What?s Wrong with Mass Effect 2?

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The.Bard

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honestdiscussioner said:
Shamus, I have to say that was one of the worst critiques I've read, on anything gaming related. Ever.

Most of your issues were legitimately explained in ME2, or are just plain wrong/ill thought out.

...
[snippy snip of the many excellent retorts to Shamus' questionable points]
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude, come here and give me a hug! A great big hug! I'm glad I'm not the only one who dislikes incomplete story critiques on this great big crazy internet of ours!

I will feed your fish the next time you're out on a mission!
 

aesondaandryk

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Sorry but putting Mass Effect in the title of the post seemed like a cry for attention to a poor article. Please write something constructive.
 

Nimcha

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Shamus Young said:
It's cool if you don't need stories that make sense or characters with discernable motivation. But, you know, some of us DO. And we're no longer getting it.
See, this is my problem with this. Writing it like this makes it seem you find yourself and this 'we' you are referring to, whoever that may be, superior to other people. People who may care less about railroading and are better at filling in the gaps with their own mind in stead of just pointing them out and being annoyed by them.

For me personally I just see the ME games as Shepard's story which you play through. A lot is already set in stone, you're playing in retrospect and you can change a whole lot of details along the way. In short, this is how it all went down, but the specifics are up to you. That's the way I view this game, and it has provided me with the best entertainment of any game I've ever played.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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SillyBear said:
Sparrow said:
I mean, honestly, you're pissed because Shepard didn't whip out his/her phone and take a snapshot of the Reaper?
Yes, I was, actually.

I don't know what the hell happens in the future, but taking pictures of military objectives, enemies and logistics is extremely common place. Every single mission carried out in today's combat involves heavy photography, both before and afterwards. It is a fantastic way to relay information and gather evidence for crimes/events that have occurred. Everyone from the Russian Spetsnaz to the US Marines do this.

And yet in the future no one does? With all the upgraded tech, they don't do it? Immersion wall hit. Big time. Especially considering this is huge military information - it wrecks of nonsense.

I agree it might seem a little nitpicky, but it really did annoy me because of the lack of common sense. And considering the tension between the council and Shepard is one of the key themes in the series, and it would all be avoided if he brought a fucking disposable camera, this just smacked me straight into a brick wall and I hated it. The first thing any military does when they discover something - whether it be the concentration camps in the 40s or new weapon tech or illegal activity - is take a shit load of pictures. I dunno, it just doesn't make any sense.
I agree emphatically. It's one thing for the Council to question where the hell I was for two odd years. Fair question, I'm curious about that myself. Why don't we ask the two Cerberus operatives I have with me? It is however another for the Council to ignore a potential threat that things like Sovereign represent when I come back and say "There's more of these damned things you know". That was pants on head retarded; but I'd have accepted it had I been able to do the following:

Engage with each council member privately with my team member of their respective race; helping me get my point across using the right cultural reasoning.

OR

What I like to call the 'missing third option'. At the end of the game, my choices shouldn't have been "Give the highly advanced tech to the known terrorist organisation with delusions of grandeur and a hard-on for xenophobia" or "Blow up this potentially paradigm shifting and life changing technological marvel out of a case of honour before reason AND spite"

Why can't I say to the Illusive Man, "Fuck you buddy" and then get on the horn to Admiral Hackett and be all "I have got some totally hot shit dude, come check it out"

Wham. Proof, vindication, advantage and acceptance back into my former command structure all in one fell swoop. For those who say 'What of the Cerberus folk in your ship?' I say "Fuck 'em, that's what happens when you sign up with terrorists"
 

Souplex

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Also; a really big plot hole throughout the series: It's been established that Asari can read minds.
Circumstantial evidence is valid.
 

Duskflamer

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Agayek said:
1) Problem: There is one, und precisely one, way in or out of the system containing the Collector base. That is the Omega-4 Relay.
Question: How did the Omega-4 relay get built if it's the only way between the two points it connects? Presumably there are other, far more treacherous, paths between those two points and the relay only serves to make a safer trip. But if I'm understanding the way relays work (Relay built in point A connects to relay built in point B), you'd have to have another way to get to points A and B to build the relays before you can use them.
 

Duskflamer

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Souplex said:
Also; a really big plot hole throughout the series: It's been established that Asari can read minds.
Circumstantial evidence is valid.
If this is in reference to Shepard trying to prove the existence of the reapers, I think I remember the Turian council member saying that he thinks Shepard has become obsessed to the point of truly believing in them. In other words, he thinks that mind-reading Shep while he says "Reapers are real" would come up as true not because it actually is true (which it is), but because Shep truly and honestly believes that it's true, despite it not being true.
 

Agayek

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Duskflamer said:
Question: How did the Omega-4 relay get built if it's the only way between the two points it connects? Presumably there are other, far more treacherous, paths between those two points and the relay only serves to make a safer trip. But if I'm understanding the way relays work (Relay built in point A connects to relay built in point B), you'd have to have another way to get to points A and B to build the relays before you can use them.
Fucked if I know, that's yet another plot hole. Everything in the game says the Omega-4 relay is the only way in or out of the system.
 

RatRace123

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I never cared too much about the holes in logic presented in 2, though I will say it wasn't as good as one. That's really more because I felt that the story as a whole was inferior to the first one's. ME2 had a lot of awesome moments and set pieces but they never all came together like ME1's did. Beyond that, it lacked an antagonist like Saren.
You could feel Saren's presence in ever story mission and a lot of the side missions, almost everything you did in the game was because of something he did. In the sequel, the Collectors have an influence in Mordin's recruitment mission and a few other missions, but for the majority of the game, they were an after thought, like an annoying chore you had to take care of. Yes, the game was mostly spent gathering followers to fight them, but apart from waiting and twiddling their thumbs at the other side of the relay, they didn't do much to actively stop Shepard from collecting his team members.

I guess the problems I had with Mass Effect 2's story can be summed up as:
Too many party members and too many missions spent just picking them up, leaving not enough time to get to know all of them.
No antagonist like Saren, dogging you at every turn
Story seemed a bit too disjointed all around.
 

Duskflamer

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Agayek said:
Duskflamer said:
Question: How did the Omega-4 relay get built if it's the only way between the two points it connects? Presumably there are other, far more treacherous, paths between those two points and the relay only serves to make a safer trip. But if I'm understanding the way relays work (Relay built in point A connects to relay built in point B), you'd have to have another way to get to points A and B to build the relays before you can use them.
Fucked if I know, that's yet another plot hole. Everything in the game says the Omega-4 relay is the only way in or out of the system.
No, the way I remember it people knew that the Collectors were using it to move through the system, but they didn't know exactly where it led to (not until EDI tracked it down, which happened after you gained the ability to move through the relay IIRC). Also keep in mind that the Reapers have vastly superior technology, parts of space that are impossible for the alliance races to move through could simply amount to rough spots for the Reapers, turning paths that are impossible to cross into paths that are undesirable to use.
 

Oro44

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I'm starting to feel like one in an extreme minority who actually liked ME2 and DA2. For this, I've been attacked as "not having standards" and being the "masses that are being pandered to". It's become fashionable as of late to hate Bioware for their latest releases and its getting old. However, I will add this; the quality of EA games seems to have taken a tumble. The Modern Warfare series is quickly turning into a Michael Bay movie and Black Ops made no g'damn sense to me. And these got perfect scores all over the place. I guess the point to all this is that the quality of a game is not an objective thing. It is entirely subjective. People are going to love a game, people are going to hate a game. But people should not be attacked for their opinion on the matter, and this article, I think, does a good job in voicing complaints without taking it out on the fans. I applaud Shamus for this, and I hope others learn from it. Ah, nerd rage. Therapeutic.
 

Lorechaser

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Woodsey said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
I have raged against the railroading (I have to work with Cerberus?),.
I have to work with the Alliance? I have to become a Spectre? I have to oppose Saren?

There's always some railroading, and you at least have the chance to play it as if you are undermining them or agree with them (or a mix).
Those are different. My Paragon Shepard wouldn't work with Cerberus. He destroyed three of their bases, his whole team was killed because of them, they are radically pro-human. And I never worked with the Alliance. I did missions they gave/suggested to me, but I made it clear that I was a Spectre now (like saying fuck you to the ship inspection guy).
I completely agree. I am a huge Bioware fanboy. I own at least one copy of every game they've made, two of several, at least 4 of KOTOR (two on Xbox, because I lost one for a while, one on Steam, one on physical media). I signed up for SWTOR the day it was available, I bought the freakin' item packs on DA2, for god's sake. I'm not a hater, looking to cap on them at my first chance. And to be clear, I have preordered ME3 already, just in case they do another "pre-orders get Signature Editions" bit.

My first thought on playing ME2 was "Wait, excuse me? Cerberus? Aren't they horrible, awful people? Didn't I spend a lot of my time last game thwarting them?" I had honestly thought they might be the bad guys in ME2. And suddenly Martin Sheen is explaining that I should work for them. And my choices are "Okay," "*sigh*, okay," and "No! Well, okay." I get that once it was laid in that you'd work for Cerberus, you can't have a "no" choice. I contend that making Cerberus the "good" guys was a bad choice.

I got over it, kinda. I spent every mission going "Dammit, why am I doing this for them?" at least once. I chose the "They're dicks, but I guess I'm kinda weak willed" option whenever I could. I avoided going to talk to the Illusive Man whenever I could. I can honestly say it spoiled the game somewhat for me every time I was reminded I was working for them. And while we're at it, Bioware, usually you at least put the super connected all powerful archetype in the background a bit, and let us pretend we have our own goals. It kinda annoyed me to have TIM right there, lording it over me. Sure you're smart - you're a plot NPC! If I had the script, I could totally make those connections too!

I totally agree that the worst Bioware game is what other companies wish they could do. And I guess, on reflection, ME2 might be the worst Bioware game. It's still in my top 20 games. And I still recommend it to everyone I know.
 

Lorechaser

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Oro44 said:
I'm starting to feel like one in an extreme minority who actually liked ME2 and DA2. For this, I've been attacked as "not having standards" and being the "masses that are being pandered to". It's become fashionable as of late to hate Bioware for their latest releases and its getting old.
I'll totally agree on this. The entire "Oh, everyone who has any taste hates DA2" thing is getting really old. I get it. You didn't enjoy DA2. I did. This is really not a defining characteristic for either of us.

I don't think Shamus is in that boat, though. 1. It's kinda his thing to nitpick games. It's why many of his fans started reading him (that, or his LOTRO comic). 2. His critiques are pretty valid. 3. He's here to amuse us/make us annoyed. He sure did that. ;)
 

Nylis

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Bayushi_Kouya said:
I expect my video game plots to have some holes in them. I expect my movies to have some holes in them. Nature of the beast.

What I dislike is when the holes are gigantic gaping tears in reality that stick in my craw to the point where I can't focus on the rest of experience.

More than anything, what bothers me is the inconsistency of ME. I was psyched to hear I'd be going to Tuchanka to glad-hand Wrex and see what he's been doing as Padishah Emperor of the Krogan. I was a little upset to learn it was backhanding the canon.

Mordin/EDI explains to us that the genophage alters krogan fertility rates. Every other source of info about the genophage in the games (read: the krogan themselves), seem to think that the genophage randomly ends the fertility of 99.999% of the females of their race. Are the krogan just stupid? Is Wrex's propaganda network that tight? The krogan and the rest of the galaxy seem to have two different sets of info about how the genophage works, and it is NEVER ADDRESSED. That could be time constraints, but it could also be poor editing. Given the general daffyness of the rest of ME2, I'm much more inclined to think the latter.

Why is Subject Zero portrayed as aunstoppable face-wrecking badass when she's more of a squishy wizard in gameplay? Why is no one other than Mordin doing anything on the ship until you come over and poke them for conversation? Why does Garrus, a deeply loved character, have the shortest dialogue tree?

I don't think EA is responsible for these changes per se, but I would be upset if they didn't lift a finger to stop them. ME2 could've been great. Now it's just good.
I can answer that krogan question easy. There is one point where talking to Mordin that he says "the genophage is commonly and INCORRECLY called a sterility plague." Mordin then goes on to say that the genophage actually just puts the krogan birthrate back to pre-industrialised levels. The krogan have no idea HOW the genophage works or what it ACTUALLY does. All they know is they don't have as many successful births as they used to. And since krogans are not as smart as Salarian scientists, and don't have much interest in such things, this is the conclusion that they came to.

As for the whole subject zero gameplay thing, I can counter that by asking, why in final fantasy Dirge of Cerberus is Vinent able to jump 50 ft in the air and shoot down helicopters in a single shot in the cutscenes, but then during the game he plays like a 5 yr old with a peashooter?
 

satsugaikaze

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Souplex said:
Also; a really big plot hole throughout the series: It's been established that Asari can read minds.
Circumstantial evidence is valid.
Well there was that thing where Liara dives into Shepard's head in Mass Effect 1 to see his visions.

That's pretty much that hole filled right there

Lorechaser said:
My first thought on playing ME2 was "Wait, excuse me? Cerberus? Aren't they horrible, awful people? Didn't I spend a lot of my time last game thwarting them?" I had honestly thought they might be the bad guys in ME2. And suddenly Martin Sheen is explaining that I should work for them. And my choices are "Okay," "*sigh*, okay," and "No! Well, okay." I get that once it was laid in that you'd work for Cerberus, you can't have a "no" choice. I contend that making Cerberus the "good" guys was a bad choice.
Jerk!Shepard turns the whole thing on its head by stating multiple times "I DON'T WORK FOR CERBERUS, CERBERUS WORKS FOR ME. BITCHES."
 

Savber

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Oro44 said:
I'm starting to feel like one in an extreme minority who actually liked ME2 and DA2. For this, I've been attacked as "not having standards" and being the "masses that are being pandered to". It's become fashionable as of late to hate Bioware for their latest releases and its getting old. However, I will add this; the quality of EA games seems to have taken a tumble. The Modern Warfare series is quickly turning into a Michael Bay movie and Black Ops made no g'damn sense to me. And these got perfect scores all over the place. I guess the point to all this is that the quality of a game is not an objective thing. It is entirely subjective. People are going to love a game, people are going to hate a game. But people should not be attacked for their opinion on the matter, and this article, I think, does a good job in voicing complaints without taking it out on the fans. I applaud Shamus for this, and I hope others learn from it. Ah, nerd rage. Therapeutic.
True but I want to point out that EA didn't publish Modern Warfare... It's Activision.

EA has the BATTLEFIELD franchise. But yeah... in all honesty, it seems that everyone hates Bioware now. It's the 'cool' thing to do.
 

Garrison_005

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honestdiscussioner said:
Shamus, I have to say that was one of the worst critiques I've read, on anything gaming related. Ever.

Most of your issues were legitimately explained in ME2, or are just plain wrong\ill thought out.
Totally in agreement with you here, man. Really tired of people hating on Bioware because they're trying to go in a new direction with their games. At its core, Mass Effect 2 is still an RPG and the story is epic. Most of the supposed 'plot-holes' that he mentioned dont even exist, as you pointed out. Keep up the good work, Honest.
 

Himmelgeher

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Most of you're "plot holes" have in game explanations, not fanon. The only plot hole you mentioned was TIM not telling Shepard he was walking into a trap. Granted, since everything the Collectors have ever done has been a trap, you should have seen that coming. And if you saw it coming, then Shepard saw it coming, because you are Shepard. Literally every other point brought up has an explanation either in dialogue or in the Codex.
 

Himmelgeher

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Agayek said:
Fucked if I know, that's yet another plot hole. Everything in the game says the Omega-4 relay is the only way in or out of the system.
Well, no. Omega-4 has a sister relay. A mass relay is incapable of functioning without one. Just because they don't specifically say "the Omega-4 relay has a sister relay" doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Everything in the game, in fact, does point to a sister relay near the Collector base. The game also never shows any of your squad mates eating. This is sort of like suggesting (or, more accurately, insisting) that because none of your squad-mates have a meal onscreen that they are absolutely, unquestionably, irrevocably vampires. Then going on to say that this means there is the plot hole of Vampires existing in the Mass Effect universe when nothing else has been supernatural in the game (well, except for telekinesis, mind-melding, giant, magical, mind-controlling sentient ships, and zombies). The way I see it, there are one of three possibilities: you aren't paying any attention, and then making stuff up, you have some kind of mental disorder, or you're manufacturing non-existent plot holes for the sole purpose of complaining about them on the internet. All of those are just kind of sad. In reference to the post before; we don't have any idea what the Reapers are actually capable of. We can guess, but that isn't the same thing as knowing. They're mile-long, sentient starships capable of doing things we can't imagine. I think it's pretty safe to say that if the Reapers built a base in the core, then they had a way of doing it, because they did it.
 

bjj hero

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Experienced points is my favourite article on the escapist and I cant read it due to spoilers...

I should beat ME2 quick.