What's Wrong With Communism?

Hedberger

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coldalarm said:
Foolishman1776 said:
Communism won't work because it's based on an ideal. It's based on the assumption that people will work together, totally selflessly, for the good of the whole group. This is impossible, it is impossible to be utterly selfless, all the time, and still have a working brain. Communism will never work, and I, for one say good. World peace and happiness may sound like a good idea, but to me it sounds boring.
Basically it. Communism is one of these ideas that sounds perfect. Everyone gets along, we all have a good time, no one is better than anyone else and so forth.

Real world situations aren't like that. I might be able to do more work in a day than Joe Bloggs, and further the community more, but I'd get the same as he does. In Communism, this is fair as everyone is "equal". In our western society, it's not fair. Ironically, our society is backwards. A footballer gets paid (in England, and we're talking professional) a huge sum for basically kicking a ball about, whereas a fire fighter who risks his life to save others gets paid a much lower wage. How on Earth is this correct?
This has a lot to do with mentality though. Everyone has been out for themselves for the last milleniums so you can't expect people to adapt immideatly. If you were to try it for some 200-300 years or so perhaps people would be different. For example, communities far from the cities with a harsh climate usually has very helpful and trusting inhabitants because that's what they needed to survive. I think that most native tribes were like that before they were discovered and "civilized".This shows that human beings are not inheritently selfish. That depends on the environment where they are raised. They can adapt to being helpful if it's on their own and the communities interest. We are flock animals after all and we wouldn't be that if everyone was inherently selfish.

Also, I don't think there's anything in the books about Communism that states that everyone has to have the exact same wage all the time. If you have a graph that shows the wealth of the population you will se that it very much resembles a set of stairs were the difference between each step becomes larger the higher and further you come. The idea is that you cut a bit from the ones above the middle and give that to the lower ones the lower ones would contribute more to society.

They also define the highest steps as the ones that works the hardest and most. There are very few jobs that are actually worth less than any other job. A doctor for example has to rely on nurses and cleaners to do his job. It might look more important but he couldn't do it on his own therefore the other ones are just as important.

I might be thinking about Socialism though.

Mankind was sort of communist from the beginning. The founder of the first stone tools probably didn't charge the other tribe members for making their own. Most people that study this suggests that they had one appointed stone-tool maker that spent some of the days making stone tools and he/she got fed until their needs were satisfied.

The way things work now is that corporations runs a lot of the show and as much as one might think politicians are very inefficient CEOs aren't that much more efficient. The only real difference is that a government is a lot easier to keep track of and you can demand politicians to retire. Also, a politicians job is to make it as much of the population as happy as possible while a CEO's job is to make money for the corporation. I'd rather trust the politician. What you choose in the end, i guess, is if you prefer as many people as possible happy or if you want some people to be happier than the rest.

I think the problem with most of the communist countries to this day is that they were achieved trough armed revolutions rather than elections. The revolutionaries were the lower-class under-educated people and therefore they had no clue how to actually make this kind of government work. A lot of the well-educated people left those countries because the revolutionaries saw them as their old enemies that they wanted revenge on and they could provide for their families much better were they got paid better. You need disciplined intellectuals to make a government like this to work.

The way i see it. Communism could work if the change came slowly so people could adapt and it was worldwide so the selfish couldn't escape their duty. If mankind worked together towards creating a better world for everyone rather than just their own we could probably advance in technology faster and thus everyone could have it just as good as the CEOs have it today. It would just be a matter of time.

I would very much like comments on this so i can improve on my reasonings and find solutions to the problems you see.
 

UsefulPlayer 1

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-It's against all America stands for
-Communism doesn't work too well, literally says so in our economic books
-universal health care isn't really that communistic, seeing as both the UK and Canada has it.
-All communistic countries are really scary
 

Xero Scythe

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communism means everyone is equal. however, to quote animal farm (book about communism, you should read it.) some people are more equal than others. you toil till the day you die, where the government sells your corpse for meat. (Boxer) (the words in paren. are animal farm refrences) the government is ruled by fear and corruption, and finally Communism cannot support itself. look at the U.S.S.R. it collapsed because it could not support its Communist regime.
 

Goldbling

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Knight Templar said:
Nemorov said:
Knight Templar said:
But how do you feel about Communism?
From what I can tell, I feel like maybe it gives too much credit to every one playing nice. Because it only takes a few greedy people to fuck it up.
The same could be said of the exsisting system in the US. The current economic state of the world is due to a few greedy people, so it isn't just communism that has this problem.

Of course no real communist state has ever exsisted, so Its hard to be sure what one would be like.
*points at people like Bernard Madoff*

OT: I've always liked the idea, but like anything I would change some of the stuff the "regular" communist states have done

Communist-democratic state FTW!!!
Communist-republic state FTW if the other on don't work!!!
 

KingPiccolOwned

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Souplex said:
Scrythe said:
I wouldn't know, I've never been one.

My mother was born in Cuba, though, and from her example communism fucking sucks.

In theory, though, I suppose it could work in small countries...
That is a twisted mockery of the real communism, read the manifesto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto
Perhaps, but that is precisely the problem. Communism can't work because people like that will always end up leading it. That has been the case in every society that has tried it. It is just too easy of a system to corrupt. I have said it before and I will say it again, direct democracies work the best.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Communism can not maintain itself because it creates a stagnate market(see china before it welcomed capitalism).

It also via oppression controls its society which quickly turns into dictatorships.


Communism can work in small regions(farming communities,co operative communities,ect) but there's a tipping point where it becomes non functional because human society can be like herding cats.
 

A random person

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Crowser said:
Communism on paper is a great idea, but it does not translate well into reality (unless you have a very small group of people who you trust). It only takes one person who decides to take advantage of everyone else and things start going to hell.
Essentially this. I think communism could possibly work on small scales where the human aspects are manageable, but when it comes to countries it's pretty much the epitome of good in theory, bad in practice.
 

grimsprice

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wooo hooo. i've got 10 bucks american says this thread gets to 20 pages...
i love communism personally, it sparks such heated and entertaining threads here on the escapist.
 

Cari Scholtens

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In actuality communism as an ideal is quite respectable. One for all and all for one, as it were. However, you inevitably run into the fact that the hardest of workers reaps the same rewards as the laziest of bums and, at least in my mind, that is not the way things should work.
 

Ph33nix

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Communism only works when there is NO corruption if any corruption exists then the system falls apart into a dictator ship with two classes that are even more separated than than in the worst capitalist states. Capitalism on the other hand works with some amount of corruption there is a point where corruption will destroy capitalism but capitalism has a much higher threshold for corruption. Communism also often leads to a lower standard of living for average Joe for the sake of argument lets compare 1980s America to 1980s soviet union. In america most people owned cars radios televisions and a phone. In the soviet union most people did not own a car television or phone. some people did own these but the numbers where very few. Technology for the average people in communist countries is also often lower i.e. soviet union in the 80s farmers where using animal pulled plows primarily where as in the united states farmers where primarily using tractors and other mechanical equipment. Those are the logical reasons now for the illogical reasons.
from 1946-1991 the United States government used propaganda saying the commies are bad. Also people especially from the born between 1950-1969 generations remember still "Its the "rusky commies" who are pointing nukes at us and hate everthing we stand for" its just the same as how people who where over the age of 16 at some point durring WW2 won't buy japanesse cars.
man this was a much longer post than i intended.
 

Crescent Sun

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Communism was supposedly the next major form of government. Marx got the idea from tribal society, equal share amongst the members. This gave him the idea equal share for equal work.
America's earliest arguments was for laziness, why should I try hard if I get paid the same. This system was actually tried in the colonies, such as Jamestown, when farms were at full fruition.
But the argument of goverment used from Athens against the Spartan oligarchy, that it takes a very rare person to take power and not be corrupted.
Plus Marx said in the original treatise that communism cannot truly coexist with other governments, that it is a self conntained system.
 

xxiadamixx

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GoldenCondor said:
So really, what's wrong with Communism?
Everything. Corrupt leaders & lazy people. If you had the choice to go through 18 years of education to become a brain surgen, or 10 years to become a postman, and they pay the same because wealth is distributed, you'd sooner become a postman. Then you have a lack of skilled people in your country, the quality of life is lowered, and everyone is worse off.
In short, communism sucks.
 

geldonyetich

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Communism/Socialism are good ideas on paper, but the trouble is that these systems apparently don't have much in the way to stem corruption. I say this because you can look at a country like China, where bribes make the world go 'round, or Communist USSR, where Stalin tended to have you killed at the drop of a hat (the fellow did more ethnic cleansing than Hitler) and it's pretty clear what happened is that the people in charge allowed the power to corrupt them.

These systems could work if the government was run by angelic, uncorruptable individuals whose ability to rule was tempered by godlike intelligence and forbearance... but good luck having such an individual climb to the pile of popularity and stave off natural monkey-mind tendencies towards corruption.

That said, Democracy hasn't exactly removed corruption, so much as has limited and redirected the infection a bit. As the Neocons have been demonstrating fairly compellingly, we've got corrupt senators very much on-the-take from lobbyists representing fat cat businesses who are every bit as willing to profit off of human pain and suffering as anyone else in human history. Power still corrupts, it just moved on to corrupt certain individuals who have amassed it (lots of personal wealth).

Ideally, the population is supposed to be intelligent enough to recognize corruption when they see it and snuff it out by not voting for those candidates. What actually happens is we're all so completely snowballed by our candidates slick campaigns to the point where it takes formidable critical thinking to have any chance to penetrate the smoke screen. Because so few of us have that kind of time or energy, Democracy emerges, as our founding fathers have feared, as a baseless popularity contest.

In the end, politics has always been about herding cats, both at the bottom and at the top. Piss off enough cats among the bottom, and you get overthrown. Vote a cat to the top, and they're tempted to try their feline wiles at skimming the cream off society and getting away with it. Any political system is only as good as the intelligence of the people who make up the society. Anarchy is not the answer either, as it simply creates a power vacuum for us to be gobbled up by societies which cooperate on a larger scale.
 

'Stache

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GoldenCondor said:
OneBig Man said:
Isn't Communism basicaly the opposite of what America was founded on?
No. America was founded to oppose England's tight laws on religious freedom.
Actually, it was kind of founded to break free from the stifling economic and social restraints put on the colonies by Britain. You, sir, are thinking of the pilgrims.
So yeah, Communism is kind of against the principles America was founded on.
 

benjtfell

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Br
GoldenCondor said:
Too many Americans are afraid of it.
AND, others believe that Obama will make America a communistic society.
But, i see no problem in this. Communism is a great idea if a country already has a stable economy, and hey, free healthcare would be great. It's a great idea it's just been used wrong.

So really, what's wrong with Communism?
Britain has free healthcare and its not a communist country it just thinks. Hey lets make sure people don't die of easy to cure illnesses whereas America thinks ooo we could make money through this even if it does mean 5 year old dies Billy because can't get his cough medicine
 

benjtfell

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xxiadamixx said:
GoldenCondor said:
So really, what's wrong with Communism?
Everything. Corrupt leaders & lazy people. If you had the choice to go through 18 years of education to become a brain surgen, or 10 years to become a postman, and they pay the same because wealth is distributed, you'd sooner become a postman. Then you have a lack of skilled people in your country, the quality of life is lowered, and everyone is worse off.
In short, communism sucks.
Because a Democracy doesn't have any corrupt leaders or lazy people. And how is every worse off, in a communist socity resorces arn't wasted there are little homeless people and everyone is equal.

In a Democratic country people just have more freedoms, alowed to vote for whoever they want and alowed to make a ton of money.
 

Akai Shizuku

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grimsprice said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Firstly, my friend, t'was a mistake to create this thread. Entirely because everyone expects me to get into it, then I do get into it, then we argue for thirty freaking pages and everyone just gets sick of it. So a bit inconvenient on my end, but whatever.

Still, you've got a question, and it shall be answered.

"What's wrong with comminism?" Is a subjective question, and peoples' answers to it will be different depending on how much money is in their wallet.

I'm not going to get into specifics because I don't want to start a flame war and it's 5:33AM and I'm tired. But in general the wealthier people in the world (America) are afraid of all their "hard work" being taken from them and given to feed starving children in Africa.

Basic information on communism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

More in-depth information from the Young Communist League of Canada:
http://ycl-ljc.ca/en/who_we_are/faq.php

The biggest argument against communism is that it doesn't work because people are selfish. Why don't we change that, then? People can change.

My philosophy on this entire topic is "When there's a will, there's a way."
you bring a smile to my face Akai. you know... some people you just can't trust them to be consistent and loyal. You my friend are like clockwork, a well oiled, predictable and repetitive clockwork. you give fanatically passionate a good rep. I could argue some of your points but like you just said, fuck it. nobody is going to change their beliefs ,its early and not worth talking over.

whats really funny is that you've talked this over with us caps so much that you can cut the shit and go strait to the point of contention. no mucking about in the principles and things. lol, just shows how much we talk about it here.
What can I say? I want a better world, and you can't have one in capitalism.