Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?

wulf3n

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Gundam GP01 said:
wulf3n said:
IceForce said:
LifeCharacter said:
I always wonder if the people trotting out the "if you don't like it don't x it" argument understand that such a thing can be applied to all criticism. "Don't like on-disc DLC, don't buy the game!" "Don't like criticism, don't read it!" "Don't like this character or this story arc or this weapon or this enemy or this mission, don't play it!"
erttheking said:
If you don't like it don't play it is basically a term designed purely to say "I don't like what you have to say, shut up." How much of a cop out would it be if I just said to you "If you don't like my criticism, don't read it"?
I wonder how certain users on this site would react if I said "If you don't like the Gamers Are Dead articles, just don't read them."

Oh well, too late, I've said it now. Me and my big mouth.
It's a valid point though. Everyone would be a lot happier and friendlier if people just steered clear of the things they don't like.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here for a sec.
How is one supposed to know if they dont like something without reading/watching/playing it first?
It's not so much about not reading/watching/playing X, as it is not telling everyone who will listen why X sucks.
 

Dizchu

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wulf3n said:
It's not so much about not reading/watching/playing X, as it is not telling everyone who will listen why X sucks.
So how would you describe the people who find appeal in Quiet as a character, but find Kojima's approach to her absolutely juvenile? I mean I love Star Wars, but I also have big problems with George Lucas (as do many Star Wars fans).

Overall, MGS5 has had good reception. It's not so much about "steering clear of things you don't like", but being honest and pointing out the elements in works you do like that ultimately hinder the final project. I love System Shock 2, it is my second favourite game of all time. But I also know that the ending is completely terrible and am safe admitting that. Because of that criticism, should I just "steer clear" of my second favourite game of all time?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Gundam GP01 said:
Who says that chlorophyll is the only way to photosynthesize?

Or alternatively, who says she doesnt produce clorophyll?

Considering that she also seems to have some kind of super octopus/chameleon powers that flat out let her turn invisible, who to say that she doesnt have green, severely burned skin and is covering it up with her concealment powers?
Well, I suppose if she, like some of Earth's organisms, were using something other than or in addition to chlorophyll, she could be Red or Purple as well. Granted, that also most appears in water based organisms where different wavelengths of light get filtered out.

As to the second part? That would only work is Quiet's powers were a mental illusion effect. So unless Quiet looks very different when seen through video cameras, light doesn't work that way.
 

wulf3n

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DizzyChuggernaut said:
So how would you describe the people who find appeal in Quiet as a character, but find Kojima's approach to her absolutely juvenile? I mean I love Star Wars, but I also have big problems with George Lucas (as do many Star Wars fans).
How would I describe them? I don't know, I'd probably start with people.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
Overall, MGS5 has had good reception. It's not so much about "steering clear of things you don't like", but being honest and pointing out the elements in works you do like that ultimately hinder the final project. I love System Shock 2, it is my second favourite game of all time. But I also know that the ending is completely terrible and am safe admitting that. Because of that criticism, should I just "steer clear" of my second favourite game of all time?
Ultimately it's up to you. If it bugs you enough that you feel compelled to tell everyone how terrible the ending is then it may be worth avoiding it in future, as it can't be good for stress levels.

As you say there are 2 different scenarios
A) Hating something completely (but repeatedly going back to point out how much you hate it)
B) Liking something but recognizing its flaws.

Generally it's pretty easy to tell which camp people fall into.

With A if a person completely and utterly hates something then it probably wasn't intended for them in the first place. In which case consuming and subsequently telling everyone it sucks doesn't do anything other than start flame wars. So why bother?

With B it's less about what people say, and more about how they say it, which causes issue.
 

EternallyBored

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wulf3n said:
Gundam GP01 said:
wulf3n said:
IceForce said:
LifeCharacter said:
I always wonder if the people trotting out the "if you don't like it don't x it" argument understand that such a thing can be applied to all criticism. "Don't like on-disc DLC, don't buy the game!" "Don't like criticism, don't read it!" "Don't like this character or this story arc or this weapon or this enemy or this mission, don't play it!"
erttheking said:
If you don't like it don't play it is basically a term designed purely to say "I don't like what you have to say, shut up." How much of a cop out would it be if I just said to you "If you don't like my criticism, don't read it"?
I wonder how certain users on this site would react if I said "If you don't like the Gamers Are Dead articles, just don't read them."

Oh well, too late, I've said it now. Me and my big mouth.
It's a valid point though. Everyone would be a lot happier and friendlier if people just steered clear of the things they don't like.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here for a sec.
How is one supposed to know if they dont like something without reading/watching/playing it first?
It's not so much about not reading/watching/playing X, as it is not telling everyone who will listen why X sucks.
Except, like the thread complaining about how Polygon was complaining about Dungeon travellors 2, it often starts with people coming in to complain about people having a problem with something, when those people weren't actually going around telling everyone how much it sucks, they were content with keeping their judgements to themselves or their social circles until other people barged in and started asking them to defend their opinion.

Did we forget this entire topic started with someone specifically asking for why people had a problem with Quiet. The gaming forum isn't flooded with other people trying to tell everyone why Quiet sucks, we were content with very little discussion about it until other posters came in and asked for their opinion on her.

We can't simultaneously complain about people trying to tell everyone X sucks when the people that thinks X sucks are largely silent until someone specifically calls out people to defend their opinion in why they hate X.
 

wulf3n

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EternallyBored said:
Except, like the thread complaining about how Polygon was complaining about Dungeon travellors 2, it often starts with people coming in to complain about people having a problem with something, when those people weren't actually going around telling everyone how much it sucks, they were content with keeping their judgements to themselves or their social circles until other people barged in and started asking them to defend their opinion.

Did we forget this entire topic started with someone specifically asking for why people had a problem with Quiet. The gaming forum isn't flooded with other people trying to tell everyone why Quiet sucks, we were content with very little discussion about it until other posters came in and asked for their opinion on her.

We can't simultaneously complain about people trying to tell everyone X sucks when the people that thinks X sucks are largely silent until someone specifically calls out people to defend their opinion in why they hate X.
That still falls under the category of "If you don't like it, steer clear" mentality. If a person finds Polygon reviews to be too social justicy then they probably shouldn't bother reading them, as they're clearly not targeting audiences that don't like talking about social issues.
 

Don Incognito

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Metalix Knightmare said:
And Quiet is basically The End's abilities jacked up to 11, INCLUDING the partially being a plant thing. She breaths through her skin. She literally has no freaking lungs, she NEEDS exposure just so she doesn't suffocate!

If nothing else it's a much better excuse than "NANOMACHINES FOR EVERYTHING!" that MGS4 had.
If she has no lungs, how does she hum?

If she needs exposed skin, why the tights and glove?
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Don Incognito said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
And Quiet is basically The End's abilities jacked up to 11, INCLUDING the partially being a plant thing. She breaths through her skin. She literally has no freaking lungs, she NEEDS exposure just so she doesn't suffocate!

If nothing else it's a much better excuse than "NANOMACHINES FOR EVERYTHING!" that MGS4 had.
If she has no lungs, how does she hum?

If she needs exposed skin, why the tights and glove?
Allow me to answer your question with a question. How does an armless, man sized cyborg, slow down a 125 meter tall, 640 meter long, and 135 meter wide battleship going about 75 knots, and survive?
 

RedDeadFred

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It's because Kojima tried to take the high road and pretend that his fan-service was something deeper. He said people would feel ashamed when they found out the reasons for her being like that. Bullshit. Writing some flimsy excuses to have your character dress a certain way just detracts from the fan-service you're trying to present.

I doubt people would have been making nearly as big of a deal if Kojima hadn't made those comments. Would there still have been a reaction? Definitely. She's a highly sexualized character in a critically acclaimed game. There would have been people going after her just to have a reason to be contrarian towards the game in general because that's just something some people like to do.

Personally, I think it's an incredibly stupid design and some of her scenes are downright uncomfortable. But hey, whatever floats your boat. It's not the first time there's been gratuitous fan-service in a game, and it certainly won't be the last.
 

Don Incognito

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Don Incognito said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
And Quiet is basically The End's abilities jacked up to 11, INCLUDING the partially being a plant thing. She breaths through her skin. She literally has no freaking lungs, she NEEDS exposure just so she doesn't suffocate!

If nothing else it's a much better excuse than "NANOMACHINES FOR EVERYTHING!" that MGS4 had.
If she has no lungs, how does she hum?

If she needs exposed skin, why the tights and glove?
Allow me to answer your question with a question. How does an armless, man sized cyborg, slow down a 125 meter tall, 640 meter long, and 135 meter wide battleship going about 75 knots, and survive?
Abject stupidity on the part of a writer.

I don't look for realism in fiction. But, what I do look for is for fiction to be internally consistent. MGS fails on this, over and over again. Quiet is just the most obvious example.
 

MrFalconfly

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Gundam GP01 said:
Who says that chlorophyll is the only way to photosynthesize?

Or alternatively, who says she doesnt produce clorophyll?

Considering that she also seems to have some kind of super octopus/chameleon powers that flat out let her turn invisible, who to say that she doesnt have green, severely burned skin and is covering it up with her concealment powers?
So far the most efficient process of photosynthesis we have witnessed on this planet would involve a combination of Chlorophyll A, and Chlorophyll B, both of which reflect green light.

So if we limit ourselves to regular, run-of-the-mill physics and chemistry, Chlorophyll would be your best bet if you want to photosynthesise.

As for "who says she doesnt produce clorophyll?".

She isn't green.

Chlorophyll is green. If you want photosynthesis, then you want chlorophyll, which would colour Quiet green.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Gundam GP01 said:
altnameJag said:
As to the second part? That would only work is Quiet's powers were a mental illusion effect. So unless Quiet looks very different when seen through video cameras, light doesn't work that way.
What? I'm not talking about bending light around her like an invisibility cloak. I'm implying that she physically changes the color of her skin like an octopus based on what's behind her from the perspective of what she wants to hide from.
...which means she isn't absorbing the correct wavelengths of light. The reason plants are green is because they absorb all of the wavelengths of light besides green, leaving the green to reflect off of the surface, where it then travels to your eyes.

If she "changes color", she stop absorbing those other wavelengths, causing photosynthesis to fail.

We're at the point where both:
1) Nanomachines, Son
and
2) Because I, Kojima, wanted fanservice

...to be far more reasonable explanations than the dribble Kojima thought would make us feel ashamed of our thoughts and actions.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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MrFalconfly said:
Gundam GP01 said:
Who says that chlorophyll is the only way to photosynthesize?

Or alternatively, who says she doesnt produce clorophyll?

Considering that she also seems to have some kind of super octopus/chameleon powers that flat out let her turn invisible, who to say that she doesnt have green, severely burned skin and is covering it up with her concealment powers?
So far the most efficient process of photosynthesis we have witnessed on this planet would involve a combination of Chlorophyll A, and Chlorophyll B, both of which reflect green light.

So if we limit ourselves to regular, run-of-the-mill physics and chemistry, Chlorophyll would be your best bet if you want to photosynthesise.

As for "who says she doesnt produce clorophyll?".

She isn't green.

Chlorophyll is green. If you want photosynthesis, then you want chlorophyll, which would colour Quiet green.
She's also a chameleon though. She constantly shifts her skin tone to match her environment, so why wouldn't she keep her skin non-green that way?
 

Metalix Knightmare

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altnameJag said:
Gundam GP01 said:
altnameJag said:
As to the second part? That would only work is Quiet's powers were a mental illusion effect. So unless Quiet looks very different when seen through video cameras, light doesn't work that way.
What? I'm not talking about bending light around her like an invisibility cloak. I'm implying that she physically changes the color of her skin like an octopus based on what's behind her from the perspective of what she wants to hide from.
...which means she isn't absorbing the correct wavelengths of light. The reason plants are green is because they absorb all of the wavelengths of light besides green, leaving the green to reflect off of the surface, where it then travels to your eyes.

If she "changes color", she stop absorbing those other wavelengths, causing photosynthesis to fail.

We're at the point where both:
1) Nanomachines, Son
and
2) Because I, Kojima, wanted fanservice

...to be far more reasonable explanations than the dribble Kojima thought would make us feel ashamed of our thoughts and actions.
Not really dribble dude. She's the way she is ENTIRELY because of us. She has to use the artificail skin because of us, which also makes us responsible for her need to be scantily clad, and makes us partially responsible for ensuring she can't speak. I actually DO feel pretty freaking bad. Sorry you don't.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Don Incognito said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
Don Incognito said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
And Quiet is basically The End's abilities jacked up to 11, INCLUDING the partially being a plant thing. She breaths through her skin. She literally has no freaking lungs, she NEEDS exposure just so she doesn't suffocate!

If nothing else it's a much better excuse than "NANOMACHINES FOR EVERYTHING!" that MGS4 had.
If she has no lungs, how does she hum?

If she needs exposed skin, why the tights and glove?
Allow me to answer your question with a question. How does an armless, man sized cyborg, slow down a 125 meter tall, 640 meter long, and 135 meter wide battleship going about 75 knots, and survive?
Abject stupidity on the part of a writer.

I don't look for realism in fiction. But, what I do look for is for fiction to be internally consistent. MGS fails on this, over and over again. Quiet is just the most obvious example.
Actually, I'd say the tiny, armless, Robot person stopping the giant battleship and not dying is the more obvious example, but a lot of people here tend to get offended by the very idea of sexy women so who am I to argue?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Not really dribble dude. She's the way she is ENTIRELY because of us. She has to use the artificail skin because of us, which also makes us responsible for her need to be scantily clad, and makes us partially responsible for ensuring she can't speak. I actually DO feel pretty freaking bad. Sorry you don't.
Funny, I don't remember giving any input for the design or backstory of Quiet. Are you Hideo Kojima? Are you on his writing staff?

Metalix Knightmare said:
She's also a chameleon though. She constantly shifts her skin tone to match her environment, so why wouldn't she keep her skin non-green that way?
Light doesn't work that way. If she's photosynthesising, she's not human-flesh toned.

altnameJag said:
Gundam GP01 said:
altnameJag said:
As to the second part? That would only work is Quiet's powers were a mental illusion effect. So unless Quiet looks very different when seen through video cameras, light doesn't work that way.
What? I'm not talking about bending light around her like an invisibility cloak. I'm implying that she physically changes the color of her skin like an octopus based on what's behind her from the perspective of what she wants to hide from.
...which means she isn't absorbing the correct wavelengths of light. The reason plants are green is because they absorb all of the wavelengths of light besides green, leaving the green to reflect off of the surface, where it then travels to your eyes.

If she "changes color", she stop absorbing those other wavelengths, causing photosynthesis to fail.

We're at the point where both:
1) Nanomachines, Son
and
2) Because I, Kojima, wanted fanservice

...to be far more reasonable explanations than the dribble Kojima thought would make us feel ashamed of our thoughts and actions.
 

MrFalconfly

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Gundam GP01 said:
altnameJag said:
"She's a cameleon, she can hide the green colour".

Guys, you've just placed a layer of reflective material on top of your "solarcells".

If she's "invisible", the light won't interact with her, and she'll starve. If she has any other colour than green, then the chlorophyll won't be excited by the required wavelengths of light.

Either she's green (as in, she looks green to you and me and all the cameras), or she doesn't photosynthesise.

EDIT:

Also, invisibility would also have the effect that whoever is invisible would be blind, because the light that'd have otherwise interacted with their eyes (so they can see) will have passed through them in order to make them invisible.