What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

[Davroth]

Honestly, I've always found Japan to be more on the repressed side, publicly at least, especially public displays like clothes and displays of affection. Although, Japanese strip clubs are pretty wild, very explicit, that might just be Tokyo though.

Generally, I think the reason things like DOAX don't appeal as much to Westerners is that the teasing low end stuff is generally disregarded in favor of just straight up porn, or at least soft core toplessness. The more open attitude towards publicly sexual displays and dress in the West directly competes with at least some of the audience that games like DOAX draw in Japan. Westerners can step outside in most warmer areas and get the same effect from real women that you can get from the kind of fanservice DOAX provides, sans the groping of course.

Its more a cultural attraction/aversion to teasing than anything to do with prudishness, Western audiences seem to want to just cut to the chase when it comes to fiction, while Japanese audiences are more open to teasing without anything actually happening. Varies by region of course, someone in Shibuya ward in Tokyo, or Castro district in San Francisco is obviously going to be different than the general audience living in a rural area.

It has everything to do with Japanese culture. To them, sexuality is something to be practiced in the privacy of your own home, hence why public displays of sexuality is frowned upon.

Mmmm, have you actually ever played a DOAX game?

The first one.

Calling it pornographic is reallllllly stretching it. What I'm trying to say is there is no money shots of any kind.

I know it's not. But it's purpose, titillation, is also much easier and cheaper to attain.

Well, let's agree to disagree, then.

 

[EternallyBored]

Honestly, I've always found Japan to be more on the repressed side, publicly at least, especially public displays like clothes and displays of affection. Although, Japanese strip clubs are pretty wild, very explicit, that might just be Tokyo though.

Generally, I think the reason things like DOAX don't appeal as much to Westerners is that the teasing low end stuff is generally disregarded in favor of just straight up porn, or at least soft core toplessness. The more open attitude towards publicly sexual displays and dress in the West directly competes with at least some of the audience that games like DOAX draw in Japan. Westerners can step outside in most warmer areas and get the same effect from real women that you can get from the kind of fanservice DOAX provides, sans the groping of course.

Its more a cultural attraction/aversion to teasing than anything to do with prudishness, Western audiences seem to want to just cut to the chase when it comes to fiction, while Japanese audiences are more open to teasing without anything actually happening. Varies by region of course, someone in Shibuya ward in Tokyo, or Castro district in San Francisco is obviously going to be different than the general audience living in a rural area.

It has everything to do with Japanese culture. To them, sexuality is something to be practiced in the privacy of your own home, hence why public displays of sexuality is frowned upon.

A simplistic way to put it, but not wholly inaccurate, my overall point is that I don't think its really prudishness that makes teasing games like DOAX or the various fan service animes unpopular in the West, well, not so much unpopular as less popular with so many Westerners asking what the point of such games is.

It seems, to me at least, to be a difference in how both cultures approach sexuality. America, and large parts of the West see sex as something to be upfront about, teasing and cavorting in teeny bikinis in entertainment is more likely to be looked down upon if there is no sexual payoff. We see this in jokes that make fun of blue balls or women being teases, when played totally straight its more likely that Westerners will see it as a negative trait rather than something to get excited about.

Whereas Japan's views on public sexuality make DOAX's style of tantalization more appealing as it pushes sexual buttons that would be seen as only the prelude in a Western property. I wouldn't call one view superior to the other, merely different cultural norms that cause things to be viewed differently. Of course these are generalities, I have met Japanese people that buck the trend on open displays of sexuality, and Westerners that appreciate the level of teasing that games like DOAX offer.

 

[SAMAS]

Brutally honest? Lack of interest.

I mean, the DOAX series never really sold a whole whole lot, with each entry selling lower and lower, and rarely if ever as good as the DOA main series. And let's be honest? How many of you first heard of DOAX3 before the whole Play-Asia thing happened?

Other fanservice games like Senran Kagura also don't sell all that much.

So, if these kinds of games can only keep small publishers afloat, why should these bigger companies bother?

I mean, these games have their fans, sure. But enough to warrant the risk of making a game yourself? I dunno...

 

[Dr. Crawver]

Yeah, no. You made the point. You give the examples. That's how logic and burden of proof work. You don't want to back up yours side, that's fine, but don't expect me to do your job for you.

Also again, bravo on addressing all the points I made. This feels less like a discussion, and more you with your fingers in your ears.

It's not a claim, it's a theory. And if you don't like a theory, you need to come up with a better theory or find some flaw in the existing one. It's your job, not mine. Don't expect me to run around finding evidence for you to bravely dismiss.
Now get your cards on the table. On what basis do you think things that are currently affecting big budget games with sexy content somehow don't apply to games in the making and don't prevent them from being done or get budgets?

Well, trying to decipher your question (seriously, that's a grammatical nightmare), the reason why big budget developers don't create games based solely around teasing and scantily clad women is basically there isn't the market for it to justify their budgets. I've made my stance clear before, but I'll lay it out very clearly for you.

The DOAX series has sold over it's 3 games just over 1 million copies world-wide. Interestingly enough, the lions share in north america (so bye-bye america is a prude, it sells well in japan argument). Big budget developers won't do anything if they think a game won't break 5 million, let alone a series only breaching 1. We've seen this when Tomb raider was considered a failure even though it sold multiple times more than DOAX has, as well as blizzard considering heroes of the storm a disappointment, again with a much bigger player base.

As for why these games don't have the required market? That is a deeply complex issue with far more than one reason behind it. But the first obvious one is these games are made for men. Or rather, straight men. Boom, 50% of the potential market gone in a flash. Because if you're not attracted to these characters (All female), what else is there for you? On that note, you have to actually find these characters sexually appealing, and sexual tastes are pretty diverse and hard to actually capture. I've seen the characters in the game, and not a single one does a thing for me. Partly because of the uncanny vally effect, and partly because I'm not interested in women who have the face of a prepubescent girl. The more we go down this list, the smaller and smaller the games potential market will shrink. And yes, people being too prudish to be interested in the game will deter some. Potential shame from buying the game could deter others. I'm not going to pretend they will have 0 effect. But I have no reason to believe they are the biggest factor.

So, there you go. My cards are on the table. I've highlighted my view on it all, given reasons behind it, with a few figures thrown in to help back it up. Care to do the same?

-Edit-
Also no, it is a claim. Or if I want to be charitable, it's a hypothesis. Either way, you still need to back it up if you want people to take it seriously.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Because they like to sell millions of units, not a hundred thousand or so?

You don't get it, they have to be made to sell it or they're censorshipping! We have to impinge on their right to run their business freely, so that we can prevent them from becoming part of the SJW Jew Media!

Wake up sheeple.

Careful with all that straw, stuff's flammable.

As much as I hate to admit it, Jim Sterling is actually right on the money on this, and Helter has a point (Though I don't hate to admit that.). A LOT of devs and publishers have a really bad form of tunnel vision when it comes to games. It's either they want ALL of the money, or they won't bother.

Seriously, we currently live in an age where 500,000 units being sold can be considered a flop or a disappointment.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

As much as I hate to admit it, Jim Sterling is actually right on the money on this, and Helter has a point (Though I don't hate to admit that.). A LOT of devs and publishers have a really bad form of tunnel vision when it comes to games. It's either they want ALL of the money, or they won't bother.

Seriously, we currently live in an age where 500,000 units being sold can be considered a flop or a disappointment.

To be fair 500,000 hasn't been great since the ps2 era. What's more worrying is how a game can sell 8.5 million and be considered a failure. That is more terrifying.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Now for the sales of DOAX. They don't matter because murder games are made in large quantities and there's like one sexy game to counter them.

Excuse me, ONE?

Have you been on the internet very long? H games, ecchi games, eastern and western alike, are only a mouse click away.

Go look at the Onechambra DLC section at the Steam store if you don't believe me.

And that's it. Bored now.

Clearly.

 

[Avnger]

Excuse me, ONE?

Have you been on the internet very long? H games, ecchi games, eastern and western alike, are only a mouse click away.

Go look at the Onechambra DLC section at the Steam store if you don't believe me.

I knew this would be an issue.
Action games with tits attached - we've got those alright.
Low budget visual novels - dime a dozen.
But when it comes to high budget games that are all of the Dionysus and none of the Ares, I rarely see those.
If there's a spot on the internet where they all gather, I've missed it.
So that's that.

Spoiler

Slo, the reason has been pointed out to you through logical arguments backed up by hard facts and sales data. There is no market large enough in the West to make it worthwhile for developers to drop a significant budget on this type of game. I'm sorry that you don't like that answer, but it is the truth.

If you still refuse to acknowledge this, please back up your assertion that such a market exists with concrete proof, as in tangible evidence that doesn't rely on the assumption that "well of course it exists, it's just some silent majority-esque thing."

 

[Sceadu]

Slo, the reason has been pointed out to you through logical arguments backed up by hard facts and sales data. There is no market large enough in the West to make it worthwhile for developers to drop a significant budget on this type of game. I'm sorry that you don't like that answer, but it is the truth.

If you still refuse to acknowledge this, please back up your assertion that such a market exists with concrete proof, as in tangible evidence that doesn't rely on the assumption that "well of course it exists, it's just some silent majority-esque thing."

This is a nice explanation. It is not wrong. But it also does not really explain anything. Today there's no market, tomorrow it might appear. The day after tomorrow it might vanish again.

Does that make sense to you? It's not real, it's ridiculous, so I have to ask. If you don't understand basic macroeconomics, please stop making grand and ridiculous claims.

I remember when...

Well then, stop relying on memory and do some reading, it will help you, and by extension everyone else who has to interact with you, here and elsewhere.

Demand can be created suddenly when a novel product enters the marketplace, but it doesn't fluctuate from vast to nothing to vast and back. That's ridiculous, and presumes ridiculous things about people and their motives. Not to mention that you have several data points with this game series alone, and they're CONSISTENT.

So just stop, and when people start asking you for something concrete, and you can't offer it... walk away. If you haven't gotten to the point where you can admit that you're wrong, just walk away. It's the better option than what you're doing now, and less likely to effect how people view you in the future.

 

[Sceadu]

snip

Why must you keep beating on this poor dead thread? Moreso why would you demand things from people on the internet?
I've already said all I had to say,

...So you've said before, and then (as now) you seem to find yourself with more to say. My argument wasn't by way of a demand, but just to say that if you keep up that unfortunate pattern, as least offer a sprinkle of content with your evasion and defensiveness.

 

[Gengisgame]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

 

[Helter Skelter]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

This isn't really true of most people in this thread, but by posting that way you've neatly grouped everyone who disagrees with you in the same pile without having to actually present your own argument. Please don't think any of that went unnoticed.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

Hostility at it existing? Where?

If there's hostility at it, it's at the attitude that the game not selling well is somehow some sort of massive liberal conspiracy.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

I own far and play more racey and far more explicit material than DOAX, and am not shamed for it. Nice try.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I guess I'll be an echo here...but anyway there's a combination of factors. For one thing, games like DOAX just don't sell well here. There's also the fact that the US is perceived to be really prudish about anything sexual. Whether or not Americans on the whole are or are not though, the perception is that we are so publishers are less likely to make or market that kind of game to the US, even if an American company makes it. There's also the past of sexy games that happened in America that didn't take off: The Guy Game and BMX XXX sold really poorly. I just don't think people are willing to invest time or money into something that wouldn't make that money back, even though there is a niche.

 

[Gengisgame]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

This isn't really true of most people in this thread, but by posting that way you've neatly grouped everyone who disagrees with you in the same pile without having to actually present your own argument. Please don't think any of that went unnoticed.

Your making things up.

Did I say all posters? no, I did not. My point stands, this is far from uncommon, I once posted a thread about sexy female characters asking that comments about this being sexist etc not come into it, there where still a lot of passive aggressive posters, many posters commented about how this was a sh** storm waiting to go down and then the real icing on the guy was a thread popping up about sexy male characters by the creator themselves stating that they made it as a protest to the other thread.

A lot of people don't like things, normally if you don't like something and complain about it's very existence your rightfully called an entitled whiner, example people who don't like shooters complaining about shooters dudebro shooters.

But when it comes to things of a sexual nature people actually praise each other for saying these things.

So it's silly to think that this would not encourage people to voice these views. That is just how it works.

 

[Gengisgame]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

Hostility at it existing? Where?

If there's hostility at it, it's at the attitude that the game not selling well is somehow some sort of massive liberal conspiracy.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

I own far and play more racey and far more explicit material than DOAX, and am not shamed for it. Nice try.

I am tired of arguing the hostility point, just because people don't like getting called on there actions doesn't mean they aren't doing it, I refer you to my last post.

Your last point means nothing for 2 reasons

1. Your an individual
2. You don't even mention the idea of being ok with sharing this with people you meet to show that it isn't shameful to you.

One of the most common used insults aimed at men on the internet is along the lines of "this guy is loser who sits at home looking at porn".

It's an effective shaming insult against men true or not. If it wasn't it wouldn't be used so much.

Sort of like calling a woman a slut is highly effective, the major difference there is that it's frowned upon to do that when there both essentially the same thing, judging and insulting someone based on there sexual life.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Your last point means nothing for 2 reasons

1. Your an individual

Is that still a thing? I have a hard time telling around the internet these days.

2. You don't even mention the idea of being ok with sharing this with people you meet to show that it isn't shameful to you.

One of the most common used insults aimed at men on the internet is along the lines of "this guy is loser who sits at home looking at porn".

Which is something I don't subscribe to.

I only consider you a "loser" for it if you, say, quit your job to do more spanking.

If it wasn't it wouldn't be used so much.

So is calling men manginas, SJW's, feminnazis, ect. And it's just as meaningless and petty.

Sort of like calling a woman a slut is highly effective, the major difference there is that it's frowned upon to do that when there both essentially the same thing, judging and insulting someone based on there sexual life.

Actually, the GamerGate side justifies calling a woman a slut with the cute little meme about master keys and shitty locks. Ever seen that one?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Actually, the GamerGate side justifies calling a woman a slut with the cute little meme about master keys and shitty locks. Ever seen that one?

You mean the lady who cheated on her boyfriend with at least five other guys in the name of her career advancement got called a slut? Last I checked, that was a pretty good description of such a person.

Also, no. I've actually never seen that meme used in GG circles. Might have missed it, but that's all I can say about it.

 

[Mr. Popplewick]

Actually, the GamerGate side justifies calling a woman a slut with the cute little meme about master keys and shitty locks. Ever seen that one?

You mean the lady who cheated on her boyfriend with at least five other guys in the name of her career advancement got called a slut? Last I checked, that was a pretty good description of such a person.

What's the name for the neckbeard shut-ins who spent two years circle-jerking over that infidelity, while desperately pretending it was "Junrlizm"?

I think "Thundercunt" might be a start, but you seem to have a creative mind, so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Mr. Popplewick]

Actually, the GamerGate side justifies calling a woman a slut with the cute little meme about master keys and shitty locks. Ever seen that one?

Actually, this cute little meme is ages old, and GG does not have central authority. Please avoid judging anonymous communities as if they're a single individual, because this is the shortest path into the strawman territory and "us vs them" mentality.

"We cost Gawker a million!"
"We were shut down at the SPJ"

But there is no "GG" when the shit comes down, is there? Of course now, at this late date, you're finally correct and there is no GG anymore.