I like saying that I disagree with the president on some issues. Can you do that in a communist government? seriously, can you? I don't know.
What's Wrong With Communism?
- Thread starter GoldenCondor
- Start date
Recommended Videos
1. It's a Utopian theory and doesn't really work in a real society. It makes the basic assumption that no one will ever game the system and that everyone will put extra resources into helping society. AKA, it depends on humans not to act like humans, because most people won't do that. "To each according to his need, from each according to his ability" never really works out the way it's supposed to(not that anyone ever really tries).GoldenCondor said:
2. It doesn't Scale. Even Marx said this, that any nearby capalitist societies would out perform a communist one, so it only really works if the world becomes communist. Any economy that only works on the largest or smallest scales isn't feasible.
3. It has the tedency to encourage totalitarian socieites in order to implement, who, in theory, are supposed to set up the communist society and then step down once it's up and running. The problem is, said people never actual want to leave their positions of power, so you never get to the "Factory that belongs to the workers" stage, rather a "Factory that belongs to the state, and the workers are still treated like crap".
And as an Aside, there's no such thing as "Free" healthcare. There's state funded healthcare and how well it works is for another thread altogether, but by no means is it free.
As a former communist I can say a lot: The premise of communism is the intermediary state of the "proletarian dictatorship", which presumes that a platonist politician exists. It just so happens, that if you give one man too much power, he will end up forgetting about his platonist ideals, and become an actual dictator. So rather than working towards making communities independent from the government (which is what communism works towards) he will attempt to remain in power.
Social liberalism, on the other hand, has proven very useful, and it's this Obama is working toward if his promises are anything to go by.
Social liberalism, on the other hand, has proven very useful, and it's this Obama is working toward if his promises are anything to go by.
Communists need to stop dreaming of their perfect government that will never work. Humans always have and always will feel the need to be superior, and typically this is done by comparing themselves to other humans, be it the neighbourhood drunk or some random starving African (and they can feel superior and benevolent if they donate some of their own wealth to help out said starving african).
My point being, nobody will ever accept a perfect society unless they are mentally conditioned from birth or something a la Brave New World (and even in that they were conditioned to feel like they had a better life than higher-grade humans).
It is imperfect in theory because it's a great big "what if human nature was like this" idea, and thus it is very broken in practice.
My point being, nobody will ever accept a perfect society unless they are mentally conditioned from birth or something a la Brave New World (and even in that they were conditioned to feel like they had a better life than higher-grade humans).
It is imperfect in theory because it's a great big "what if human nature was like this" idea, and thus it is very broken in practice.
You're... thinking of Socialism. That's okay... I guess, not really, depends on how it's done, but still, what you're think of is S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M. That isn't communism. That is the enemy of Ayn Rand's everywhere. /slightly smart joke targeted towards MarxismGoldenCondor said:
Nobody REALLY belives that Obama's going to make communist America, that's just political propaganda to scare some of the more idiotic independent voters. Like saying how Obama's really an African terrorist bent on destroying America or how McCain would've died in office if he'd won.wrightry said:
you bring a smile to my face Akai. you know... some people you just can't trust them to be consistent and loyal. You my friend are like clockwork, a well oiled, predictable and repetitive clockwork. you give fanatically passionate a good rep. I could argue some of your points but like you just said, fuck it. nobody is going to change their beliefs ,its early and not worth talking over.Akai Shizuku said:
whats really funny is that you've talked this over with us caps so much that you can cut the shit and go strait to the point of contention. no mucking about in the principles and things. lol, just shows how much we talk about it here.
Communism wouldn't work even if people were perfectly altruistic and only interested in helping their fellow man. It makes economic calculation impossible, and economic decisions random. See "Socialism" by von Mises, 1922.
Anywhere people try to implement it, they start dropping like flies to starvation and/or start killing each other in a bid to stay alive. See Russian Famine of 1921. Millions perished because they subscribed to this retarded idea.
Anywhere people try to implement it, they start dropping like flies to starvation and/or start killing each other in a bid to stay alive. See Russian Famine of 1921. Millions perished because they subscribed to this retarded idea.
The thing is that in practice Communism boils down to 'you don't have to do shit and you'll still get an even share of everything' so nobody does anything expecting everything. It's the promise of a shiny, happy utopia where everyone is content, money doesn't exist, and all people do is further their lives through knowledge and exploration al la Star Trek. In fact, nobody wants to do the work of providing the masses with food w/o compensation or the prospect of advancement due to their place in the world.
The whole argument is flawed, but then so is every other social model. There's really no actual upside to a Republic: the morally bankrupt get obscenely rich by stomping on the lower classes, and the lower classes can't change because of limits to education based on wealth.
Only when there are no people to argue over how to run the world will it ever be perfect. Sad, but true.
The whole argument is flawed, but then so is every other social model. There's really no actual upside to a Republic: the morally bankrupt get obscenely rich by stomping on the lower classes, and the lower classes can't change because of limits to education based on wealth.
Only when there are no people to argue over how to run the world will it ever be perfect. Sad, but true.
Exactly why the USA might do great with Communism (MAYBE socialism) because it already has a stable economy (if you ignore everything it owes to China).keinushi said:
This has a lot to do with mentality though. Everyone has been out for themselves for the last milleniums so you can't expect people to adapt immideatly. If you were to try it for some 200-300 years or so perhaps people would be different. For example, communities far from the cities with a harsh climate usually has very helpful and trusting inhabitants because that's what they needed to survive. I think that most native tribes were like that before they were discovered and "civilized".This shows that human beings are not inheritently selfish. That depends on the environment where they are raised. They can adapt to being helpful if it's on their own and the communities interest. We are flock animals after all and we wouldn't be that if everyone was inherently selfish.coldalarm said:
Also, I don't think there's anything in the books about Communism that states that everyone has to have the exact same wage all the time. If you have a graph that shows the wealth of the population you will se that it very much resembles a set of stairs were the difference between each step becomes larger the higher and further you come. The idea is that you cut a bit from the ones above the middle and give that to the lower ones the lower ones would contribute more to society.
They also define the highest steps as the ones that works the hardest and most. There are very few jobs that are actually worth less than any other job. A doctor for example has to rely on nurses and cleaners to do his job. It might look more important but he couldn't do it on his own therefore the other ones are just as important.
I might be thinking about Socialism though.
Mankind was sort of communist from the beginning. The founder of the first stone tools probably didn't charge the other tribe members for making their own. Most people that study this suggests that they had one appointed stone-tool maker that spent some of the days making stone tools and he/she got fed until their needs were satisfied.
The way things work now is that corporations runs a lot of the show and as much as one might think politicians are very inefficient CEOs aren't that much more efficient. The only real difference is that a government is a lot easier to keep track of and you can demand politicians to retire. Also, a politicians job is to make it as much of the population as happy as possible while a CEO's job is to make money for the corporation. I'd rather trust the politician. What you choose in the end, i guess, is if you prefer as many people as possible happy or if you want some people to be happier than the rest.
I think the problem with most of the communist countries to this day is that they were achieved trough armed revolutions rather than elections. The revolutionaries were the lower-class under-educated people and therefore they had no clue how to actually make this kind of government work. A lot of the well-educated people left those countries because the revolutionaries saw them as their old enemies that they wanted revenge on and they could provide for their families much better were they got paid better. You need disciplined intellectuals to make a government like this to work.
The way i see it. Communism could work if the change came slowly so people could adapt and it was worldwide so the selfish couldn't escape their duty. If mankind worked together towards creating a better world for everyone rather than just their own we could probably advance in technology faster and thus everyone could have it just as good as the CEOs have it today. It would just be a matter of time.
I would very much like comments on this so i can improve on my reasonings and find solutions to the problems you see.
-It's against all America stands for
-Communism doesn't work too well, literally says so in our economic books
-universal health care isn't really that communistic, seeing as both the UK and Canada has it.
-All communistic countries are really scary
-Communism doesn't work too well, literally says so in our economic books
-universal health care isn't really that communistic, seeing as both the UK and Canada has it.
-All communistic countries are really scary
communism means everyone is equal. however, to quote animal farm (book about communism, you should read it.) some people are more equal than others. you toil till the day you die, where the government sells your corpse for meat. (Boxer) (the words in paren. are animal farm refrences) the government is ruled by fear and corruption, and finally Communism cannot support itself. look at the U.S.S.R. it collapsed because it could not support its Communist regime.
*points at people like Bernard Madoff*Knight Templar said:
OT: I've always liked the idea, but like anything I would change some of the stuff the "regular" communist states have done
Communist-democratic state FTW!!!
Communist-republic state FTW if the other on don't work!!!
Perhaps, but that is precisely the problem. Communism can't work because people like that will always end up leading it. That has been the case in every society that has tried it. It is just too easy of a system to corrupt. I have said it before and I will say it again, direct democracies work the best.Souplex said:
Communism can not maintain itself because it creates a stagnate market(see china before it welcomed capitalism).
It also via oppression controls its society which quickly turns into dictatorships.
Communism can work in small regions(farming communities,co operative communities,ect) but there's a tipping point where it becomes non functional because human society can be like herding cats.
It also via oppression controls its society which quickly turns into dictatorships.
Communism can work in small regions(farming communities,co operative communities,ect) but there's a tipping point where it becomes non functional because human society can be like herding cats.