Why are The Witcher 2 fans so defensive?

[Hristo Tzonkov]

Because the game might be with problems but they are not problems for the game's intended audience.We have fun being bothered and annoyed by shit.Face it that's the nature of hardcore RPG gamers.There were moments in Baldurs Gate that made you cringe teeth there's a few of them in the Witcher.The game isn't that hard tho.It's difficult at first but once you get the hang of it(by either lowering the difficulty for a while or reading the tips in the journal(srsly you have a manual in game for a pretty tactical game why not take the time to read it)) the game is surprisingly easy and it actually awards you for being better at it.

The choice making system was actually real.Like you have separate paths rather than "oh I saw that character I spared later my choices matter so much".I constantly felt an unforced morality in the game.Like I actually understood my character's thinking and there aren't wrong choices.The main character is always Geralt but he can choose many routes to the end.There's no point when I thought that the developers said "HERE!Here there shall be an epic moral choice" like I've often thought in DA and ME.

There's pretty much many reasons to like this game and while it had issues(yes I agree it had issues) they were far overshadowed in the experience.The game critics don't actually do it justice without mentioning how a good RPG and game can be made.I mean cmon it looks gorgeous and do you think Poland has a lot of money for this triple A title?Well they wouldn't all be emigrating if they had a lot of money.It has no cutscenes for an example instead they used the ingame graphics and you really can't tell the difference which makes the game cheaper but still stunningly good looking.We could learn something out of this.It also had no marketing except a few trailers but it still did commercially well on the PC market.

PC gamers also have fun.I had fun and I'm defending the game.And I don't think someone without at least 3 replays of old school RPG titles should be allowed to review the Witcher.The game just isn't for everyone and it is well received in it's targeted audience.

 

[Worr Monger]

I'll start off by saying:
1. I enjoy both The Witcher, and The Witcher 2.
2. I was a little surprised by some of the negative feedback for TW2, but didn't feel defensive about it.
3. If people are still getting worked up about ZP trashing a game they enjoy... for shame. I think it's clear that Yahtzee is either incredibly difficult to please... or he just exaggerates many of his criticisms for comic effect.
4. I thought the ZP review for TW2 was still pretty funny, and accurate in some ways, but I still like the game.... because I'm capable of having an opinion.

Based on the response to this week's ZP and Greg Tito's review (in which he said that he liked the game but pointed out his frustrations with it), fans of The Witcher 2 seem to be really defensive about the game.

I have two questions surrounding this turn of events. The first is more complex and dissects the nature of the way game experiences are presented. The second is more along the lines of your basic "why?" question. Pick your poison, or poisons, and "A" or "B" before your responses so we can see what you're responding to.

Question A:

I haven't played the game myself and I likely won't, but from what I understand, frustrations with the game are born out of the lack of a tutorial, i.e. "I kept dying because I didn't know how to effectively use the controls."

In response, TW2 fans say, "Why don't you read the journal? Why don't you look it up? Do you need your hand held all the time?"

Was this really a big complaint? I admit, I was a tad annoyed that I couldn't bind my own keys in TW2... but when I figured out that the journal contains a break-down of how everything works (rather simplified I might add)... it was pretty easy to figure out.

Not sure if this is part of the complaint.. but you don't need to read the journal to understand the story.. it's just extra fluff for those that are interested.

Quite frankly, I liked that TW2 didn't have a tutorial at the beginning.. those always take me out of the game. I find it fun jumping into the unknown sometimes... and if you've played the first game.. it's not THAT much different.

...and if you haven't played the first game.... *SLAP* GO PLAY THE FIRST GAME!!

Question B:

So, people were frustrated with the game in ways that perhaps you weren't. Why is this so bothersome?

I'm an exception here.. as I explained above, I'm not bothered by people not liking The Witcher 2.

Just as I'm not bothered by people that don't like Bioware.

However, I DO get bothered by blind raging on these games... and the witch hunts.. with threads being posted about how these games are just outright garbage when many reviews and player opinions say otherwise.

As long as people say why they don't like something... that's fine. Not everyone will like TW2. But one person's opinion (or even a handful of people) doesn't dictate the game's worth.

 

[ViciousMoon]

Maybe people have different preferences in games and their mecanics. Most games are streamlined to cater to a wider audience. The tutorial (or lack therof) and many other aspects of the Witcher 2 which might not be widely appreciated, such as the lack of any fast travel, could perhaps have been concient design decisions aimed at their primary demographic. This demographic is probably the same as that of the first game in the series, which wasn't as well recived and was appriciated mostly by more hardcore RPG fans. These fans may very well enjoy the extra effort in learning how to play the game, complete a quest, etc.

What I'm saying is that people doesn't always want a game that helps them through it and perhaps enjoy a less cinematic structure in favour of a more game oriented equivalent that perhaps slows down the flow the game for a added challenge to be overcome.

The main reason I can think of why people defend it passionately could perhaps be that games which require more from the player is becoming less frequent, possibly since they are seldomly lucrative to produce.

 

[LostAlone]

I can kind of see why.....Witcher 2 requires thought and trail/error not to many games like that anymore...

Trial and error essentially equates to bad game design. Or at least it is a symptom.

When trial and error means 'It takes a few times to find the perfect strategy for defeating this one enemy/area/boss, but brute force works ok too if your willing to utterly deplete your healing resources' then its not a big deal.

If trial and error means 'The only way to move forward to die over and over while trying things essentially at random until something sticks' then the designers should be ashamed of themselves.

I get the impression that The Witcher is of the ilk that continually puts you in situations where you need to have already done something specific before you get there, but there's no reasonable way to know that before you get there. If that's not true, then I apologies but that's the impression I get.

Save scumming (ie quick saving every ten seconds) is not something that a game should expect you to do in this day and age. That kind of game play is just not fun. Its barely even a game at that point. You never actually 'play' for more than a few moments, and you don't succeed because you are any good, its just pure persistence. When you are playing that way, there is no aspect of timing or skill or ability. There is no way you can fail, there is just time. The best you get is perfecting the game, and thats not fun to me.

No offense but it sounds like you have never played it so its hard to describe what is great/crap about it to you

If you actually read, it does somewhat imply that, no, I have not played it. Seriouesly. It says that. Go back and try again.

 

[Casimir_Effect]

So when people who enjoy all those other RPGs come along and shit on this one for not being like the others, we get overcome with dread that this one developer who understands us will go "Well shit, guess we were wrong. Let's make a hand-holding RPG with a Press A To Win mechanic" and so react accordingly.

I don't think this is a huge danger in the short term. CDProjekt (at least for now) knows what's what, and are currently making money by doing their thing.

Short-term definitely. But the paranoia for later years is there. Seen it happen already with Bethesda, Bioware and Obsidian - probably the biggest RPG devs around and all started out PC only (considering Obsidian as Black Isle) only for them to now always appear to care little for it. Obsidian don't optimize their games well, Bethesda fall foul of this too and are also guilty of bad UI (and seem to rely on PC modders to fix things rather than improve/add to them), Bioware are making each successive game less-complex and also have bad UI.

CDProjekt have made the first step - planning to bring TW2 to the 360. If that ends up selling loads more copies there than on the PC, who knows how things will end up. When it comes down to t, almost all developers need a salary and want to make money. Even the little indie ones who claim they'd never 'sell out' can usually only make this claim because they won't ever have the chance. If it came along then who knows what they might do.

That being said, I do have a lot of faith in CDProjekt because of where they came from. These guys started out by translating Planescape: Torment into Polish as a labour of love, and must know how much love they get from most PC gamers.

 

[Srdjan Tanaskovic]

newsflash bub

all fans are defensive

 

[Kahunaburger]

That being said, I do have a lot of faith in CDProjekt because of where they came from. These guys started out by translating Planescape: Torment into Polish as a labour of love, and must know how much love they get from most PC gamers.

Haha I didn't know this but it makes a lot of sense. I think that's a big reason why people like the Witcher games so much - it's such a clear labor of love.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Unless you're playing insane mode, the game isn't hard.

The problems are with the UI.

For example, dumb stuff like .. going to a different section of the prologue will deselect all your traps/bombs/daggers.
I mean, wtf ... I look down at the little icon, and it says I have Samum selected. Good.
I get in combat, and I try to throw one, nothing happens, and I die.
Go into inventory, and FUUUUUUU.

Speaking of the inventory, that thing is a nightmare to navigate.
It has nothing to do with being hardcore, there are probably less than 100 people on the entire planet more hardcore than me ... heck, I restarted the game on insane mode halfway through the first chapter.
But, I rage at the inventory for being idiotic.
I just want to vendor shit. Why do I have to scroll through all these quest items I can't interact with (on the trade screen) in order to find junk that has weight?

Then there's the autopatcher.
It may seem strange that I'm raging at this, but it took me hours to get all my settings the way I wanted it.
Patch 1.1 comes around, and resets everything to default.
Patch 1.2 comes around, and I thought "they can't be silly enough to do it twice"
FUUUUU.

 

[Waaghpowa]

You know why shit like this never ends? Because half wits keep making threads like this.

 

[Snotnarok]

Because they bought it, and what I've come to think is if you insult PRODUCT A, they take it as you're calling them an idiot for buying it and therefore must defend it.

That's the only reason I can figure for that nonsense.

What I'd like to know is the ones that come out and tell you should be using something else and then lecturing you on why it's better with absolutely no evidence other than "It's made for that".

Hhhhmmm... this logic is dump. If I don't like what I buy, I would not be buying it. And if I buy it, and don't like it, I have the right ot lament about it. It's quite the opposite.
As for the nonsense part... mmm... I kind of made up only an example...

Do you have know of etero porn? Isn't it bad? I really can't understand why someone should ever like it. Lesbian porn is much better!

The wrong part of your post is the idea that someone can't like a different thing from what you like.

Nnnno you're missing my point. That's what I figure these people are thinking, these people who defend things like that. I personally don't care what anyone thinks of my purchases, and I'm not about to call someone a moron for liking a game.

I'm simply saying that this is how I THINK they think because it's the only thing I can imagine them thinking.

 

[Mustang678]

I thought all of Yahtzee's complaints were rather viable and presented exactly the same way his previous complaints were. There's nothing making this review any whinier than previous ones

 

[Zer_]

Honestly, I don't have a problem with people not liking The Witcher 2. Unfortunately, I feel that Greg's review of TW2 was very weak at best. He ignored Some of the greatest elements in the game, and seemed to focus on the weaker parts...

TW2 does what very few RPGs can do these days. It delivers a gorgeous (and engaging) experience that is pulled off on what can only be described as a shoestring budget. A game that has probably 1/3rd or even less of DA2's budget, and you can see what I mean.

You can tell it's a game that's crafted with love, and wasn't rushed.

I did indeed have trouble in the beginning, but I pushed on and I don't regret it. Hopefully we'll see some more content and patches to improve this already awesome game.

In the end, it's an amazing game with some faults. I look past these faults with little or no issues.

 

[Gametek]

If you actually read, it does somewhat imply that, no, I have not played it. Seriouesly. It says that. Go back and try again.

Excuse my bugging in, but what give you the knowledge need for lamenting of something you didn't even tried?

 

[adrian_exec]

Well of course people will defend Witcher 2, they are getting FREE DLC's(and no DRM if they bought the game from GOG.com) for a game which is cheaper by 10$ then your average game. This alone is a good reason to defend the game.


Also Witcher 2 isn't hard, the problem is the terrible tutorial. The game should have had a better Tutorial and should have done a better job at teaching us the basics, but the actual combat or game difficulty isn't that hard. I'm pretty sure that once people got the hang of it they stopped thinking the game is hard.


ps: as for the ZP review, even though Yahtzee said he didn't had fun he still didn't bashed the game so much. He only picked on the difficulty during the prologue and the poor inventory system which are all legitimate reasons not to enjoy the game. I'm happy that he at least thought the writing was "all right", that's something rare for him.

 

[DethKid]

they are defensive because they have a lot to defend

its a good game...with a lot of flaws...

 

[Sejs Cube]

Wow OP, you answered your own question before you'd even finished writing the thread title.

They're defensive about the flaws in the game because they're fans.

Not rocket science.

 

[LostAlone]

If you actually read, it does somewhat imply that, no, I have not played it. Seriouesly. It says that. Go back and try again.

Excuse my bugging in, but what give you the knowledge need for lamenting of something you didn't even tried?

I didn't

I said what impression I got, then said why trial and error game play is a massive design flaw that has no place in the modern industry.

Like I said first time out Witcher 2 may have none of that, but since everything I've heard and read directly says that you need to save scum or try try try try try again its not far off base.

Look, if you aren't going to read the original post, don't blame me when you don't understand what it said.

Nothing in the last paragraph is about Witcher 2 AT ALL, its just about why trial and error blows. Directly above that you'll find a sentence that says 'This is the impression I get of Witcher 2, if this is not so, then I apologies'.

Seriously.

Go back.

Actually read.

 

[Magicman10893]

Question A:

I haven't played the game myself and I likely won't, but from what I understand, frustrations with the game are born out of the lack of a tutorial, i.e. "I kept dying because I didn't know how to effectively use the controls."

In response, TW2 fans say, "Why don't you read the journal? Why don't you look it up? Do you need your hand held all the time?"

It reminds me of the release of Final Fantasy XIII. Yes, I know I'm inviting flames by drawing a comparison between these two games, but bear with me.

I hate Final Fantasy XIII. My biggest gripe with the game is that the story makes little sense. FFXIII fans usually try to refute this by saying, "It TOTALLY makes sense if you read the Datalog." (the Datalog is a collection of plot summaries, backstories, bios, etc; similar to the Codex in Dragon Age)

In previous Final Fantasy games, the story was self-contained and could be appreciated just by playing through the game normally. In Dragon Age, which also had a "Datalog," reading the Codex would give a deeper understanding of the world of Dragon Age, but it was not required to understand the main plot and characterization. With previous Final Fantasy games as precedence and alternative experiences like Dragon Age, I argue that I'm justified in saying...

...I should not have to turn to other source material to enjoy Final Fantasy XIII.

How is this different from people playing The Witcher 2 and getting frustrated because they feel they shouldn't have to "look stuff up" to have a basic enjoyment for the game?

In defense of The Witcher 2, the whole reason that a game manual exists is to give you instructions on how to do things in the game. I think reading a little manual to understand the controls and get some hints and tips on how to fight is perfectly reasonable, although most game come with in depth tutorials in the game itself. Needing to read the journal in the game in order to understand the plot is just bad. The only time they can get away with that is if the game is about you trying to find clues to solve a mystery.

Anyway besides that, Yahtzee's... critique... was actually untruthful. I don't mind him picking apart actual issues or whatever but for example he said several times how long the game is... yet it's probably one of the shortest RPGs I've played in the last year including Fallout NV, Risen, and DA 2. He actually got 1/3 of the way through it. On top of that, he got all upset because... he didn't know which button would skip the cutscene (or that it was even possible). Ok, so it doesn't tell you right away, but anybody with half a brain will start smashing buttons to skip a scene. Once you do that it tells you what button will skip it.

So basically, it's annoying to first see him essentially lie, and then it's kind of sad to see people respond with "wow guess I won't get that stupid game!".

I think he didn't realize how long the game was. I think in the review he said he heard from people that the game was supposed to be really long, or at least have so much stuff to do in it that he though the game was really long. And for the unskippable cutscenes, I remember one commenter said there was some glitch that prevented you from skipping them, or he just couldn't figure out what button was used to skip them.


OT: I think my Captcha can answer this for me, "Population Infants." PC Elitist feel they have to defend their crowning jewel. Same way Xbox Fanboys defend Gears of War, Forza, Fable and Halo to the death and PS3 Fanboys defend Uncharted or Killzone to the death.

 

[somonels]

Why are "fans", in general, very "whiny?" Limiting the discussion to a single "fanbase" is not only pointless but rubs them off even more, as it is a direct criticism suggesting that other fanbases are less "whiny".