What's with "Iron Sights" in today's games?

[Koeryn]

So a friend gifted me Battlefield Bad Company 2... what the hell is up with the sights?... every game seems to have "iron sights" when you aim, what was wrong with the damn cross hairs spread when normal and tighter when pulled in?

Yep, I'm with you on that one. Every time I discover a new game has ironsights it's just a massive 'aw crap they just had to, didn't they?' moment. I don't think it's realistic either- in real life we all have two eyes, and at any split second moment we can open the other eye to see things that are hidden behind the gun for the other eye. Seriously if I want a sixth of my already very limited view of an in-game world blacked out, I'd put a book in front of the monitor.

Not to mention their mere presence suggests that you'll never shoot straight unless you are using them. This is one reason why I hated the Wii Goldeneye- the original was as much about running and gunning freely as Unreal Tournament was about headshotting a dude while leaping between skyscrapers in low gravity. Try THAT with Ironsights. Plus it makes every insane kill replay look essentially the same over much of the screen.

If you like battlefield but hate Ironsights, you might be interested to know that before BF2, the series didn't use Ironsights, it used the spreading crosshair that you sound like you prefer.

It's one of many reasons why I much prefer playing BF1942 online. Even today. I might check to see who's on right now, actually, and jump in for some good action packed fun without ironsights.

Wait, open your eye? The hell are you shooting with an eye closed for to begin with? You lose depth perception, you lose field of view, it increases eye strain, I mean, seriously. There IS NO BENEFIT TO SHOOTING WITH ONE EYE CLOSED.

Actually it depends on the person, granted I taught to shoot with both eyes open and almost all soldiers, police, and athletes shoot with both eyes open; however I'm right handed, which means I look down the sight with my right eye, due to an accident at a young age I've got a scratch on my left eye, I found out about it when I was 11, my right eye compensates for my left during every day life, but if I close my left eye everything becomes clearer, it was estimated that my left eye is about useless on it's own.

So when I shoot I close my left eye, it improved my scores at competition shooting, didn't work as well with hunting though.

Oh, in that case you've got a good excuse. Carry on then!

 

[ayuri]

its a gun in a video game who really cares, people would be fine if it was called a fljobity and if you really are that picky about it you just should not play.

I noticed it with Fallout: NV and other games that I've played, every game seems to have "iron sights" when you aim.

*they use iron sights because the lead sights were toxic

 

[Jfswift]

I agree, they should go back to a spreading crosshair or at least make the iron sights not so obstructive. I don't remember having that much difficulty seeing down those on a real gun.

 

[MrJohnson]

Holy Moly- keep your shirt on Tucker, you'll blow a blood vessel if you're not careful. If you want to know why I decided to butt in to your argument, it's because your whining was just getting too embarrassing to ignore. I thought I'd tip off the other guy to just back cautiously away before you blew your top but then... well... its too late now isn't it.

So let's talk.

That's all you little brats do, make assumptions.

Interesting point, considering in that one post you assume the following about me:

*I am a kid
*I am a brat (and a little one at that)
*I'm a hipster (actually a hipster pussy, whatever that is...)
*I don't know how to use tissues

Unfortunately your assumptions are all wrong. (Except for hipster pussy- I'll have to look that one up before I can say for sure if I am one of those or not...) And that's saying nothing about the further assumptions on your other post- y'know, about me saying something then running off without saying another word? Pretty risky saying that a few minutes after their first post... but I guess nobody thinks too straight with steam shooting out of their ears, so I'll forgive you for that one.

"oh ignore him, he thinks his opinions are facts"
Yes of course I do because I stated my opinion without kissing your ass first.

Hey, all I'm saying is once you state an opinion, you treat it as if it's etched in titanium and is untouchable. This attitude mostly came through in words from you such as:

Because they wanted to make it more realistic" False.

my question was when has a game ever been ruined by realism and because I proved your answer wrong your getting whiny and throwing names around.

Do you even realize that we all get to die alone, overworked, and depressed?
you can think you won't be alone, but we all will be. We only see the sick and old for a few minutes, they spend their death alone and scared.

Seriously what was that last one about? Sounded like a Vietnam flashback or something.

And to reply to your reply to yourself before anyone else can reply:

First of all, if you think the GTA games were never headed for realism you never played 3 or you never played 1 and 2 because 3 was a huge leap towards boring realism.

For someone so determined to accuse others of not reading your posts, you ought to be a bit more careful with your own reading. If you had been paying attention I acknowledged a jump in realism from GTA 2 to 3, or did you just forget that was the point where GTA went 3D?

It's kind of quirky how quickly you leap to -yet another- assumption, this one being anyone with a differing opinion to yours about a game must simply not have played it. I can dig up examples from you in this thread if you would care to challenge that?

And I say again, what do you have to say to me kid?

I heard you the first time, and double posting doesn't bring in the replies any faster, y'know...

Little fuckers like you are not even human, your a human looking cancer on our planet. Somewhere down your family tree a freak that should have never breed with a human did and then multiplied. Now we have about a million of you mother fuckers.

That's... that's just beautiful, derelix. It must warm your heart at night to think of the exchanges you've had online from the safety of internet anonimity. I think I'm starting to understand your dying alone rant. Anyone with a temper such as yourself is surely headed that way, so do everyone a favour and calm down. Lay off the red cordial or something.

REALLY! YOU NOW FUCKING GET IT!

Yeah it's annoying when people make assumptions isn't it? Of course You people would never admit to it so it still doesn't really compare now does it. Stupid little pricks like you never realize your assuming, you just think your always right.

And yes that is an assumptions, nice work. You still don't get it.


Yes show me an example of this. Where did I say that anybody that disagrees with me over a fucking toy must have never played it.
Show me where I made that connection because I do not recall.



What do the 3 quotes prove?
I was getting testy because I was arguing with a moron that wanted to run is little know it all mouth but wouldn't bother to read one fucking word that I posted?
I wasn't saying my opinion was whatever the fuck your talking about. I wasn't forcing my opinion on anybody, just correcting his dumb ass mistake. He said realism is ruining gaming, I tried to explain to him that this isn't true.

I don't give two shits about video games anymore, I'm a grown ass man. Games are toys, it's a fucking hobby not a lifestyle. All I did was correct his dumb ass mistake just like I would if he had come in posting "Water is what's ruining the breathing air" because it's a stupid fucking thing to say.
Right maybe it is just my opinion that he's wrong, so fucking what? He's allowed to pretend his opinion is fucking gold but I cant even defend mine without some little fucker like you talking shit about me?

Ah of course, It's me that's going to die alone.

At least I'm aware of my fate. Yeah I'll probably die an embarrassing or disgraceful death but I really don't give a fuck, I hate living on the same planet as you parasites. You keep living out your delusions, believing your going to be surrounded by loved ones in your darkest hour. They always fucking leave you when things get hard, can't wait till you find that out yourself. One thing that keeps me warm at night is the knowledge that every one of you assholes will eventually experience the feeling of complete hopelessness.

My god...the prophecy that was foretold...it as come to fruition!

The DARK ONE LIVES AMONG US, ALL HAIL THE IMMORTAL LORD OF MISERY AND DEATH! N'GATH, N'GATH CTHULU, CTHULU!

ALL SHALL EXPERIENCE THE PAIN! THE LONELINESS! THE MISERY! THE DESPAIR!

 

[Bernzz]

My personal assumption is they are going for realism with the firearms, but speaking as someone who grew up around guns, used them for sport, and competed in competitors I can safely say that no freaking games I've ever played has ever, or will likely ever, get the feel "real", the sound, the smell, the feel of kick, frankly the sights in the game are just annoying, and this coming from a man who prefers that type of sight on his rifles over a scope.

Congratulations! You have an opinion!

Personally, I love the iron sights. The fact they're shit on a few weapons is an issue of it's own, but in general they're awesome and they give the game a more realistic feel. A tip btw - just because you can't replicate every single bit of reality doesn't mean the strive for realism is entirely useless. Goes for just about every other aspect in both games and real life as well.

Oh and there are vests that give bullet hit feedback and you have modifications out there that give a weapon kick. Sooner or later, it'll be relatively widely available (though not necessarily as popular).

My opinion too, basically.

Yeah, I love the iron sights. Simply zooming in a bit and tightening the crosshairs doesn't do it for me.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

My personal assumption is they are going for realism with the firearms, but speaking as someone who grew up around guns, used them for sport, and competed in competitors I can safely say that no freaking games I've ever played has ever, or will likely ever, get the feel "real", the sound, the smell, the feel of kick, frankly the sights in the game are just annoying, and this coming from a man who prefers that type of sight on his rifles over a scope.

I don't think video games will ever capture "the smell" of anything. Nor would I want them to

I can't say I want to feel any kick from video games either. "Force-Feedback" controllers vibrating while playing games was a concept that is almost as stupid as the Kinect.

Your assumption of an effort for realism in battlefield via iron sights, in my opinion, is very far off the mark.

The aspect of BFBC2 and its use of iron sights is a mechanic which requires players to *either* shoot effectively, or move. Not both.

You have to use cover effectively, move regularly, and aim carefully in order to be a good player.

I find it ironic that someone who claims to use firearms IRL thinks that aiming from the hip with crosshairs is acceptable. I don't find that to be the case at all. There is only one way I fire my weapons -- front sight on the target. I don't hold two handguns in each hand like a jackass, wasting ammunition. I don't "shoot from the hip" either. That clown business belongs in movies.

You are generally correct. At close enough ranges the use of a sight is not entirely necessary of course but if one actually wants to ensure they hit a target it is best that they observe the fundamentals of marksmanship, which I'm nearly certain includes a proper sight picture.

This is one of the many things I don't care for in the game MAG. You can use the iron sights but you do just as well simply firing from the hip most of the time. The iron sights simply add a layer of depth, another choice a player can make. The more choices there are, the less a player is reward for simply having a faster response as a poor response quickly made could very well be worse than a better response slowly made.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

You do know wind that affects the bullet is quite impossible to implement with our technology right? Wind, at least from what i have seen, is merely decoration used for levels. It has almost no tangible effect with bullets.

Mate you are way off the mark there, adding a wind or gravity factor to the trajectory is the simplest thing possible, and the calculations for all that are millions of times less taxing then model animations.
Games simply don't have any of that because it's far less fun.

Yes adding a factor to a trajectory is easy, but not an actual dynamic wind like i am talking about. I never seen an actual dynamic wind that changed realistically. I seen a SET wind strength for levels but not anything that changed realistically and dynamically. At least not "true" dynamic as some are mere imitations of a dynamic wind.

Um, any golf game withing the last 10 years has done just that...

so you're saying every golf game had a system of realistically changing wind speeds that are not a cycle of SET wind speeds that change on a timer to imitate a dynamic system? is that what you're saying?

most do yes. also the weather effects in a decent amount of free roam games have done so as well. GTA4 had wind change during storms of rain. You could see the wind pick up and raindrops show where. Same with Red Dead Redemption. An even better would be Metak Gear Solid 4's wind system. If you're hiding and smoking a cigarette and the wind is blowing towards the guards you're hiding from, they can smell the cigarette and detect you. Same goes for if you just came out from hiding in a dumpster. They can smell you depending on the wind direction. And the wind direction changes within the game. All you'd really have to do it have a few set patterns of wind, those sets be random in occurence, and you have a changing wind cycle. Golf games have it, free roam games have it. You make it seem like it would be so hard to add a wind dynamic into a video game. It's been done on multiple occasions.

Smoke? that is a model effect. It has nothing to do with the wind, merely an effect placed on a model then textured to look real. Sure wind changes but does it AFFECT anything? Dynamic wind =/= changing wind strength on a cycle. Its a gradual change, not the cycle radio stations use to pick their songs. That is an IMITATION dynamic system. The weather effects you list affect NOTHING. They are merely decoration.

So bringing up the fact that if wind blows cigarette smoke towards an enemy they smell it is just a model effect? It the wind blows away from enemies they don't smell it. I hardly call that "no affect". I'm sorry but I've brought up examples and all you do is try so hard to prove otherwise, or that it's not possible. We have the technology. As I explained with the wind in GTA 4 affecting the rain, it's happened. It's not their to effect bullets. Do you know that for wind to have any effect on a flying bullet, you'd have to be using a sniper rifle from long distance. How many times in a 3rd person shooter are you sniping? Not much, so of course it's not at a point where it can effect bullets. Also it would have to be some pretty damn strong winds to effect a snipers round from lond distance. It's not like you're gonna have a strong enough wind dynamic to affect SMG rounds from mid distace. The wind dynamic is there bud. There's just not that many things in video games that are affected by theme yet so they aren't as noticable as you'd like them to be.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

snip

well you're not gonna get the picture. you keep wanting a real wind dynamic in a VIDEO GAME. you're getting mad over nothing, and you're ignoring half of what i'm saying. there's no point in debating you if you're just going to ignore what i'm saying and keep blurting out the same thing about imitation wind dynamics verus a real wind dynamic. how the hell would a "real" wind dynamic not be scripted? it would have to be scripted with instances written in to have a random effect. what effect are you wanting other than "decoration"? what could wind effect in a game like GTA 4? if you can't answer that with an actual point than there's no point in arguing what doesn't matter

 

[LogicNProportion]

I like iron-sights in games.

I too, am someone who has grown up with guns, and I don't feel right in a shooter without them. When I first played Fallout 3, I noticed that your screen just got in closer, and it bothered the shit out of me.

It's why I also can't play shooters on a PC. I like to feel at least a rumble pack, and to be pulling a trigger. Sure it's not the real thing, and it probably never will be...but it helps...

One thing I don't miss from the transition from real guns to guns in games, is the ringing in my hands. xD

 

[tsb247]

The work needed to create the wind system is quite staggering.

I just keep finding relevant ways to bring this game into conversation... Oh well, here it goes again.

To my knowledge, ArmA 2 has the closest thing to a dynamic wind system that I have ever seen. It is not implimented to the greatest extent in the gameworld, but it can be tweaked and just plain messed with in the editor.

It appears to work by using random 'force vectors' that act in a uniform direction over a random area with random strengths (don't quote me on that - with some tweaking in the editor it can be COMPLETELY random). These forces move trees, grass, flags, and affect bullet flight accordingly. Otherwise, it is something that is easy to overlook. A dynamic wind system is not something that would be terribly difficult to create seeing as it would rely mainly on a random number generator and a physics engine of some kind; i.e. some force of some random strength acting on an object from a random direction over a period of time. The only factors that would need to be considered are the force, direction, and the duration of the force.

Having skimmed the posts relevent to this particular argument, I will also point out that ArmA 2 boasts a sandbox world.

 

[TheTaco007]

They're popular in "realistic" shooters, because it's a lot more realistic than the alternative. (Like what Halo does. The gun disappears, and we're just zoomed in with crosshairs.) There are no targeting reticles in real life. There are sights.

 

[the clockmaker]

Wow, this went to some really dark places.

To me, it has always been about immersion, not realism, but an impression of realism. In order to draw you deeper into the game, a lot of 'gamey' factors are often removed. It starts with removing overt references to the fact that the whole thing is fictional, (I mean, you don't hear NPCs shouting 'press R doctor freeman') and carries on until more and more things are displayed as the PC would see them, for example the transition from a 'mini-map' to an in game object map in far cry 2.

Iron sights are just there to draw us further into the game, to break down, as much as possible, the barrier between the PC and the player. For example, would stalking through pripyat feel anywhere near as awesome if, instead of peering nervously over the sights of a scavanged AK for the bloodsucker that just ran past, your cross hairs simply tightened a bit?

 

[Lem0nade Inlay]

I don't mind them, however I haven't ever used a gun in real life, so I can't chip in much on the "not really realistic" factor. But I tend to agree with you, in a lot of games they are annoying, but I think that in Battlefield or CoD games, they really belong. However in other games they are really not needed, and don't add realism at all. If you don't like them, don't use them.

And if you want to play multiplayer game without them, I recommend Counter Strike: Source.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

snip

well you're not gonna get the picture. you keep wanting a real wind dynamic in a VIDEO GAME. you're getting mad over nothing, and you're ignoring half of what i'm saying. there's no point in debating you if you're just going to ignore what i'm saying and keep blurting out the same thing about imitation wind dynamics verus a real wind dynamic. how the hell would a "real" wind dynamic not be scripted? it would have to be scripted with instances written in to have a random effect. what effect are you wanting other than "decoration"? what could wind effect in a game like GTA 4? if you can't answer that with an actual point than there's no point in arguing what doesn't matter

decoration = an effect placed on a level. no effect. In gta IV it affects utterly nothing other than to make the world more realistic.

Static wind system = a set wind strength throughout a level with a set effect. This doesn't change.

scripted wind syetm = pre-set weather strengths and effects that are changed on a cycle. usually unrealistic as a hard rain would suddenly appear out of nowhere. Look at the post regarding the changing wind strengths every 20 seconds. This isn't dynamic, its just a repeated cycle like the system radio stations use to pick their songs.

dynamic wind system = A system in which wind and weather strength gradually changes without a set cycle.

The difference? one is set in stone, the other is a set cycle, and the other one acts on a gradual slope. What am i getting mad at? You ignore the other posts which i clearly explain what i mean yet you ignore them. I keep pointing to their direction, only for you to mistake model effects and other entities as an actual wind system. hell in my original post i said it was quite impossible. see where i am coming from? The work needed to create the wind system is quite staggering.

And yet you still haven't explained to me what a dynamic wind system would effect in a 3rd person free roam game like GTA 4. Realistically, it wouldn't affect anything enough to impact the gameplay unless there was a strong wind in a video game like that. That's probably why there isn't a dynamic wind system yet. There's no need for it. When the time comes that games need to be THAT realistic, a dynamic wind system will be made. And I highly doubt it will be as hard to make as you keep saying it is. We're talking about companies with dozens of employees and a mass amount of resources. Not even ten years ago you'd probably think character models in video games reacting realisticly to getting shot would be impossible. Then the Euphoria engine was made. Now instead of just dropping like flies, or falling over in a contortioned pile, characters modeled with this physics engine will sometimes grab at the wound, stagger, and fall down to their "death" realistically. It works especially well in the newer UFC games. A dynamic wind system will be made when it's needed.

 

[Funkysandwich]

I don't have a problem with iron sights. Can't see why it would even cause a problem.

Not worth a 7 page thread guys.

 

[Krylock]

So a friend gifted me Battlefield Bad Company 2 on Steam for Christmas and I will admit that despite more normal distaste for FPS games, especially ones that try for "realism" it's not that bad, the RPG elements of gaining XP and gathering upgrades has lured me in a little.

But one thing is bugging me, what the hell is up with the sights? I noticed it with Fallout: NV and other games that I've played, every game seems to have "iron sights" when you aim, what was wrong with the damn cross hairs spread when normal and tighter when pulled in?

My personal assumption is they are going for realism with the firearms, but speaking as someone who grew up around guns, used them for sport, and competed in competitors I can safely say that no freaking games I've ever played has ever, or will likely ever, get the feel "real", the sound, the smell, the feel of kick, frankly the sights in the game are just annoying, and this coming from a man who prefers that type of sight on his rifles over a scope.

Hahaha! I have never seen so much failure in a post before

 

[AnAngryMoose]

every game seems to have "iron sights" when you aim, what was wrong with the damn cross hairs spread when normal and tighter when pulled in?

.

Well, here's a few reasons I would imagine it exists:

1. It feels good. Left trigger to zoom, right to fire.... it's a simple mechanic that feels good to a lot of gamers.

2. It's more natural. I feel wierd when I zoom in and the crosshairs just gets smaller as the gun sits on the right of the screen. It just doesn't feel as immersive.

3. It's a tactical mechanic. You sacrifice movement speed for greater accuracy.

This. I really like them in games. Makes things feel a bit more tense for me when you're walking slowing around a corner looking down the barrel of a gun.