is an irrational attitude that is socially-conditioned and can be changed. And because it's a negative attitude that harms both individuals and society at large, it should be changed.

You haven't described a functional difference between the tomato example and homosexuality. Religion has nothing to do with this.

I dislike the taste of tomatoes: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing others eating tomatoes.

I dislike making out with men: Uncontrollable feeling of disgust when seeing men making out with other men.

The disgust at touching another man may be irrational or without reason, but, again, hair example. If I can be randomly disgusted by strings of keratin, I can easily foresee people being squeamish about a demographic they aren't attracted to fooling around in front of them. That some people will ALWAYS be grossed out by the thought of you touching them says nothing about their character, since the reaction is, and I feel this doesn't need any more repeating, irrational.

That some people allow their uncontrollable urges/reactions/gut-instincts control their behavior is not an argument against the urges, but an argument against not knowing yourself and your own biases.

This is no different from a lesbian feeling feelings of disgust at the thought of making out with a man (and I have spoken with several women that do).

I dislike making out with men? Yet, Abomination has I'm guessing never made out with a man. Yet he has eaten a tomato and he didn't like it. So the two are still not comparable. Add onto the fact not all men are the same. A man with a beard is different than a man clean shaven. A 40 year old man isn't a 20 year old man. There are more versions of "man" than there are of "tomato".

We're also not discussing the idea of a person THEMSELVES making out with someone of the gender they are not attracted to. That isn't in question. What's in question is the idea that finding two people showing basic affection, not even making out, but simple kissing, hugging up to your partner, hand holding, disgusting. We're discussing innocent affection. And that people turn innocent affection into a sexual come-on.

The urges themselves are as you said, irrational, but unlike other urges, there is no fundamental reason to hold this particular urge. I still haven't heard a reason. There doesn't have to be a reason, and I know there is NOT one, but that's the point. No-one has a reason, and it's irrational completely, but also not natural. Repressing said biases effectively renders them null. A person with a bias is a person who openly believes in whatever socially-constructed bullshit they've allowed damage their psyche. People who actively repress said bias are not biased. It's dormant. The bias may be inside of them but it's not alive.

 

[Silvanus]

Discomfort due to lack of exposure is fine. That's not the fault of the individual, it's the fault of society and history.

I chose to share a room with one of my close friends at Uni. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I had a boyfriend at the time. He said a year or two later that he had felt slightly uncomfortable at first, but after about a week, he realized he didn't anymore. It was simply lack of exposure.



He wasn't homophobic, because he reacted to it with maturity and it didn't bother him one iota after a few days.

What IS homophobic, on the other hand, is people who have this immediate negative reaction, and then act like that's a fine way to carry on. People who say, 'I can't help it, it makes me sick'. That's not okay. It takes only a modicum of maturity to recognize that your reaction is illogical. Don't be proud of your instinctual discomfort. Recognize it for what it is, and overcome it for the sake of the respect you owe to people.