What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

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gyrobot_v1legacy

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For late night anime only subscription stuff has frontal nudity these days thanks to the tightening standard mrant the production staff can make you pay 50 for an unrated episode

I always felt if Rockstar was asked to develop a game with Temco Koei there will be unapologetic uncensored frontal nudity with hbo tier softcore
 

Dragonlayer

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The fear of Anita Sarkeesian burning down the would-be developer's house.

That, *or* the fact that online pornography catering to even the most terrifying desires is freely available, which I imagine would make any developer think twice about sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars into a game that *at best* would have naked characters having conventional sex.
 

DefunctTheory

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Guilion said:
AccursedTheory said:
Curious. The most common insult I've seen thrown around in this thread so far has been 'prudish.'

I really don't think the titty lovers are in a position to cry 'victim' here.
I can't point specific posts on the thread as that would warrant me a warning, however just in the first page there's someone saying those kind of games are nothing but porn and someone else implying the only people that play those games are lonely people that can't get real women. That sort of condescending attitude is what I'm reffering to when I say there's prejudice leveled at those kind of games and the people who play them.
Oh, please.

Out of curiosity, I checked.

Users blasting DOAX/'Titty Game' Enthusiast - 2
Users blasting US citizens as prudish/puritanical - 10
Users blasting companies that make titty games - 2
Users blasting people for thinking Huniepop/DOAX are titty games - 1
Users claiming I, specifically, am a subpar perv - 1
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
while you COULD say something like this is the reason, it's not.

Andy Shandy said:
If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.
This is.
Why do you think they don't sell.
Because they are terrible games, soft core porn, for voyeurs basically, and that doesn't sell games, cause, ya know, people who buy games tend to want good game play to go along with it. Which tends to be why the DOA fighters don't do well ether, they just aren't good fighters.

so that 'puritan' malarkey doesn't really hold up, cause if they where good games, they would sell far better then they do, but they aren't so they don't.
Yet they sell splendidly in Japan. Wonder why.

Lightspeaker said:
I'm vaguely amused by several people in here saying "its not that the west has sexual hang-ups, its that they don't sell". Never occurred to you that they don't sell BECAUSE the west has sexual hang-ups?
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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fisheries said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why do you think they don't sell.
They don't make much money outside of Japan.
Because both cultural hemispheres have a widely divergent history of sexual taboo and inhibition.
Fox12 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
Because gamers are known for their severe religious prudery?
Up.
 
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gyrobot said:
For late night anime only subscription stuff has frontal nudity these days thanks to the tightening standard mrant the production staff can make you pay 50 for an unrated episode

I always felt if Rockstar was asked to develop a game with Temco Koei there will be unapologetic uncensored frontal nudity with hbo tier softcore
I just thought of something, you know how in your original post you said Rockstar could do what KT can never do, full frontal nudity? I find it ironic, because while KT is known for it's dumb beach volleyball game that only horny teenagers get excited over, Koei, before making anything famous, made eroge... not just any old eroge, but the first eroge EVER.

Anyways, DOAX really is like an fanservice OVA of the main series, so it was not destined for great success. It's doesn't seem to be the most engaging game, where a person can derive a lot of enjoyment gamewise or sexually, and it doesn't seem to be great at either.

HOWEVER, everyone likes sexy time even if they pretend they don't, hence why GoT and the Witcher 3 have people okay with the sex for no reason, except people everywhere talk about it so we assume it's okay. This is why people here talk about how much they love porn, but nobody talks about how much they love hentai.

If Rockstar made a great game that was extremely perverted, I bet you people would eat it up. If CD Projekt Red said, "We're going to remove the sex scenes in the Witcher 3, because we are going to appeal to a wider audience blah blah blah" I bet you tons of people here would defend its removal. Since the game is out, and we see Conan O' Brian playing sex scenes on national TV and laughing, and journalists making jokes about sexy time and saying how it is somehow "tasteful", we just assume it's okay, and crack jokes about how perverted we are for enjoying it. *Sigh*
 

Fox12

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Johnny Novgorod said:
fisheries said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why do you think they don't sell.
They don't make much money outside of Japan.
Because both cultural hemispheres have a widely divergent history of sexual taboo and inhibition.
Fox12 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
Because gamers are known for their severe religious prudery?
Up.
I see people say this, and I can't help but feel like they don't know anything about the East or the West. As if they're pulling that from nowhere.

DOA doesn't move crazy numbers in Japan. It makes profit, but it's not a huge AAA hit, which is why a company like Rockstar won't be making anything like it. Furthermore, hentai fans need to stop pretending like Japan is some sexual oasis, especially in contrast to America or Europe. The average Japanese person would be as disturbed by your tentacle hentai as the average American. Maybe then we can accept that sexual taboos are a complex and nuanced subject across cultural boundaries, and not divided into some simplistic prudish and non-prudish binary.
 

runic knight

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Combination of things, but largely all stemming back toward a very puritanical view of sex making it a lot more hassle then it is worth for larger developers, and far more difficult to succeed for smallers ones. Lets take it from the top.

First, audience. Now, lets be honest here, the people who like these games are likely not coming into them from a purely "I want porn" level. It is rather telling how often that gets tossed out when in defense of censoring some games or in justifying why it is ok to attack them, as it reveals the same sort of social shaming mechanisms of the past sex negativity in the culture. There is difference between titillation and outright porn, and there exists audience desire for both. So games of this nature do have a market at least, even if niche. This is also shown by the relative success of games like Honiepop, or the popularity of dating or other sims in the east and the interests they generate in the West. That is despite the existence and easy access to porn, so obviously something about the games is appealing to an audience in a way that porn alone does not appeal to. In this, I don't know what, merely that amid the limitless amounts of porn online, if there is still an actual market for the games, they can't be in complete competition else they would cease. Still, as demonstrated by some posters in the thread, and a lot of the general discussions on the topic around these forums, the view of that audience is a very dismissive "just watch porn instead you lonely etc etc." Stigma like that alone would affect the audience demand. This is offset, in part, by the increased use of online distribution, though not entirely (lets call it "steam library shame syndrome"). But it is based entirely on a very scornful and puritanical judgment of what other people enjoy and would affect audience demand. Sort of less likely for someone constantly being told "that stuff is for loser perverts" to actually want to explore it, and sort of hard for people who do like it to share it with others when viewed in such a way.

Next, viability. In terms of making profit, the games can certainly do that. As long as you aren't stupidly expecting CoD level of sales in making these games, it does still have enough of a niche audience demand to remain profitable. As someone else pointed out, the maker of Honiepop is a millionaire so obviously it isn't a sinkhole for cash if done right. The question is to what extent of investment can you get a worthwhile return on, with more simple games like honiepop, picture-puzzle games or choose your own adventure type games being far more easily made for less, and thus easier to make profit from. I suppose larger companies could take a page out of DoA's book and make games of that sort as tests of new modelers or as afterthoughts with existing tech as a means to cut costs, but that brings up other issues I'll touch on later. With regard to viability though, the games can work to make money off of, though as touched on before, the stigma they carry is prudish and judgmental and that adds another layer to have to fight through and decreases both chances of success and willingness of investors to be tied to the concept.

After that, we return to why larger companies, despite having the resources to cheaply and easily follow DoA's idea, would be unwilling to do so. That is the greater culture mindset that is, as already mentioned, very puritanical about anything related to sex or self gratification. Companies don't want to be associated with that because it is indecent, which would hurt any sort of family-friendly image, or would incite too much political controversy. And while perfectly valid reasons from a business sense, they are nevertheless still intrinsically based upon a cultural negativity toward anything related to sex, and a heavy judgmental view of anything relating to self-gratification in general. It is "dirty" after all.

Now, all that alone is pretty much why the situation is the way it is in terms of such games in the west, though there is one other wrinkle worth mentioning as playing an impact. That is the growth of sex-negative feminism in the western culture. Puritanical judgmentalism that evolved out of the faded "free love" feminism of the past now embracing the prudish ideas of sexuality being bad in the name of saving women by enforcing the exact standards of behavior and disdain towards anything sexual as the religious fundamentalists before them, it reinforces the ideas of shame and disgust towards sexuality (albeit more heavily sexist towards trying to shame male sexuality) on the basis of claims of such sexuality causing harm to one extent or another. Regardless of personal view on this issue though, the fact that this mindset has grown in prominence, especially among the growing internet media, remains a fact of note and also plays a part in why such games are less likely in the west. Torch-bearing controversy mongerers, shrill authoritarian condemners and self-styled would-be censors are sadly something that would need to be faced, and adds yet another layer of bullshit towards any project like what is suggested. Existing companies would be fighting an exponential conflict of not only established cultural mindsets, but also the re-affirming sexual negativity and condemnation (as well as new-wave moralizing and rabble-rousing) of the political group. New companies would face, well, open scorn, attempts to blacklist and attempts to censor as campaigns waged on steam have shown. It all makes it far more effort for a profit that would be more easily obtained with other sorts of games and subject matter.

In the end, it all flows back to the same source point as to why the west doesn't make such games: The culture of sexual puritanicalism is still strong, and while it has changed reason on why it is justified, the attitudes and consequences of violating that taboo are the same now as they were years ago.
 

WindKnight

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Johnny Novgorod said:
fisheries said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why do you think they don't sell.
They don't make much money outside of Japan.
Because both cultural hemispheres have a widely divergent history of sexual taboo and inhibition.
Fox12 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
Because gamers are known for their severe religious prudery?
Up.
https://youtu.be/BevPFBmOdig?t=49m15s

keep going for a couple of minutes till he starts talking about moe.

They make a profit in Japan by not selling well, but targeting a very 'select' audience they know will pay over the odds for them. Can you imagine a western audience paying 5-10 time the going rate for a titty game?

Last I checked, DOAX 3 was $80 to import, with a tonne of grinding involved or expensive micro transactions if you want all the swimsuits..
 

Achelexus

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Game developers in western countries are still very scared of the sort of hate mob backlash that games like this tend to create, there are a ton of people with backwards views that tend to get offended by this sort of stuff.

I mean, it's changing slowly, but it will be a long time until it gets on the level of japanese game developers, who feel free to actually be creative and have no fear of backlash.
 

Gamerpalooza

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slo said:
I kind of re-read the thread and found that it absolutely does not answer the question, why cannot Blizzard do an Overwatch Beach spin-off, where everyone's running around in hula skirts blasting each other with super soakers.
Keep in mind that in the Dead or Alive universe Zack bought his private island in the end of DoA3 which allowed for DoAX which he did under the pretense of it being the next island that the tournament will be held. The island was destroyed but he made money in DoA 4 and either repaired the island or bought a new one.

Sure Blizzard can easily pull off something like this since they can make a game like Heroes of the Storm but they wont touch this because they are PC about it which was proven to be the case when their political position was brought into question and they mentioned gamergate in one of their panels. Even though that doesn't really stops them taking the sexy outfit route for DLC in both HotS and Overwatch. If they need a plot they can easily concoct one.

Hell they can even break the mold by bringing males, "animals"?, and pets into the mix.

So to answer your question bluntly, Blizzard wont touch that kind of spin-off because of their political leanings. It's too radical of an idea for their company to uphold and defend.
 

asinann

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Despite the facts being in people's faces a large percentage of the people still think video games are for kids. Add in several hundred years of prudishness brought on by religion and it makes anything to do with the boob (even breast feeding)evil.
 

Dizchu

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It's probably because a lot of the stuff in Japan like the ecchi harem genre and bouncing titty games appeals to a very adolescent perception of sexuality. You know, the kind that 15 year-old boys would experience. Like catching a glimpse of a classmate's underwear or accidentally touching their boobs or thighs and getting super flustered about it. In the west we aren't somehow "more prudish" about sex, we just get extremely uncomfortable when we associate sexuality with being a minor. There is always constant hysteria about pedophiles and teen sex, though the latter may be a problem as it results in less efficient sex education and more teen pregnancy.

The kind of sexuality displayed in these kinds of games is generally treated as a joke here, like in music videos such as Stacey's Mom by Fountains of Wayne. If we want sexual content, we want actual sexual content. Either to service some sort of story or to excite us (sometimes both). When it does excite us, we want it to cater to our interests. The appeal of stuff like Dead or Alive is simultaneously too narrow and too broad, as it is too narrow to make much money and too broad to specifically appeal to anything but the most "general" sexual tastes.

Unfortunately that's just how things work in Japan, so you get dozens of awful ecchi shows that try to appeal specifically to "otakus" by having bumbling idiot protagonists (almost always male teenagers) who accidentally draw the attention of a bunch of attractive girls. I love me some anime tiddy but it's because these things try too desperately to appeal to a stereotype more than a demographic that I always feel like it's pandering instead of legitimately engaging.
 

ManutheBloodedge

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I would say the reason why the west doesn't produce such games is largely business-related, but not in an obvious way.
DOAX is a different type of game, even if you ignore the content altogether. It has smaller production values, and it is not expected to make a lot of money by the developer, just enough money.
This kind of production is common for japanese developers and indies, but has all but vanished in Americas Triple-A market. The big companies only develop huge games, every game has to be big, the next great franchise, and make massive numbers.


These type of "smaller expense, smaller revenue" games are exceedingly rare in the American Triple-A market, and games like DOAX have a fanbase, but are not marketable for as much demographics as possible. I think this is a large point why no company like Rockstar is making games like DOAX. If you look at the indies, you have your fair share of western ecchi and porno titles.

And now for something completely different.

Einspanner said:
slo said:
Einspanner said:
That may be what you assume and believe, but it isn't what I actually said. You're clear on that at least, right?
Yes. But since you have never met such people you have no way of knowing that this is not a case of circular logic, have you?
I'm going to slow-walk you through this, on the basis that it's the quickest way to help you understand this, and end your flow of baseless accusations.

I've met many people with "waifus" and massive VN collections, and they are... say it with me now... "Frustrated and lonely". What I'm yet to meet is the mythical pillow-fucker who isn't both of those things.
"Mythical pillow-fucker"? Might just be me, but that sounds glorious. I imagine an old monk in a mountain cave high above the clouds, surrounded by thousand of wankpillows and deeply complementing philosophical quandaries like "What is Waifu? What leads to Moe? How large can a Zettai Ryouki be? Which of my pillows shall I fuck next?" And there will be lone otakus pilgering up the mountain with their favorite pillow in hand... OK, definitly just me. Still hilarious.

Apart from that, I might just be your mythical pillow-fucker, despite never actually having fucked one. I don't really need or seek out physical contact with other humans, but I do like a good wank. I like fanservice, no matter if it is used in the erotic or comedic way, and I don't feel lonely (I have friends) and sure as hell not frustrated. Prostituion is legal in my country, so if I really wanted to sleep with a woman, I would just pay for it. I frankly do not understand the fuss the rest of the world is making about sex in general, but again, just me.

Sorry for boring you with that, I just couldn't pass up on the chance to apply for the title of "mythical rethorical pillow-fucker". Do tell me if I won, I want to make business cards.
 

Lunar Templar

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
while you COULD say something like this is the reason, it's not.

Andy Shandy said:
If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.
This is.
Why do you think they don't sell.
Because they are terrible games, soft core porn, for voyeurs basically, and that doesn't sell games, cause, ya know, people who buy games tend to want good game play to go along with it. Which tends to be why the DOA fighters don't do well ether, they just aren't good fighters.

so that 'puritan' malarkey doesn't really hold up, cause if they where good games, they would sell far better then they do, but they aren't so they don't.
Yet they sell splendidly in Japan. Wonder why.

Lightspeaker said:
I'm vaguely amused by several people in here saying "its not that the west has sexual hang-ups, its that they don't sell". Never occurred to you that they don't sell BECAUSE the west has sexual hang-ups?
hows it feel to be WRONG.
DoAX I
North America: 0.36m 61.1%
+ Europe: 0.08m 13.4%
+ Japan: 0.14m 23.0%
+ Rest of the World: 0.02m 2.5%
= Global 0.59m

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/482/dead-or-alive-xtreme-beach-volleyball/

DoAX II
North America: 0.15m 57.7%
+ Europe: 0.03m 11.0%
+ Japan: 0.06m 24.9%
+ Rest of the World: 0.02m 6.4%
= Global 0.26m
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/481/dead-or-alive-xtreme-2/

whats that?! the first 2 games didn't even sell 1 million copys world wide, AND North America OUT SOLD JAPAN.

yeah, we're done here.

Sit down, shut up, and stop lieing to people.

They're bad games, bad games don't sell. get over it.
 

Einspanner

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Charli said:
The fear of the tiddy is strong in the west. Good Ol' Christian fundamentalism.
It's almost like you haven't read the thread....

Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Lunar Templar said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
while you COULD say something like this is the reason, it's not.

Andy Shandy said:
If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.
This is.
Why do you think they don't sell.
Because they are terrible games, soft core porn, for voyeurs basically, and that doesn't sell games, cause, ya know, people who buy games tend to want good game play to go along with it. Which tends to be why the DOA fighters don't do well ether, they just aren't good fighters.

so that 'puritan' malarkey doesn't really hold up, cause if they where good games, they would sell far better then they do, but they aren't so they don't.
Yet they sell splendidly in Japan. Wonder why.

Lightspeaker said:
I'm vaguely amused by several people in here saying "its not that the west has sexual hang-ups, its that they don't sell". Never occurred to you that they don't sell BECAUSE the west has sexual hang-ups?
hows it feel to be WRONG.
DoAX I
North America: 0.36m 61.1%
+ Europe: 0.08m 13.4%
+ Japan: 0.14m 23.0%
+ Rest of the World: 0.02m 2.5%
= Global 0.59m

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/482/dead-or-alive-xtreme-beach-volleyball/

DoAX II
North America: 0.15m 57.7%
+ Europe: 0.03m 11.0%
+ Japan: 0.06m 24.9%
+ Rest of the World: 0.02m 6.4%
= Global 0.26m
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/481/dead-or-alive-xtreme-2/

whats that?! the first 2 games didn't even sell 1 million copys world wide, AND North America OUT SOLD JAPAN.

yeah, we're done here.

Sit down, shut up, and stop lieing to people.

They're bad games, bad games don't sell. get over it.
AccursedTheory said:
Guilion said:
AccursedTheory said:
Curious. The most common insult I've seen thrown around in this thread so far has been 'prudish.'

I really don't think the titty lovers are in a position to cry 'victim' here.
I can't point specific posts on the thread as that would warrant me a warning, however just in the first page there's someone saying those kind of games are nothing but porn and someone else implying the only people that play those games are lonely people that can't get real women. That sort of condescending attitude is what I'm reffering to when I say there's prejudice leveled at those kind of games and the people who play them.
Oh, please.

Out of curiosity, I checked.

Users blasting DOAX/'Titty Game' Enthusiast - 2
Users blasting US citizens as prudish/puritanical - 10
Users blasting companies that make titty games - 2
Users blasting people for thinking Huniepop/DOAX are titty games - 1
Users claiming I, specifically, am a subpar perv - 1
There's more too, you should give it a try! You might come away with a new perspective, uncomfortable as that might be for you.
 

DefunctTheory

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Einspanner said:
AccursedTheory said:
Guilion said:
AccursedTheory said:
Curious. The most common insult I've seen thrown around in this thread so far has been 'prudish.'

I really don't think the titty lovers are in a position to cry 'victim' here.
I can't point specific posts on the thread as that would warrant me a warning, however just in the first page there's someone saying those kind of games are nothing but porn and someone else implying the only people that play those games are lonely people that can't get real women. That sort of condescending attitude is what I'm reffering to when I say there's prejudice leveled at those kind of games and the people who play them.
Oh, please.

Out of curiosity, I checked.

Users blasting DOAX/'Titty Game' Enthusiast - 2
Users blasting US citizens as prudish/puritanical - 10
Users blasting companies that make titty games - 2
Users blasting people for thinking Huniepop/DOAX are titty games - 1
Users claiming I, specifically, am a subpar perv - 1

There's more too, you should give it a try! You might come away with a new perspective, uncomfortable as that might be for you.
...What? I'm struggling to discover how 'try more' is an appropriate response to what amounts to me taking a score count of thread posters. Do you want me to try reading more post? I assure you, I already did. That's how I took score.
 

Einspanner

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AccursedTheory said:
Einspanner said:
AccursedTheory said:
Guilion said:
AccursedTheory said:
Curious. The most common insult I've seen thrown around in this thread so far has been 'prudish.'

I really don't think the titty lovers are in a position to cry 'victim' here.
I can't point specific posts on the thread as that would warrant me a warning, however just in the first page there's someone saying those kind of games are nothing but porn and someone else implying the only people that play those games are lonely people that can't get real women. That sort of condescending attitude is what I'm reffering to when I say there's prejudice leveled at those kind of games and the people who play them.
Oh, please.

Out of curiosity, I checked.

Users blasting DOAX/'Titty Game' Enthusiast - 2
Users blasting US citizens as prudish/puritanical - 10
Users blasting companies that make titty games - 2
Users blasting people for thinking Huniepop/DOAX are titty games - 1
Users claiming I, specifically, am a subpar perv - 1

There's more too, you should give it a try! You might come away with a new perspective, uncomfortable as that might be for you.
...What? I'm struggling to discover how 'try more' is an appropriate response to what amounts to me taking a score count of thread posters. Do you want me to try reading more post? I assure you, I already did. That's how I took score.
Sorry, you misunderstood, that was directed at Charli, I was citing you.
 

Lunar Templar

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Lightspeaker said:
Lunar Templar said:
Oh you want to play the numbers game?

Please let us play the numbers game!


Population of North America: ~565,265,000

Population of Japan: ~127,110,000

Ratio of Populations (North America:Japan): ~4.44:1


DOAXI Sales figures ratio (North America:Japan): ~2.57:1

DOAXII Sales figures ratio (North America:Japan): ~2.5:1


What's that? The games sold higher in Japan relative to its population size than North America? And that you used the figures in a biased way and deceptive way (by leaving out any correction for the respective population sizes) to try to prove your point?

To quote yourself:
"yeah, we're done here.

Sit down, shut up, and stop lieing to people."

Also I've reported your post given how abusive you're being. And blocked you. Good day. :)


I'm done with this thread now. Its been a pleasant and interesting chat with some of you.
none of that means anything sorry to say ^^

more people doesn't mean more sales, all it means is more potential sales.