Why are people so dumb about veganism?

[CheetoDust_v1legacy]

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/burger-meat-vegan-plant-based-hybrid-brewdog-twitter-reaction-a9142676.html

Long story short brewdog have released a "vegan" burger that also has a beef Patty on it and people are angry. Obviously it's a weird move but their goal is too encourage people to try plant based alternatives. By easing into it. Also, and here's the big thing, you don't have to be a vegan to eat vegan food. Someone asked why you would put vegan cheese on a beef burger to which I'm sure my lactose intolerant friend would inform them that he does it so he can eat a cheeseburger without shitting gravy.

I work in a cafe and of the 3 shelves of cakes and pastries we have half of the smallest shelf has a range of vegan cakes. And people lose their minds. One of them is a peanut butter cup! It's almost easier to make a vegan version of that. Like these people realise that their black coffee is vegan right? What's with the attitude of I'm not vegan so I won't eat anything labelled vegan?

Then there was the time Piers Morgan went ballistic on television because M&S made a vegan version of one of their popular sweets. This is a man who calls other people snowflakes blowing his lid because there's a vegan version of a jelly that he himself says he doesn't eat. Saying that if vegans want sweets they can have "kale nicies". Because everyone knows vegans only eat raw vegetables... And never eat things like popcorn, dark chocolate, potato chips, cake, sorbet or God knows how many others.

I'm also tired of being told by people that you need meat to be healthy. You can be healthy as a carnivore, a vegetarian or a vegan, as long as you eat the right amounts of healthy food and make sure you're getting necessary nutrients. But the people telling me that we need meat are almost universally overweight and unhealthy. Most people eat meat and... Well actually most people are unhealthy but I've never met a healthy meat eater who is aggressively anti-vegan food, probably because most healthy people realise that you shouldn't have a serving of meat and dairy with every meal of the day. Unless you're Jordan Peterson and you believe you should only eat meat all day every day like your colon has wronged you in some way and must be punished

SNL had a quick joke on weekend update about how vegan food is unpopular even though Gregg's in the UK have seen a massive surge in profits since introducing a vegan sausage roll and some of the fastest growing companies are producers of vegan meat alternatives.

My brother was a vegan when I was 10 and I remember people saying that veganism is just a fad, almost 20 years later and it's more popular than ever and everyone is still saying it's a fad.

So what are your thoughts on veganism? And aggressively anti-vegan folk? I get being annoyed by preachy vegans or those idiots spraying fake blood and picketing fast food places and supermarkets but why do people see the label vegan and lose their minds?

For balance here's a div who tried to sue her neighbor for having a BBQ:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-australia-49560208

Because just like you can be healthy as a meat eater or vegan, you can also be an asshole as either

For the record I'm vegetarian not vegan purely because when be i started losing weight and getting in shape I found it easier to get all my macro and micro nutrients, eat until I was full and still come in at my calories goal.

 

[Hawki]

So what are your thoughts on veganism? And aggressively anti-vegan folk? I get being annoyed by preachy vegans or those idiots spraying fake blood and picketing fast food places and supermarkets but why do people see the label vegan and lose their minds?

-I think veganism is a good thing, objectively speaking. The question of health aside, if you're a vegan, you're not eating animals, or using animal products. So, less animal deaths, less animal suffering, and a smaller carbon footprint.

-Anti-vegan folk and aggressive vegans are two sides of the same coin for me. Anti-vegans, to me, are people who know vegans have a point, but can't handle it, so lash out. Aggressive vegans are just as bad because they're so smug about their vegan 'identity,' and look down on anyone who isn't.

Extra thoughts aside, here's my take on veganism/vegetarianism. I don't have any moral objections to people eating animals. Plenty of animals eat animals on this planet, and humans have eaten animals for hundreds of thousands of years. There's an argument to be made that as sapient beings, we have the moral capacity to choose not to eat them, but even then, if someone's living a subsistance lifestyle, I think it's a bit rich for wealthy people to say that they shouldn't. However, what is undoubtedly a problem is our current system of agriculture - animal agriculture (e.g. cattle) is one of the lead drivers of deforestation. Factory farming is cruel. My current concerns are more for the overall state of the planet than individual animal welfare admittedly, because there's only so much land available, and a lot of that land could be used to feed people directly rather than using it for livestock feed (e.g. soy).

Bottom line for me is that I still eat meat, but focus on meat with a low carbon footprint (e.g. chicken and fish, as opposed to beef or pork). Admittedly, that's like, basic level actions for both animal welfare and carbon footprint stuff, so as high-horsey as vegans can be, I can't really criticize them because they've got a point.

 

[Agema]

I'm also tired of being told by people that you need meat to be healthy.

Purely incidentally, I know it isn't the case for the vast majority of people who will do fine on a vegan diet, but a friend of mine did have to eat meat. She went vegan, and she followed all the right nutritional guidance, and she gradually became more and more unwell. Eventually her GP told her she needed to start eating meat again, so she did and the problems went away. Christ only knows what was going on, but that's what it was for her.

* * *

I have no strong feelings about veganism. Personally, I like meat and I don't see a problem with eating meat. I have issues with maltreatment of animals, excessive use of antibiotics in livestock, I appreciate environmental concerns and I think people on average could and should eat less meat. However, fundamentally we're omnivores set up to eat meat, it's all perfectly natural, and with due care shouldn't be unethical or unusually burdensome for the planet. I'm happy with the prospect of vat-grown meat (when it's developed and cost effective).

I think in general terms one of the potential issues is that a great number of people aren't terribly well educated or informed, and there is a substantial risk that they will not know properly what they should eat for a good vegan diet, and we need to consider the risk of them suffering certain forms of malnutrition.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Then there was the time Piers Morgan went ballistic on television because

Because it's his job. His sole purpose in life is being angry and getting other people to be angry at literally anything he can. Especially at anything that looks remotely lefty.

But, getting back on topic, eh, Piers Morgan isn't required for people to freak out at stuff like this. Easier and comfortable to be vaguely outraged at whatever.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

I'm not against veganism (or at the least, vegetarianism), as long as those people aren't aggressively pushy about it. While I prefer meat myself, I'm not opposed to a vegetable alternative ever now and then...

 

[Terminal Blue]

Purely incidentally, I know it isn't the case for the vast majority of people who will do fine on a vegan diet, but a friend of mine did have to eat meat. She went vegan, and she followed all the right nutritional guidance, and she gradually became more and more unwell. Eventually her GP told her she needed to start eating meat again, so she did and the problems went away. Christ only knows what was going on, but that's what it was for her.

It was likely vitamin B12 deficiency. Human bodies can't make B12 on their own, and it's only naturally found in significant quantities in meat and animal products (especially organ meat).

However, things like fortified cereal and nondairy milk mean that most vegans can get enough B12 in their diet. Those who can't can also take supplements, which for most people should provide enough.

However, B12 deficiency is extremely common even in non-vegans. Many people who are currently not taking supplements really should be, and even people with diets high in B12 can be deficient because they can't naturally absorb enough. There is absolutely no reason to let B12 prevent you from going vegan save a perceived stigma about supplements being "unnatural". Nothing about modern meat production is natural either.

Overall, I agree that people should be encouraged to switch to a primarily plant based diet even if they still eat meat. It's healthier, and much, much better for the environment. However, it's also important to recognise that most vegans are ethical vegans. Describing a burger with animal products as "half vegan" is a bit insulting. I get that the message is that vegan alternatives are not just inferior versions of animal based products, and I like that message, but eating vegan alternatives while still eating meat does not make you vegan, or even "half vegan". It's a good and responsible move for your health and for the planet, but it's not vegan.

In general, I feel vegans have a right to be a bit preachy because their lifestyle is objectively better in so many ways. However, one trend that annoys me is Western vegans who spends a lot of their time complaining about meat consumption in non-Western countries. Sure Karen, people in the west literally eat so much meat we kill ourselves with heart disease, but poor people in Pakistan who sacrifice one cow a year are the real problem. I wonder what the motivation is there.

 

[CheetoDust_v1legacy]

I think in general terms one of the potential issues is that a great number of people aren't terribly well educated or informed, and there is a substantial risk that they will not know properly what they should eat for a good vegan diet, and we need to consider the risk of them suffering certain forms of malnutrition.

Absolutely. There was a story about Jaden Smith and his parents staging an intervention because his vegan diet was killing him. That was the sensationalist bent anyway, the actual story was he was eating one meal a day and is an over- privileged man child who has no clue how to feed himself. But no, let's blame veganism. Even though there's currently a big upward swing in high performing athletes switching to vegan diets and not starving themselves to death.

As to your friend that's weird, like evil said below I would assume B12 deficiency but I'm assuming her doctor knows what they were talking about.

.

In general, I feel vegans have a right to be a bit preachy because their lifestyle is objectively better in so many ways. However, one trend that annoys me is Western vegans who spends a lot of their time complaining about meat consumption in non-Western countries. Sure Karen, people in the west literally eat so much meat we kill ourselves with heart disease, but poor people in Pakistan who sacrifice one cow a year are the real problem. I wonder what the motivation is there.

My pet peeves with vegans is actually with environmental vegans. I enjoy vegan alternatives like Seitan and whatnot. But when people buy highly processed, packaged food,and fruit and veg that have a huge carbon footprint to transport while patting themselves on the back for how woke they are it does my head in. Yes, it is probably better but it's still bad. I had a customer once pull her reusable cup out of her bag and ask me to pour her coffee into it. I tried explaining that the cup was already dirty and going in the bin anyway so it was a bit pointless but she insisted that I could just use the cup again. I resisted the urge to tell her if that were true we wouldn't currently be worrying about single use coffee cups.

But yeah as messed up as I find some animal rights protestors if they have an actual moral issue and consider killing animals murder then obviously they're gonna get pretty upset about that.

 

[Silvanus]

I'm vegetarian, and make a few efforts in the direction of veganism when it's easy enough (like replacing milk with oat milk in coffee, because it makes little difference). I've noticed the discourse around vegetarian/ vegan dietary stuff can get just bizarre sometimes.

I've heard so much about how pushy and shrill vegans can be, but quite frankly I've had more shit from meat-eaters trying to convert me than I ever did from vegans. Meat-eaters can get sensitive about veganism/ vegetarianism, probably because they take it as an implicit criticism-- or it makes them think about what they're eating, which they don't want to do.

 

[Satinavian]

I'm also tired of being told by people that you need meat to be healthy. You can be healthy as a carnivore, a vegetarian or a vegan, as long as you eat the right amounts of healthy food and make sure you're getting necessary nutrients.

Vegetarian, sure. But veganism is not healthy. Someone going vegan really has to start paying attention to what exactly is his food made of and which stuff he miht be missing. And no, it is not only B12.
Sure, you can construct a healthy vegan diet, but that will rely on a lot of plants that are specifically included to counter deficiencies of regular food plants. And this stuff is not even growing everywhere.

If you don't pay attention to ingrediants and just avoid animal products you will ruin your health. Even with B12 additives that is likely.

 

[Silvanus]

Vegetarian, sure. But veganism is not healthy. Someone going vegan really has to start paying attention to what exactly is his food made of and which stuff he miht be missing. And no, it is not only B12.
Sure, you can construct a healthy vegan diet, but that will rely on a lot of plants that are specifically included to counter deficiencies of regular food plants. And this stuff is not even growing everywhere.

If you don't pay attention to ingrediants and just avoid animal products you will ruin your health. Even with B12 additives that is likely.

Uhrm, sure, but you should be paying attention to ingredients and what you're eating. Everyone should, and ignoring good dietary planning results in shitty diets for meat eaters and vegans alike.

The take away isn't "veganism is not healthy", its "ignorance about nutrition and failing to think about your own diet is not healthy".

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Vegan food is food, it all depends on how well you make it.

Vegan food definitely doesn't need to be some sort of "version" of a food with meat on it, though. You don't need to make a vegan burger, just make a falafel patty or something, they're delicious too.

Nobody needs to eat a tofu turkey with artificial flavorings, either. Tofu is just fine as...just normal tofu. Mabo tofu is literally one of the most flavorful dishes ever and is vegan. Eat that. Why the need to ruin tofu by trying to make it into a turkey.


Just stop making fake versions of existing food and make good food without meat in it. Hell, you don't even need to call it vegan. It's just food. It doesn't have to be a "thing" to not eat animal products, just don't eat the things you don't wanna eat. It's not that hard and you don't need to base your identity around it or twist it into some weird political thing.

 

[JoJo]

Vegan food is food, it all depends on how well you make it.

Vegan food definitely doesn't need to be some sort of "version" of a food with meat on it, though. You don't need to make a vegan burger, just make a falafel patty or something, they're delicious too.

Nobody needs to eat a tofu turkey with artificial flavorings, either. Tofu is just fine as...just normal tofu. Mabo tofu is literally one of the most flavorful dishes ever and is vegan. Eat that. Why the need to ruin tofu by trying to make it into a turkey.


Just stop making fake versions of existing food and make good food without meat in it. Hell, you don't even need to call it vegan. It's just food. It doesn't have to be a "thing" to not eat animal products, just don't eat the things you don't wanna eat. It's not that hard and you don't need to base your identity around it or twist it into some weird political thing.

Not a vegan, but I have a restricted diet as a result of a medical condition (coeliac disease), so I can understand the reasoning behind wanting an alternative version of food you can't have. Sure, there are perfectly nice naturally gluten-free foods out there, but sometimes I just want a burger. I want to enjoy the same variety of food that your average person enjoys. More choice is good.

 

[McElroy]

People who want to make a statement with abstaining because it gives them a nice feeling about themselves can be annoying if you think about it too much. For example, somebody might not care about what they eat - whatever gets them through the day (and hopefully doesn't make them fat). Now when somebody does care so much that they will make strict rules about what they can eat and feel good about themselves following those rules, it might seem a bit like a "life hack". How many headlines with "I gave up X and feel much better now" have you seen? These people might often also say that they "don't feel like they miss anything from before" and "it doesn't take any extra time or work to [follow their diet rules]". I can't know if any of that is true or not, for I haven't tried.

It's all in the feeling. You gotta believe it. And that's where the annoying details come up. We all know not everyone can "believe it". So the next best thing is manipulation. It's alright if the cause is good after all.

Even then I'm fine with it. I won't be making any statements with my diet, and at least for now I haven't had to settle for ersatz.

 

[vallorn]

I'm pretty solidly in the camp of eating meat, but I've experimented with stuff like Beyond Meat or other vegan alternatives to see how they compare and how they can be prepared. Honestly, not really impressed. Sure, some make for decent alternatives or have their own flavour and texture profiles that allow for novel recipes (Tofu and cauliflower are pretty handy), but the majority just don't hold a candle. I'll cite vegan cheese as a product I never want to consume again.

I don't really have anything against my vegan friends or anything, hell I've prepared entire vegan meals for dinners where we're doing stuff together, but it's not for me.

 

[McElroy]

Purely incidentally, I know it isn't the case for the vast majority of people who will do fine on a vegan diet, but a friend of mine did have to eat meat. She went vegan, and she followed all the right nutritional guidance, and she gradually became more and more unwell. Eventually her GP told her she needed to start eating meat again, so she did and the problems went away. Christ only knows what was going on, but that's what it was for her.

It was likely vitamin B12 deficiency. Human bodies can't make B12 on their own, and it's only naturally found in significant quantities in meat and animal products (especially organ meat).

Signs point to "regular" anemia due to insufficient iron intake. Some people, especially women can get anemic without a clear cause (something-something menstruation). Even a well-planned vegan diet can exacerbate this. B12 deficiency doesn't appear until you've been without the vitamin for many years and it would be terrible nutritional guidance to not include it.

 

[Batou667]

Like many other identity issues, the exact source of the fats, carbohydrates and protein you choose to put into your digestive system should be one of the least interesting things about you.

The way some people forge not just an identity but a lifestyle, bordering on a religion, around being vegan is really tiresome. We get it, you're the most holier-than-thou sons of bitches in existence, please change the record. On the other end of the scale, it's inevitable that some people will choose to be part of a backlash against this kind of thing, which can get fairly petty. I think I read about a fervently anti-vegan vineyard owner, who on discovering that his wine would be classified as vegan, started adding trace amounts of bacon to it.

Do what you want, there re bigger things to worry about. The only time I feel veganism really crosses the line is when well-intentioned but uninformed adults decide their child and/or pets are going vegan and enforce a nutritionally deficient lifestyle on them.

 

[Drathnoxis]

My big problem with vegans is that food rations count as vegan. It's barely even a challenge to get enough rations to do a vegan ascension so it's kind of a pointless conduct. But I guess it's more about the fact that you miss out on some easy intrinsics, though, so I don't know maybe it's fine.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

All fine and well so long as you don't try to climb Mt Everest [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/woman-who-died-climbing-everest-wanted-to-prove-vegans-are-not-weak-a7043431.html].

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

To be honest I feel people are entitled to fuel their bodies in whatever way they see fit. It's when people (on both sides of the argument) start pushing their lifestyle choices on those who don't feel the same way that I begin to have a problem with it.

For reference I am a 'conscientious' meat eater - ie one who believes that although meat is an important part of our diet we do eat too much of it in our daily lives. I therefore only eat meat one meal a day, and practice nose-to-tail butchery so as to increase the yield from each animal and therefore reduce the number that needs to be culled in order to satisfy demand.

 

[Hawki]

All fine and well so long as you don't try to climb Mt Everest [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/woman-who-died-climbing-everest-wanted-to-prove-vegans-are-not-weak-a7043431.html].

Um, what does the article actually prove? She died of altitude sickness, not malnourishment. Lots of people have died on Everest.