What?s Wrong with Mass Effect 2?

[Agayek]

You've never read one of the Jokers comic books have you? He tried that, and Batman escaped. They did the exact equivilant of that to Sheperd - they sent their gigantic fuck-off aerial weapons after him, and the guy took them out too. Like I said, Sheperd is that awesome.

I haven't read any Batman comics, you're right. And I don't particularly care to. The fact of the matter is, in all of those similar scenarios that I've read, it's almost always either the antagonists being stupid/incompetent or the protagonist getting incredibly lucky or having some form of deus ex machina.

Bane crippled Batman and he got out of that. Try to inform yourself occasionally.

Hence deus ex machina. You do not "get out" of being crippled. Anything that does so is automatically deus ex machina.

1. It tells you of the nature of the enemy they're fighting - what the Reapers are capable of and what their intentions are. It also tells them how to fight the threat off.

2. They didn't know that, but it was their one and only lead. Besides, they had EDI - if it could be read, EDI could read it.

3. What the hell does that even mean?

1) We already knew that. It was all explained in ME1, along with what awaits humanity, both by Virgil and the existence of the Husks.

2) I'm not sure what EDI has to do with it, but alright.

3) It means there was 1 Collector ship. Meaning there was only one ship going in or out of the system. There is no need for multiple IFFs, especially not in a multi-million year old Reaper corpse.

1. Yes, FOR NOW. They are hinking long term here, a thing both you and Shamus seem very very bad at. The Reapers will use the relays to come through.

2. No, telling them not to come through THAT WAY is not the ssame as not comign back period.

Look, here's how it works. The Reapers will stop at nothing to wipe out all life in the galaxy. STOP. AT. NOTHING. However, the Relay adds a degree of predictability - we know their most likely point of attack. If we destroy this, they will fall back, develop a new means of transport and we have lost the predictability - hell, the only reason they didn't destroy the Relay themselves is cause they didn't realise Shepard had the means to use it.

1) Problem: There is one, und precisely one, way in or out of the system containing the Collector base. That is the Omega-4 Relay. The Reapers couldn't come out through it without already being there. The only valid way a Reaper could come through would be if they finished building one. If they locked off the other side of the Relay, there would be no way for them to finish building said Reaper.

2) Yes, and the Reapers are coming from Darkspace off the edge of the galaxy. The Collectors, on the other hand, are an organic species locked inside the center of the galaxy. Even if they could navigate at sub-light speeds out of their hole, they'd all run out of resources and starve to death before they reached the nearest known inhabited system.

You mean like you did when you said without qualification of any description at all that KOTOR is better than Mass Effect 2.

You'll notice I brought something other than my own opinion. You used faulty logic to dismiss the accumulated opinion, instead insisting that Baldurs Gate 2 is better because....no reason at all given.

Yes, it's my opinion that Baldur's Gate 2 is better. I didn't bother supplying facts because there is no possible way to quantify it. Deciding the "best" in an artistic medium is an almost purely subjective matter. There is simply no way to reliably quantify an opinion over everyone. Thus "best" will always be a non-quantifiable metric. "Best Reviewed" and you'd have something, there's no way to argue that, but flat out "Best" is purely subjective.


Edit: I just realized something else as well, on the subject of IFFs. What the fuck is the IFF supposed to do? IFF stands for Identify Friend/Foe, and it's supposed to be used to signal friendlies vs enemies on radar and whatnot. If that's the case, why the fuck did the Collector's attack when you're using a friendly IFF?

 

[Bayushi_Kouya]

I expect my video game plots to have some holes in them. I expect my movies to have some holes in them. Nature of the beast.

What I dislike is when the holes are gigantic gaping tears in reality that stick in my craw to the point where I can't focus on the rest of experience.

More than anything, what bothers me is the inconsistency of ME. I was psyched to hear I'd be going to Tuchanka to glad-hand Wrex and see what he's been doing as Padishah Emperor of the Krogan. I was a little upset to learn it was backhanding the canon.

Mordin/EDI explains to us that the genophage alters krogan fertility rates. Every other source of info about the genophage in the games (read: the krogan themselves), seem to think that the genophage randomly ends the fertility of 99.999% of the females of their race. Are the krogan just stupid? Is Wrex's propaganda network that tight? The krogan and the rest of the galaxy seem to have two different sets of info about how the genophage works, and it is NEVER ADDRESSED. That could be time constraints, but it could also be poor editing. Given the general daffyness of the rest of ME2, I'm much more inclined to think the latter.

Why is Subject Zero portrayed as aunstoppable face-wrecking badass when she's more of a squishy wizard in gameplay? Why is no one other than Mordin doing anything on the ship until you come over and poke them for conversation? Why does Garrus, a deeply loved character, have the shortest dialogue tree?

I don't think EA is responsible for these changes per se, but I would be upset if they didn't lift a finger to stop them. ME2 could've been great. Now it's just good.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Because adding in an organization like such would be a blatant shoehorning of the universe with another vague organization like Cerberus that wouldn't really have any point to being there save to.. ehm, fill Mass Effect 2's plot? What is worse? Shoehorning and screwing around with established canon, or using material already there in established canon, and have you make morally ambiguous choices that you can't determine to be truly good or bad for the universe itself without the events of Mass Effect 3 coming into the picture later on?

Its a good thing the ME universe already has another pro-human organization all ready to go. Terra Firma. Just do a quick find and replace through the script change Cerberus into Terra Firma and we're good to go. Making it Terra Firma instead of Cerberus solves about 50% of the major plot holes in the game, there are still some issues like the mission to nowhere but one little change would do a lot.

True, though another reason why Cerberus was chosen was to give you the player, as well as Shepard through you a chance to visit the Terminus Systems (where Cerberus operates frequently) and explore another part of the Mass Effect universe. Joining Terra Firma would have had you still stuck upon the Citadel and Alliance Space like you were in Mass Effect 1, leaving you and Shepard without an opportunity to really explore beyond Alliance space.

While a few minor plot holes may have been filled otherwise, it would have deprived the player of the chance to really get involved and see more of the Mass Effect universe beyond the systems that the Citadel Council remains dominant over.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Edit: I just realized something else as well, on the subject of IFFs. What the fuck is the IFF supposed to do? IFF stands for Identify Friend/Foe, and it's supposed to be used to signal friendlies vs enemies on radar and whatnot. If that's the case, why the fuck did the Collector's attack when you're using a friendly IFF?

Just to center in on this point, I'll allow the others to take apart the rest..

Essentially, the Reaper IFF that you took from the Derelict Reaper was infested with an unknown Reaper-made virus that EDI and Joker don't pick up until after it has already infected the Normandy, which is why EDI disables the IFF after a few moments of the signal transmission, which was enough for the Collectors to get an idea of where the signal was being sent from. What they thought was an "Identify Friendly" signal at first turned out basically to be a "SHEPARD (Or his ship) IS HERE, COLLECTORS!" beacon due to the incursion of the dormant virus that within the program.

 

[Indecipherable]

I read the first paragraph where he said that the death of Shepherd was an inept way of writing a story and then made no justification to his claims, realised he's a bad writer, and went elsewhere. The end.

 

[Agayek]

Just to center in on this point, I'll allow the others to take apart the rest..

Essentially, the Reaper IFF that you took from the Derelict Reaper was infested with an unknown Reaper-made virus that EDI and Joker don't pick up until after it has already infected the Normandy, which is why EDI disables the IFF after a few moments of the signal transmission, which was enough for the Collectors to get an idea of where the signal was being sent from. What they thought was an "Identify Friendly" signal at first turned out basically to be a "SHEPARD (Or his ship) IS HERE, COLLECTORS!" beacon due to the incursion of the dormant virus that within the program.

That part I understand.

The question I'm asking is why the stupid thing was necessary to get through the relay.

 

[violent_quiche]

Their trap depends on Shepard being an idiot and personally boarding their vessel, instead of blasting the ship at a distance or sending in a team of subordinates.

Quite right. It would have been far more realistic to have Shepard hunched over a console for 20 minutes while Grunt, Garrus and Jack described what they were seeing in radio despatches. Or maybe if they had just blown up the Omega 4 relay or parked a massive force within firing distance waiting for the collectors to mosey on through, we might have been relieved of all that tedious "pass though the relay and fight your way through the Collector base" nonsense.

Or maybe these decisions were simply concessions between telling a consistent story vs crafting interesting gameplay. The story was weak but the characters were strong, the combat was fun and I still played the hell out of it so I guess it wasn't a TOTAL failure. If ME3 captures the story of 1 and the mechanics of 2, it will kill. If not...it just be fun instead. I can live with that.

 

[SillyBear]

I mean, honestly, you're pissed because Shepard didn't whip out his/her phone and take a snapshot of the Reaper?

Yes, I was, actually.

I don't know what the hell happens in the future, but taking pictures of military objectives, enemies and logistics is extremely common place. Every single mission carried out in today's combat involves heavy photography, both before and afterwards. It is a fantastic way to relay information and gather evidence for crimes/events that have occurred. Everyone from the Russian Spetsnaz to the US Marines do this.

And yet in the future no one does? With all the upgraded tech, they don't do it? Immersion wall hit. Big time. Especially considering this is huge military information - it wrecks of nonsense.

I agree it might seem a little nitpicky, but it really did annoy me because of the lack of common sense. And considering the tension between the council and Shepard is one of the key themes in the series, and it would all be avoided if he brought a fucking disposable camera, this just smacked me straight into a brick wall and I hated it. The first thing any military does when they discover something - whether it be the concentration camps in the 40s or new weapon tech or illegal activity - is take a shit load of pictures. I dunno, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Just to center in on this point, I'll allow the others to take apart the rest..

Essentially, the Reaper IFF that you took from the Derelict Reaper was infested with an unknown Reaper-made virus that EDI and Joker don't pick up until after it has already infected the Normandy, which is why EDI disables the IFF after a few moments of the signal transmission, which was enough for the Collectors to get an idea of where the signal was being sent from. What they thought was an "Identify Friendly" signal at first turned out basically to be a "SHEPARD (Or his ship) IS HERE, COLLECTORS!" beacon due to the incursion of the dormant virus that within the program.

That part I understand.

The question I'm asking is why the stupid thing was necessary to get through the relay.

Because Mass Effect relays operate like doors in reality with a key code slot to open them. A ship has to provide the right codes for the relay to activate (door to open), and considering the fact that the Reapers built the relays, the Reaper IFF is needed to actually activate the Omega 4 Relay as the Council nor the Alliance nor the Terminus races have been able to control it/open it like the others you use consistently. Not that they would really want to anyways, as they would run into the Core of the Galaxy and likely get destroyed like all the other ships you see in the cutscene without a pilot competent enough like Joker is.

The only reason that the Collectors can use the Omega 4 Relay, is because the Reapers still essentially control it, and the Collector ships are all outfitted with a Reaper IFF. By using the IFF, the Normandy essentially registered as a Reaper (or another Collector ship) from the signal it was using, until the Collector drones spotted it and figured out otherwise, that is.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

-Snip-

Still wouldn't have made a difference either way. As far as the Council wants to be concerned, you'd just be showing them the image of what they perceive to be as a large Geth ship. The term "Reaper" to them is simply a menacing myth that Saren used to propagandize the Geth into following him in some sort of "Grand Plan" (taking over the Citadel, for instance). Fuck, they even have pieces of Sovereign's wreckage and they still consider it a Geth creation.

Honestly, it'd probably take a Reaper like Harbringer himself to actually converse with the Council to alleviate all doubt that the Reaper ships aren't just a Geth creation, but something much more.

 

[AudioBob24]

I would bring up two items that I feel have been overridden by the debate of "hey is that a plot hole?"

1) those of you who state how much you hate ME2, DA2, and anything with an EA sticker. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS. It is not to say I hate these things, it is to say that if the company is failing to provide you with a product you want then you DO NOT GO PRE ORDER the follow up. This is why final fantasy continues to get worse in my opinion, because despite all the naysaying a good chunk of those naysayers keep putting money in Square's wallet. Rather then writitng about how crappy it might be and then devaluing your opinion by lining up like a drone, try some follow through! In the end, either Mass effect 3 will be a good game or a bad one, based on the perspective you are entitled to have! If you feel it doomed don't bother.

2) more importantly, I feel thus far that most people are forgetting something that ME3 will need to be a good game. It does not need to be "like mass effect 1 or mass effect 2" it needs; as with any good sequal, to have its own unique elements and while following the story and gameplay themes or 1 and 2 it needs to effectively function as an end of the hero's journey. We may not like some of the changes or we may love it, but either way it at least becomes memorable. My worst fear is that the writers and gameplay developers revert to all previous tools and thus bring nothing new to the table.

I do not mean to troll the rest of the people here but I did feel that ME3 is being picked apart before it can even be released.

 

[SillyBear]

-Snip-

Still wouldn't have made a difference either way. As far as the Council wants to be concerned, you'd just be showing them the image of what they perceive to be as a large Geth ship. The term "Reaper" to them is simply a menacing myth that Saren used to propagandize the Geth into following him in some sort of "Grand Plan" (taking over the Citadel, for instance). Fuck, they even have pieces of Sovereign's wreckage and they still consider it a Geth creation.

Honestly, it'd probably take a Reaper like Harbringer himself to actually converse with the Council to alleviate all doubt that the Reaper ships aren't just a Geth creation, but something much more.

Throughout both games, Shepard has encountered many cases of hard evidence of a reaper invasion. He has talked to a Prothean AI - no evidence. He has spoken to both Harbinger and Sovereign - no evidence. He has uncovered many, many Reaper activity and hasn't once decided to film or photograph any of it.

Just the whole fact of that, is ridiculous. That would never happen in reality - and I understand Mass Effect isn't reality, but it was a really big immersion breaker for me and yes, it pissed me off because it somewhat ruined a little piece of one of my favourite games.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

-Snip-

Still wouldn't have made a difference either way. As far as the Council wants to be concerned, you'd just be showing them the image of what they perceive to be as a large Geth ship. The term "Reaper" to them is simply a menacing myth that Saren used to propagandize the Geth into following him in some sort of "Grand Plan" (taking over the Citadel, for instance). Fuck, they even have pieces of Sovereign's wreckage and they still consider it a Geth creation.

Honestly, it'd probably take a Reaper like Harbringer himself to actually converse with the Council to alleviate all doubt that the Reaper ships aren't just a Geth creation, but something much more.

Throughout both games, Shepard has encountered many cases of hard evidence of a reaper invasion. He has talked to a Prothean AI - no evidence. He has spoken to both Harbinger and Sovereign - no evidence. He has uncovered many, many Reaper activity and hasn't once decided to film or photograph any of it.

Just the whole fact of that, is ridiculous. That would never happen in reality - and I understand Mass Effect isn't reality, but it was a really big immersion breaker for me and yes, it pissed me off because it somewhat ruined a little piece of one of my favourite games.

Doesn't matter. The point still is, no matter how much evidence Shepard brings in, no one is going to be convinced the Reapers are anything but Geth creations until something really punishing happens. For example, like I said, Harbringer speaking towards the Council, or even a Geth army fighting the Reapers might just break them out of denial.

 

[Indecipherable]

-Snip-

Still wouldn't have made a difference either way. As far as the Council wants to be concerned, you'd just be showing them the image of what they perceive to be as a large Geth ship. The term "Reaper" to them is simply a menacing myth that Saren used to propagandize the Geth into following him in some sort of "Grand Plan" (taking over the Citadel, for instance). Fuck, they even have pieces of Sovereign's wreckage and they still consider it a Geth creation.

Honestly, it'd probably take a Reaper like Harbringer himself to actually converse with the Council to alleviate all doubt that the Reaper ships aren't just a Geth creation, but something much more.

Throughout both games, Shepard has encountered many cases of hard evidence of a reaper invasion. He has talked to a Prothean AI - no evidence. He has spoken to both Harbinger and Sovereign - no evidence. He has uncovered many, many Reaper activity and hasn't once decided to film or photograph any of it.

Just the whole fact of that, is ridiculous. That would never happen in reality - and I understand Mass Effect isn't reality, but it was a really big immersion breaker for me and yes, it pissed me off because it somewhat ruined a little piece of one of my favourite games.

Pretty much agreed 100% on all of your points.

 

[SillyBear]

-Snip-

Still wouldn't have made a difference either way. As far as the Council wants to be concerned, you'd just be showing them the image of what they perceive to be as a large Geth ship. The term "Reaper" to them is simply a menacing myth that Saren used to propagandize the Geth into following him in some sort of "Grand Plan" (taking over the Citadel, for instance). Fuck, they even have pieces of Sovereign's wreckage and they still consider it a Geth creation.

Honestly, it'd probably take a Reaper like Harbringer himself to actually converse with the Council to alleviate all doubt that the Reaper ships aren't just a Geth creation, but something much more.

Throughout both games, Shepard has encountered many cases of hard evidence of a reaper invasion. He has talked to a Prothean AI - no evidence. He has spoken to both Harbinger and Sovereign - no evidence. He has uncovered many, many Reaper activity and hasn't once decided to film or photograph any of it.

Just the whole fact of that, is ridiculous. That would never happen in reality - and I understand Mass Effect isn't reality, but it was a really big immersion breaker for me and yes, it pissed me off because it somewhat ruined a little piece of one of my favourite games.

Doesn't matter. The point still is, no matter how much evidence Shepard brings in, no one is going to be convinced the Reapers are anything but Geth creations until something really punishing happens. For example, like I said, Harbringer speaking towards the Council, or even a Geth army fighting the Reapers might just break them out of denial.

No, it does matter, because you are only assuming it doesn't. And that is my whole problem with this. No attempt was ever made to provide proof - and the council even mention that all they have to go on is Shepard's word. They haven't encountered any piece of real evidence yet.

And it "not mattering" isn't the point. My problem is that no one even thought to provide evidence. It's ludicrous, because that is so far from what would actually happen it really hit me in the face.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I have got to ask if some of this is not reconstructive memory in favor of your arguement, S'.
Quite a few things are neatly explained away in ME2, as one other postered noted with EDI hacking the ship stopping it from just BLASTING OFF AGAIN(!!!!) with Shep' on board.

The only thing that really bothers me is the idea of The Alliance floating around like idiots, even though in the first game they seemed to be very effective.

 

[Agayek]

The only reason that the Collectors can use the Omega 4 Relay, is because the Reapers still essentially control it, and the Collector ships are all outfitted with a Reaper IFF. By using the IFF, the Normandy essentially registered as a Reaper (or another Collector ship) from the signal it was using, until the Collector drones spotted it and figured out otherwise, that is.

The bolded bit is the part I'm trying to figure out. The Normandy registered as a Reaper. Why the fuck would they attack it?

And if you say "they looked out a window" I will slap you through the internet.

 

[fierydemise]

True, though another reason why Cerberus was chosen was to give you the player, as well as Shepard through you a chance to visit the Terminus Systems (where Cerberus operates frequently) and explore another part of the Mass Effect universe. Joining Terra Firma would have had you still stuck upon the Citadel and Alliance Space like you were in Mass Effect 1, leaving you and Shepard without an opportunity to really explore beyond Alliance space.

While a few minor plot holes may have been filled otherwise, it would have deprived the player of the chance to really get involved and see more of the Mass Effect universe beyond the systems that the Citadel Council remains dominant over.

Not inherently I don't think. Every line of argument about why Cerberus could potentially be involved in the Terminus could also explain the involvement of Terra Firma. I may be misremembering but I don't think there is any real reason why Cerberus has to operate out of the Terminus Systems. Additionally after ME1 Terra Firma was pretty poorly fleshed out, all we knew was they were a political party that opposed intermixing of species. You easily could have written Terra Firma to be like Sinn Féin, a political party affiliated with a para-military/terrorist group who presumably would operate out of the Terminus systems because they are lawless. Alternatively Terra Firma could be interested in why human colonies in the Terminus Systems are disappearing and send Shepard to investigate.

Overall I don't think coming out of ME1 Cerberus offers any obvious advantages to Terra Firma as an organization to back Shepard. Most of the defining of what Cerberus is came from the books and ME2, for the most part a quick find and replace on both of those plus a couple sentences explaining why a political party has a paramilitary wing (not at all unheard of even in modern history) and things are good to go.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

The only reason that the Collectors can use the Omega 4 Relay, is because the Reapers still essentially control it, and the Collector ships are all outfitted with a Reaper IFF. By using the IFF, the Normandy essentially registered as a Reaper (or another Collector ship) from the signal it was using, until the Collector drones spotted it and figured out otherwise, that is.

The bolded bit is the part I'm trying to figure out. The Normandy registered as a Reaper. Why the fuck would they attack it?

And if you say "they looked out a window" I will slap you through the internet.

It registered as a Reaper to the Omega 4 Relay, which was necessary for the Normandy to even be able to traverse it. The drones that attack the Normandy in the first place after it clears the debris field are not affected by the IFF. Essentially speaking, they are the "guard dogs" that will attack anything that breaches the perimeter near the base on sight, save a Collector ship. Which the Normandy did.

After all, the Collectors built the things.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

True, though another reason why Cerberus was chosen was to give you the player, as well as Shepard through you a chance to visit the Terminus Systems (where Cerberus operates frequently) and explore another part of the Mass Effect universe. Joining Terra Firma would have had you still stuck upon the Citadel and Alliance Space like you were in Mass Effect 1, leaving you and Shepard without an opportunity to really explore beyond Alliance space.

While a few minor plot holes may have been filled otherwise, it would have deprived the player of the chance to really get involved and see more of the Mass Effect universe beyond the systems that the Citadel Council remains dominant over.

Not inherently I don't think. Every line of argument about why Cerberus could potentially be involved in the Terminus could also explain the involvement of Terra Firma. I may be misremembering but I don't think there is any real reason why Cerberus has to operate out of the Terminus Systems. Additionally after ME1 Terra Firma was pretty poorly fleshed out, all we knew was they were a political party that opposed intermixing of species. You easily could have written Terra Firma to be like Sinn Féin, a political party affiliated with a para-military/terrorist group who presumably would operate out of the Terminus systems because they are lawless. Alternatively Terra Firma could be interested in why human colonies in the Terminus Systems are disappearing and send Shepard to investigate.

Overall I don't think coming out of ME1 Cerberus offers any obvious advantages to Terra Firma as an organization to back Shepard. Most of the defining of what Cerberus is came from the books and ME2, for the most part a quick find and replace on both of those plus a couple sentences explaining why a political party has a paramilitary wing (not at all unheard of even in modern history) and things are good to go.

Potentially, it could have worked, yes. But, whatever. Same basic kind of organization, just one of them was used over the other. I can't explain much beyond that, considering I'm not a Bioware dev that worked on the game, mind you.