What's with "Iron Sights" in today's games?

[GrizzlerBorno]

The problem as i see it is that the OP thinks Iron-sights try to make games realistic.
They don't. They try to make games "Immersive". It feels good when you aim down and shoot a stupid hip-firer in the head. It adds to the tactile feel of it and, in most cases, works great. A similar system of immersion, is the little diagonal cross that appears when you hit people in most modern FPS Multi. Think about how much LESS fun you have when killing AI in SP because that diagonal cross does not show.

 

[Snotnarok]

Here's the reason, guns use Iron Sights in real life, now in game iron sights add a whole new element especially when you have attachable optics.

Gun has iron sights you don't like? Well then give up a perk on the gun and you get a laser sight!

It adds to the give and take of some guns pretty much. Though why anyone adds laser sights to SMGs in most games humors me since it's typically better to just fire at the hip

 

[Seagoon]

ha! nice one! what i mean is that iron sights in fps games make the whole thing more realistic and belivable, the crappy aiming system in fallout 3 and halo annoyed me and a lot of other gamers

 

[josemlopes]

I find it ironic that someone who claims to use firearms IRL thinks that aiming from the hip with crosshairs is acceptable. I don't find that to be the case at all. There is only one way I fire my weapons -- front sight on the target. I don't hold two handguns in each hand like a jackass, wasting ammunition. I don't "shoot from the hip" either. That clown business belongs in movies.

Who the hell is taking about shooting from the hip or using two guns? I'm talking about a bloody video game, sighting in a target in real life is vastly different then a video game, breathing for example matters, the only time I ever saw breathing in a video game I wanted to hunt down the developers with a rusty butter knife to really make it hurt, judging the wind, and humans (or in my case animals) don't bounce around like humming birds on meth.

And the sights in the games I've see don't work the same as they do in real bloody life anyway, they are basically cross hairs with a different more annoying skin, I'd love to see a game that tried to get the sights "real", players would murder the developers, hell I've yet to see a scope{/b] done correctly in a video game, you do know they don't work as point and click right?

At least for the scope

Skip to 2:10

 

[Something Amyss]

I can see your point and this is totally a rant on my part, but I hate the current state of the 'RPG'. Elder Scrolls, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic - these are the games I want to be referred to as role playing games. Not first person shooters with a shallow leveling system or some loot to equip.

No, for the most part I agree with you. The fact that Borderlands was labeled a FPRPG is dumb beyond measure. It's an FPS with, at best, "RPG elements" tacked on. Even that seems kind of sparse in a game that mostly just sells itself on fat loot and lots of guns.

I didn't even see this post. Doesn't surprise me that this kid want's to debate on whether or not Fallout 3 is an FPS RPG.

That doesn't seem to relate to the post I quoted. At first, I though it must be related to me instead because of that, but it seems you have a grudge against PK. Please don't bring me into it. Or use me as a platform to rant.

 

[MrGalactus]

I think once you've started using them, not using them is a bit irritating, especially on a console. Like playing CoD for a long time then playing Half Life kinda messes you up. I figure devs are putting it in their games because they're used to using it themselves.

 

[BrionJames]

because point shooting only works in close quarters, no one uses point shooting beyond 10 yards. Yes they are going for realism, but its still not (aside from the fact its a video game) "realistic". No one survives a 12 gauge buckshot rounds to the chest, well maybe if your wearing body armor, but not some asshole with a knife. Also no one survives being shot six times in the chest with an AR. As far as iron sights go, it's more realistic to aim and shoot a guy 30-40 yards away aiming down the sights then hip firing it.

 

[moretimethansense]

I find it ironic that someone who claims to use firearms IRL thinks that aiming from the hip with crosshairs is acceptable. I don't find that to be the case at all. There is only one way I fire my weapons -- front sight on the target. I don't hold two handguns in each hand like a jackass, wasting ammunition. I don't "shoot from the hip" either. That clown business belongs in movies.

Who the hell is taking about shooting from the hip or using two guns? I'm talking about a bloody video game, sighting in a target in real life is vastly different then a video game, breathing for example matters, the only time I ever saw breathing in a video game I wanted to hunt down the developers with a rusty butter knife to really make it hurt, judging the wind, and humans (or in my case animals) don't bounce around like humming birds on meth.

And the sights in the games I've see don't work the same as they do in real bloody life anyway, they are basically cross hairs with a different more annoying skin, I'd love to see a game that tried to get the sights "real", players would murder the developers, hell I've yet to see a scope{/b] done correctly in a video game, you do know they don't work as point and click right?

You do know wind that affects the bullet is quite impossible to implement with our technology right? Wind, at least from what i have seen, is merely decoration used for levels. It has almost no tangible effect with bullets.

Sorry but have to correct you there, wind is not "impossible to implement with our technology" there are games that have done it two examples being:
Sniper Elite
Sniper: Ghost Warrior

Both of these games have implemented both wind and gravity in to their gameplay, it is debatable how well they've done it, but they have done it.

Really? Wonder why they never mentioned that in any reviews or anything. You sure it was actual dynamic wind and not an imitation to actual dynamic wind?

If you mean did the wind chang direction and strength during the course of the level, then no, but I don't think that it's a lack of technology that stops them putting it in.

In COD4 there is a sniping mission where you have to compensate for the changing wind, it changes completely and randomly several times during a twenty second sniping sequence, it isn't realistic it's just annoying.
If they implemented dynamic wind many (not me) would complain as the shot they compensated for misses as the wind changed strength, also the wind doesn't change direction dramatically all that often so if they did a truly realistic version of the wind the only difference would be a slight ebb and flow during missions, in the end making an engine to simulate wind for a game would be more effort than many developers are willing to put in to a mechanic that would only have niche appeal anyway.

on a console shooter yes it would go unnoticed but a sandbox PC game would be a hit. It would be the wind equivalent to crysis. However it may lag like dynamic water does so that may be a limiting factor. A dynamic mechanic on a linear level would be a waste but not in a sandbox environment.

One problem with that though, How many sandbox shooters can you name?

It doesn't HAVE to be a sandbox shooter.

A dynamic mechanic on a linear level would be a waste but not in a sandbox environment

It doesn't HAVE to be a sandbox shooter.

Could you make up your mind pal?

The point I was trying to make is that there aren't all that many sandbox shooters(that aren't also RPGs), at least not that many good ones, but as I said dynamic wind would be a largely unnecessary and possibly frustrating mechanic.

You'd either have a mechanic that almost never came up meaning a possibly expensive engine would go to waste, or you'd have the wind changing often enough to break your suspension of disbelief, I'm not saying it couldn't work but it would likely only have niche appeal.

One way it could perhaps be done right is you were placed in a large environment with clear objectives but a degree of freedom in how to achieve them (What the Cry engine is supposed to be), the wind playing a factor in how you'd approach the problem.

Just my two pence.

 

[moretimethansense]

I find it ironic that someone who claims to use firearms IRL thinks that aiming from the hip with crosshairs is acceptable. I don't find that to be the case at all. There is only one way I fire my weapons -- front sight on the target. I don't hold two handguns in each hand like a jackass, wasting ammunition. I don't "shoot from the hip" either. That clown business belongs in movies.

Who the hell is taking about shooting from the hip or using two guns? I'm talking about a bloody video game, sighting in a target in real life is vastly different then a video game, breathing for example matters, the only time I ever saw breathing in a video game I wanted to hunt down the developers with a rusty butter knife to really make it hurt, judging the wind, and humans (or in my case animals) don't bounce around like humming birds on meth.

And the sights in the games I've see don't work the same as they do in real bloody life anyway, they are basically cross hairs with a different more annoying skin, I'd love to see a game that tried to get the sights "real", players would murder the developers, hell I've yet to see a scope{/b] done correctly in a video game, you do know they don't work as point and click right?

You do know wind that affects the bullet is quite impossible to implement with our technology right? Wind, at least from what i have seen, is merely decoration used for levels. It has almost no tangible effect with bullets.

Sorry but have to correct you there, wind is not "impossible to implement with our technology" there are games that have done it two examples being:
Sniper Elite
Sniper: Ghost Warrior

Both of these games have implemented both wind and gravity in to their gameplay, it is debatable how well they've done it, but they have done it.

Really? Wonder why they never mentioned that in any reviews or anything. You sure it was actual dynamic wind and not an imitation to actual dynamic wind?

If you mean did the wind chang direction and strength during the course of the level, then no, but I don't think that it's a lack of technology that stops them putting it in.

In COD4 there is a sniping mission where you have to compensate for the changing wind, it changes completely and randomly several times during a twenty second sniping sequence, it isn't realistic it's just annoying.
If they implemented dynamic wind many (not me) would complain as the shot they compensated for misses as the wind changed strength, also the wind doesn't change direction dramatically all that often so if they did a truly realistic version of the wind the only difference would be a slight ebb and flow during missions, in the end making an engine to simulate wind for a game would be more effort than many developers are willing to put in to a mechanic that would only have niche appeal anyway.

on a console shooter yes it would go unnoticed but a sandbox PC game would be a hit. It would be the wind equivalent to crysis. However it may lag like dynamic water does so that may be a limiting factor. A dynamic mechanic on a linear level would be a waste but not in a sandbox environment.

One problem with that though, How many sandbox shooters can you name?

It doesn't HAVE to be a sandbox shooter.

A dynamic mechanic on a linear level would be a waste but not in a sandbox environment

It doesn't HAVE to be a sandbox shooter.

Could you make up your mind pal?

The point I was trying to make is that there aren't all that many sandbox shooters(that aren't also RPGs), at least not that many good ones, but as I said dynamic wind would be a largely unnecessary and possibly frustrating mechanic.

You'd either have a mechanic that almost never came up meaning a possibly expensive engine would go to waste, or you'd have the wind changing often enough to break your suspension of disbelief, I'm not saying it couldn't work but it would likely only have niche appeal.

One way it could perhaps be done right is you were placed in a large environment with clear objectives but a degree of freedom in how to achieve them (What the Cry engine is supposed to be), the wind playing a factor in how you'd approach the problem.

Just my two pence.

its has to be a sandbox but the shooter part is up in the air. that is what i meant.

But then what benefit would it recive from dynamic wind?

I suppose if there was archery involved or perhaps an open world Sailing/Pracy sim ala Sea Dogs or Pirates it could be of benefit, but I really can't think of any other types of game that dynamic wind would be fo benefit in.

 

[=HCFS=Discoman]

My personal assumption is they are going for realism with the firearms, but speaking as someone who grew up around guns, used them for sport, and competed in competitors I can safely say that no freaking games I've ever played has ever, or will likely ever, get the feel "real", the sound, the smell, the feel of kick, frankly the sights in the game are just annoying, and this coming from a man who prefers that type of sight on his rifles over a scope.

Congratulations! You have an opinion!

Personally, I love the iron sights. The fact they're shit on a few weapons is an issue of it's own, but in general they're awesome and they give the game a more realistic feel. A tip btw - just because you can't replicate every single bit of reality doesn't mean the strive for realism is entirely useless. Goes for just about every other aspect in both games and real life as well.

Oh and there are vests that give bullet hit feedback and you have modifications out there that give a weapon kick. Sooner or later, it'll be relatively widely available (though not necessarily as popular).

iron sights are quite realistic. pretty much anyone who shoots a gun always aims with them if they want to hit something. no sight shooting is just for laying down cover fire in one general direction. which is why some games have no crosshairs.
as an aiming option, it really is a more realistic way of aiming a gun. only paintball guns are aimed by looking down the side of the gun.

 

[Anarchemitis]

It's an aesthetic.
No one is going to make an absolutely realistic game because no one wants to pass out when doing a barrel roll unless you already have 150 flight hours.

 

[Captain Pirate]

There is an option that gives you a different zoom. It isn't like Fallout 3, but it lowers the gun on your screen when you aim, so that your aiming reticule is about an inch above the weapon giving you a larger field of view. Try it, you might prefer it.

I think I will, thanks for telling me this.

I recently found the Caravan Shotgun; awesome, I'd been wanting one of these. Looks epic, and has two reload capacity instead of one.
I aim down the sights. There aren't any. Just a fucking screw in the way. I think it's a screw, no idea what else it is. Whatever it could be, it's blocking my view and not showing me where I'll be shooting.

 

[Jarcin]

Getting over my late-poster phobia here,

Iron sight focus, compared to the cross hairs getting smaller, shows focus and intent. I don't know many people that can aim down a sight and have another eye go and search their surroundings. Aiming down the barrel gives you the disadvantage of TRYING to hit your target somewhere, like in the head. Smaller cross hairs give your the ability to just back into a corner and see your entire threat surroundings, instead of where you are aiming,

 

[The Diabolical Biz]

[Fallout 3] is just an action game with RPG elements.

That's where you fail, friend. The above is your opinion - not mine.

I believe Fallout 3 to be an RPG. So my logic still stands.

Your logic of 'I believe it to be true, so it is'?

What? That's not logic??

You may not have meant it like that but that's what you just said...

 

[MiracleOfSound]

I think I will, thanks for telling me this.

I recently found the Caravan Shotgun; awesome, I'd been wanting one of these. Looks epic, and has two reload capacity instead of one.
I aim down the sights. There aren't any. Just a fucking screw in the way. I think it's a screw, no idea what else it is. Whatever it could be, it's blocking my view and not showing me where I'll be shooting.

The Cowboy repeater has by far the worst iron sight in the game. Pity, it's a badass gun in every other way.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

You do know wind that affects the bullet is quite impossible to implement with our technology right? Wind, at least from what i have seen, is merely decoration used for levels. It has almost no tangible effect with bullets.

Mate you are way off the mark there, adding a wind or gravity factor to the trajectory is the simplest thing possible, and the calculations for all that are millions of times less taxing then model animations.
Games simply don't have any of that because it's far less fun.

Yes adding a factor to a trajectory is easy, but not an actual dynamic wind like i am talking about. I never seen an actual dynamic wind that changed realistically. I seen a SET wind strength for levels but not anything that changed realistically and dynamically. At least not "true" dynamic as some are mere imitations of a dynamic wind.

Um, any golf game withing the last 10 years has done just that...

so you're saying every golf game had a system of realistically changing wind speeds that are not a cycle of SET wind speeds that change on a timer to imitate a dynamic system? is that what you're saying?

most do yes. also the weather effects in a decent amount of free roam games have done so as well. GTA4 had wind change during storms of rain. You could see the wind pick up and raindrops show where. Same with Red Dead Redemption. An even better would be Metak Gear Solid 4's wind system. If you're hiding and smoking a cigarette and the wind is blowing towards the guards you're hiding from, they can smell the cigarette and detect you. Same goes for if you just came out from hiding in a dumpster. They can smell you depending on the wind direction. And the wind direction changes within the game. All you'd really have to do it have a few set patterns of wind, those sets be random in occurence, and you have a changing wind cycle. Golf games have it, free roam games have it. You make it seem like it would be so hard to add a wind dynamic into a video game. It's been done on multiple occasions.