Why are we afraid of criticism?

[DementedSheep]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

play a different game?

Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.

 

[Erttheking]

And for the hundredth time, Anita is NOT the main voice of feminism. I'd be willing to bet hard money that you don't follow feminism at all. You don't follow feminist blogs on Tumblr, feminist journals, youtube series. I'd be willing to bet your only exposure to feminism is Anita and what gaming journals print. I follow a friend's Tumblr. She is a massive feminist, constantly sharing posts from other feminist blogs. She rarely, if ever, comments on Anita. And when she does once in a blue moon, it's more about her being frustrated with all the harassment she is getting. Anita is BORING. She makes lousy argument, takes things out of context, this same feminist friend got mad at her when I talked to her about it. I am a feminist and I don't care about Anita. I desperately want her series to fade into obscurity and people to forget that she ever existed. But that won't happen. And I'll admit it, yes there is a lot of bullshit going on that comes from feminist origin. I'm not clear what's going on with Zoey Quinn, but the evidence that she's been up to questionable stuff is a long stronger than the evidence towards Anita. I can't get behind the people who defend her and there are plenty of feminists out there than are just plain sexist towards men. It hardly defines the movement though. And if I was just to take a wild guess, I think people are pretty frustrated with the argument about the extremists in the group because more often than not people assume those extremists are what they're all about, which is why they don't want to talk about them. It happens on both sides and is why I think this argument is so hostile.

You know, calling dissenting opinions whining and nagging, REALLY reflects badly on you. Also, 1. why can only women develop games with good female characters? Why can't men do it? 2. There are more than a few women in the industry already 3. more women would play games if gaming was more inclusive

And yeah, that was pretty fucking tasteless.

Anita is the main voice of feminism in gaming. Kotaku and RPS come second and they're just as terrible and greedy. As for feminism in general the top afaik are Jezebel and then there's tumblr which is a whole different can of worms [http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction].

Like I asked in the previous thread if you guys have any examples of gaming related feminists with more visibility than the ones I mentioned please share them (still waiting from the previous thread). Until then don't be surprised if the gaming community is frustrated at and rejects feminism given the kind of assholes that represent it and the way they treat both gamers and game creators. But that's the hypocrisy I'm talking about; feminists will never organize to publicly denounce these people but they're more than glad to use the typical by now No True Scotsman fallacy every time the movement is accused of extremism or irrationality.

No. She isn't. She wasn't elected voice of feminism in gaming by either the feminism comity or the gaming council. She is a very well known feminist, that is all. And I've seen that page before, and all it does it prove that there are extremists on Tumblr. They deserve to be called put but you can't let vocal minorities color your view of everyone on one side of an argument. If we did, I'd have some horrible things to say about the anti-Anita crowd based on youtube comments.

I don't follow main feminism blogs directly, I get most of them second hand from my friend's tumblr, if you look deep enough in there you can find what you're looking for there.

http://kitkatinahat.tumblr.com/

And people denounce Anita all the damn time on this website! Feminists like Phasmal, Zachary, MarsAtlas, Fappy and me. We think her arguments are lukewarm but we think she gets way too much abuse. We commonly write long posts about why we think her videos are lack luster, but we don't think that she's the god damn anti-Christ! And what's more, assholes that represent it? Oh for God's sake, Anita is not an asshole because you don't agree with her! And people can't denounce her in a way that would make you happy because making your voice by millions is MUCH easier said than done. They can't get the publicity needed to satisfy people like you, so your demand is actually pretty unreasonable.

 

[Racecarlock]

Games aren't going anywhere. They're not. As powerful as people seem to believe anita and zoe are, there is no fucking way they will ever censor games or otherwise. Stop comparing them to jack thompson. Jack Thompson was a legitimate threat for a small amount of time until science basically disproved him on every count and then he got disbarred.

Zoe is just some girl who made a text based adventure game. I don't know what happened to this fine young capitalists group, but I don't think she's the one that did it.

Anita is some girl who made some videos about gaming with a feminist slant. SHOCK HORROR! I mean, moviebob has a series about games, extra credits has a series about games, fucking yahtzee's whole career is based on his series about games. What in the hell makes anita's videos such a big threat?

The whole thing where journalists said gaming is dead? Well, maybe they should have used different wording. But there's no doubt that there is a significant presence of people who think "tits or GTFO" is a good pick up line to send women on xbox live. Sure, we shun them, but they don't get banned from using the service or anything. So it doesn't even matter that we hate the guy and don't associate with him, he's still out there asking to see naked pictures of every woman he sees on there.

No, gaming isn't dead, but people getting away with being an asshole is certainly going away, and with good reason.

Oh, and as for the stance that games aren't political, have you played bioshock infinite? Or the first bioshock? Or any COD game? I mean, I love COD, but it's clearly some right winger's fantasy of what military life is like. I mean, you're essentially james bond combined with a soldier in every game. And the majority of enemies are always russian or muslim. Except in ghosts. There's nothing political in those games?

Besides which, I thought we wanted games to be taken seriously as art. Well, for that to happen, even if it's not particularly good criticism, we have to accept that criticism is not always going to come from somebody inside the industry. And to say that all criticism when it comes to sexism is coming from people being mind controlled by anita sarkeesian? That's just complete bullshit. I mean, really, you should be ashamed for thinking it, let alone typing it. Just because someone doesn't entirely agree with you doesn't mean they're some kind of feminist shill or eeeeeeeevil "social justice warrior". Learn not to just stereotype people based on the worst extremists in their particular group and then we can talk.

But until we can take this kind of criticism and not have 6000 people immediately fly off the handle about how "It's just a game, don't take it seriously!", then I guess games can not and will not ever be high art.

That's how I see it.

 

[Fappy]

Like in Skyrim how there is a mission to slut sham a woman. Skyrim itself has a pretty positive portrayal of women, but that little tid bit is still a no-no.

I JUST saw this, not sure why. I very much have a problem with this mindset if you are infering it shouldnt be in teh game. Do I think slut shaming is bad? Yes. Do I think these controversial issues should be off limits or put into "perfect" context in art or storytelling? No, absolutely not. Stuff like that shouldn't be off limits. If people play skyrim and then think slut shaming is ok... Well, I want to meet this person.

I replayed this quest very recently. As a feminist myself, I only have a very small issue with the quest. I have no problem with slut shaming being an excepted practice in a fantasy world, but I think they could have gone a little further in implying the act is wrong. That said, if you decline the quest the girl who gives it to you says something to the effect of, "Oh yeah, I guess it was a pretty bad idea wasn't it?"

I don't think it's a big of a deal as some others, but it could have been handled better.

Skyrim is still one of my favorite games though

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

play a different game?

Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

 

[QuietlyListening]

It's not that a game on the whole isn't fun. It's that particular aspect isn't fun. And not in the "oh that made me think" kind of not fun. Just not fun not fun. We all want good games, and the only way to fix these problems is to address them head on.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?

There's a big reason I'd say why general criticism about a game (ie. 'the graphics are bad', 'the writing stinks', 'the mechanics are poor', etc.) is very different from criticizing a game under the guise of "social issues".

If you say "I don't like the mechanics of Assassin's Creed" (I just pulled AC out of a hat here), and I say "well I like the mechanics", that's pretty much the end of it, we have differing opinions on the mechanics.

On the other hand, if you say "I don't like Assassin's Creed because it's racist", what is the response? "Well I like Assassin's Creed because it's racist."? And if you don't think it's racist, now you're forced to defend why it isn't. And the reason you need to defend why it isn't is because, basically, the person claiming the game is racist is saying 1 of 2 things about those who like the game:
A: The game IS racist, those who like it are just too dumb/ignorant/'privileged' to see it. For pretty obvious reasons, people don't like that.
B: You know the game is racist but you play it anyway, which means that (at best) you're tolerant of racism, and (at worst) you're a racist yourself. People don't like that.

Criticizing through the lens of it being a social issue is, ultimately, an argument that you can't lose. Disagree that something is sexist, racist, anti-Semitic, etc? Well you just don't understand. Agree that something is _______ist, but play it and enjoy it anyway? You're tolerant of whatever ________ism we're talking about.

This post sums up my issues with the current climate of gaming criticism quite well, so, thank you for being more eloquent and concise about it than I could be.

It genuinely isn't about "criticism" itself. It's about this specific type and the fact that we've been bombarded with it for several years by a large segment of gaming journalists. *shrug*

 

[DementedSheep]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

play a different game?

Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.

 

[nuclearday]

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

Just myself, I think it's plain faulty criticism to define a negative trait and then apply, in broad strokes, a negative value judgement on any example that has that trait. It's ignoring the nuance that art is supposed to have.

I think the worst thing Anita Sarkeesian did was end up framing this debate in absolutes, intentionally or not. (And really it applies to all of video game criticism, I think.) And there's also something to said for faulty of logic of applying macro critical analysis to micro.

For example, if I were to say "not every female character should be sexually objectified" I don't think that's a terribly controversial view. I don't think many people want every every woman character in every game to be unbelievably proportioned and wearing nothing but a chainmail g-string. But that also doesn't mean I would think every instance of an objectified woman is an innately evil thing regardless of context.

For one, I think how something is presented is incredibly important, and often gets left out of these discussions altogether; or what purpose that element serves to the overall gestalt, not to mention what the creator was trying to say or what stylistic choices they were making.

The Witcher, for example, has very strong, sexually empowered women in it. Characters that are neither token additions for the mere sake of inclusivity or one-note cardboard cutouts that serve no other purpose or have no agency of their own. Rather, characters with depth and dimension and an internal life.

But the game also definitely objectifies females - I can't call an optional collection quest where you get a naughty trading card for sleeping with these characters anything other than objectification, right?

But I still thought it was a good game (still haven't got around to playing #2.) There's a degree of nuance that is lost if I start to bring in hyperbole or polarize the views about the game.

I feel rampant objectification of women isn't a good thing. But that doesn't mean I was offended with The Witcher, even though it has that element. Partly because I think the game possessed a degree of self-awareness and maturity when dealing with these subjects. If I were to denounce the entire game as "Sexist" because of some elements taken out of context, then I'm overlooking the positive examples that are also to be found in the core of the game.

I think it's important to be able to be critical of something, or even of something that an otherwise fine game contains; but still be able to appreciate it for what it is. I mean, Fallout 3 wasn't the "true Fallout sequel" I'd been wanting for a long time - but because I have some misgivings about the path the game took doesn't mean I think it's a terrible game. I might say I don't like Quick Time Events, but that doesn't mean I can't still really like Heavy Rain.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

As someone who feels exactly this way, I can explain in a few words: It has become pointless and boring.

The current discussions and topics have been the same for so long that they are no longer going anywhere. Neither side of any of the arguments has really gained any ground or made any truly good points in a long time.

It's completely stagnant. No opinions are being changed. No content is being significantly affected.

I feel no shame is wishing for fewer boring things.

 

[QuietlyListening]

I wouldn't say that nothing good has come of it. Look at the Steve Jaros' response to the feminism argument: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/saints-row-dev-responds-to-feminist-frequency-crit/1100-6422014/

Second, there's a difference between being bored with the debate and making a boring game (because of social justice??).

Lastly, if you're tired of hearing about the issue, imagine how tired the people are who have to live these issues. If you're not a white male, how many games do you have to play before you start finding characters that represent you? If you're a woman, how many games do you have to play until you stop seeing your gender being used as a standard for helplessness and objectification? I can't even imagine how exhausting that must be.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

play a different game?

Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.

i said if you are not having fun, if you are go ahead and play

in my humble opinion i think this stance is bad for a plendora of reasons, i already mentioned artistic integrity and how a character can be great regardless of how "sexist" it is

but you just reminded me of the end result of this attitude, the reason why, atleast according to the law in my country, "bellic" games are banned over here, is because of mercenaries 2, the game takes place in venezuela and you can blow shit up, aparently that hurt the feeling of the guys calling the shots over here and BAM!, they threw a blanket statement and banned pretty much all violent games, thankfully most people dont give 2 shits about this ban... except for Take-Two, which makes buying almost any game they publish an absolute freakin' nightmare

also im not white and i never gave a shit about who i am playing as in a video game

let me add that there are probably just as many tropes agaisnt women as there are agaisnt men, there are damsels in distress, there are meathead angry and impulsive males, its fine if the game gives you an option to play as a female, but sometimes the devs wants you to play as a male exlcusively, or as a female exclusively, and thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative you shouldnt have an issue with it, sometimes the dev wants to have a women being captured and needs to be rescued, thats OK if it makes sense within the narrative, sometimes a game has sex workers in it, and again thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative

im not a woman, i wont pretent to know exactly how you feel, hell i might never know your level of indignation, so i really wont ask you to not be offended, that being said i want you to understand having a "sexist" character, does not affect the quality of a game, a game is not a worse game for having one, now, if you want to keep playing these games, you can deal with the artistic changes the dev makes, you can maybe offer a suggestion via a letter to the dev and they could consider your input in the future, but do NOT shame devs for their artistic choices

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

Just myself, I think it's plain faulty criticism to define a negative trait and then apply, in broad strokes, a negative value judgement on any example that has that trait. It's ignoring the nuance that art is supposed to have.

I think the worst thing Anita Sarkeesian did was end up framing this debate in absolutes, intentionally or not. (And really it applies to all of video game criticism, I think.) And there's also something to said for faulty of logic of applying macro critical analysis to micro.

For example, if I were to say "not every female character should be sexually objectified" I don't think that's a terribly controversial view. I don't think many people want every every woman character in every game to be unbelievably proportioned and wearing nothing but a chainmail g-string. But that also doesn't mean I would think every instance of an objectified woman is an innately evil thing regardless of context.

For one, I think how something is presented is incredibly important, and often gets left out of these discussions altogether; or what purpose that element serves to the overall gestalt, not to mention what the creator was trying to say or what stylistic choices they were making.

The Witcher, for example, has very strong, sexually empowered women in it. Characters that are neither token additions for the mere sake of inclusivity or one-note cardboard cutouts that serve no other purpose or have no agency of their own. Rather, characters with depth and dimension and an internal life.

But the game also definitely objectifies females - I can't call an optional collection quest where you get a naughty trading card for sleeping with these characters anything other than objectification, right?

But I still thought it was a good game (still haven't got around to playing #2.) There's a degree of nuance that is lost if I start to bring in hyperbole or polarize the views about the game.

I feel rampant objectification of women isn't a good thing. But that doesn't mean I was offended with The Witcher, even though it has that element. Partly because I think the game possessed a degree of self-awareness and maturity when dealing with these subjects. If I were to denounce the entire game as "Sexist" because of some elements taken out of context, then I'm overlooking the positive examples that are also to be found in the core of the game.

I think it's important to be able to be critical of something, or even of something that an otherwise fine game contains; but still be able to appreciate it for what it is. I mean, Fallout 3 wasn't the "true Fallout sequel" I'd been wanting for a long time - but because I have some misgivings about the path the game took doesn't mean I think it's a terrible game. I might say I don't like Quick Time Events, but that doesn't mean I can't still really like Heavy Rain.

another example that comes to mind

EVA from MGS3, the makes constant sexual advances to the player, is shown to be promiscuous, her attire is revealing and most of the time is shown in a disempowered position, however:

Spoiler

at the end of the game, she is revealed to be a chinese spy, she uses her looks and perceived vulnerability to climb the soviet chain of command until she gets to volgin himself, she also uses her tricks agaisnt the snake, stealing sensitive information from him and at one point almost killing him while he was asleep, the ONLY reason why snake didnt die right there and then, was because EVA made a promise to The Boss

and yet im sure anita would shit all over her for being "sexualized" despite the fact thats the whole fucking point

and as far as other media goes, theres Yoko from the anime Gurren Lagann, you know how some shows have comic relief? Yoko is boob relief, she has a huge pair of melons, and almost every shot taken of her tries to accentuate her body, to the point it might get a bit unconfortable for some people, me included, but you know what? it doesnt matter, shes still a damn good character, and at the end of the series you will probably feel bad for her due to all the shit she had to endure

 

[Netrigan]

I'm not sure if people are afraid of criticism, it's they've never learned how to read it.

At its core, it's one person's opinion. That opinion may be horribly uninformed, it might be highly educated, but it's still just an opinion. The idea that even something like Transformers is objectively awful or Citizen Kane is objectively good is ludicrous. We can admire or deride the amount of skill put into constructing something, but that doesn't make it enjoyable.

As far as Social Criticism go. They're just one of those facts of life. Every group, even straight, white men complain about their treatment in media. Rush Limbaugh is as much a Social Critic as Anita Sarkeesian. If they can make their case compellingly enough, they can alter the way their group is portrayed.

 

[Angelblaze]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

Edit: I misread your original post - I agree

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.

 

[runequester]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

Edit: I misread your original post - I agree

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.

Ultima 7 and Neverwinter nights come to mind. Not a ton else but maybe someone else can fill in?

 

[DementedSheep]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

play a different game?

Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.

i said if you are not having fun, if you are go ahead and play

in my humble opinion i think this stance is bad for a plendora of reasons, i already mentioned artistic integrity and how a character can be great regardless of how "sexist" it is

but you just reminded me of the end result of this attitude, the reason why, atleast according to the law in my country, "bellic" games are banned over here, is because of mercenaries 2, the game takes place in venezuela and you can blow shit up, aparently that hurt the feeling of the guys calling the shots over here and BAM!, they threw a blanket statement and banned pretty much all violent games, thankfully most people dont give 2 shits about this ban... except for Take-Two, which makes buying almost any game they publish an absolute freakin' nightmare

also im not white and i never gave a shit about who i am playing as in a video game

let me add that there are probably just as many tropes agaisnt women as there are agaisnt men, there are damsels in distress, there are meathead angry and impulsive males, its fine if the game gives you an option to play as a female, but sometimes the devs wants you to play as a male exlcusively, or as a female exclusively, and thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative you shouldnt have an issue with it, sometimes the dev wants to have a women being captured and needs to be rescued, thats OK if it makes sense within the narrative, sometimes a game has sex workers in it, and again thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative

im not a woman, i wont pretent to know exactly how you feel, hell i might never know your level of indignation, so i really wont ask you to not be offended, that being said i want you to understand having a "sexist" character, does not affect the quality of a game, a game is not a worse game for having one, now, if you want to keep playing these games, you can deal with the artistic changes the dev makes, you can maybe offer a suggestion via a letter to the dev and they could consider your input in the future, but do NOT shame devs for their artistic choices

The end result of what attitude? o right that things like lazy shitty writing and gender portrayal can be criticised and talked about because criticism = censorship when it things you don't care about. Artist integrity in big AAA games? yeah, right! Artistic integrity is flimsy shield in the first place and large game compactness aren't about "artistic integrity". As I said before they already designed to attract players.

 

[Erttheking]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

Edit: I misread your original post - I agree

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.

There's sort of a character like that in The Wolf Among Us called Hans...sort of. He's a bouncer at a strip club but his entry in the character logbook says he'd much rather be up on stage. He gets like two lines of dialogue though, a shame really. The club he was at clearly looked like it was designed to pander to both genders, what with the posters of sexy men everywhere, and Wolf Among Us actually did a really good job writing engaging sex worker characters. Aw well, maybe in season 2.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

play a different game?

Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.

listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with

If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.

i said if you are not having fun, if you are go ahead and play

in my humble opinion i think this stance is bad for a plendora of reasons, i already mentioned artistic integrity and how a character can be great regardless of how "sexist" it is

but you just reminded me of the end result of this attitude, the reason why, atleast according to the law in my country, "bellic" games are banned over here, is because of mercenaries 2, the game takes place in venezuela and you can blow shit up, aparently that hurt the feeling of the guys calling the shots over here and BAM!, they threw a blanket statement and banned pretty much all violent games, thankfully most people dont give 2 shits about this ban... except for Take-Two, which makes buying almost any game they publish an absolute freakin' nightmare

also im not white and i never gave a shit about who i am playing as in a video game

let me add that there are probably just as many tropes agaisnt women as there are agaisnt men, there are damsels in distress, there are meathead angry and impulsive males, its fine if the game gives you an option to play as a female, but sometimes the devs wants you to play as a male exlcusively, or as a female exclusively, and thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative you shouldnt have an issue with it, sometimes the dev wants to have a women being captured and needs to be rescued, thats OK if it makes sense within the narrative, sometimes a game has sex workers in it, and again thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative

im not a woman, i wont pretent to know exactly how you feel, hell i might never know your level of indignation, so i really wont ask you to not be offended, that being said i want you to understand having a "sexist" character, does not affect the quality of a game, a game is not a worse game for having one, now, if you want to keep playing these games, you can deal with the artistic changes the dev makes, you can maybe offer a suggestion via a letter to the dev and they could consider your input in the future, but do NOT shame devs for their artistic choices

The end result of what attitude? o right that things like lazy shitty writing and gender portrayal can be criticised and talked about because criticism = censorship when it things you don't care about. Artist integrity in big AAA games? yeah, right! Artistic integrity is flimsy shield in the first place and large game compactness aren't about "artistic integrity". As I said before they already designed to attract players.

then why a developer of divinity original sin was forced to change a character he designed and he wanted to make?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

they are hardly AAA

"Recent events and a large exposure to unhealthy criticism had gotten me thinking and checking with my fellow artists. I'm sure people will say that as an artist we should learn how to deal with harsh and often unfair criticism, as if this is mandatory to being an artist. Yet at the same time artists have to be more and more careful of all those people out there we might possibly offend.

In a lot of ways you're forced to self-censorship when it comes to publishing your work."

it wouldnt be fair for me to ask the creator of twilight to stop making vampires so girly, just like it wouldnt be fair to ask the creator of rambo to make him wear a dress

artist integrity is a real thing, and i firmly believe it should be respected

plus if we are going to take the "they just want to attract players" route, on PC atleast, non-casual players make up from 76% to 80% of the playerbase, why would they risk alineating their playerbase?

bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already

 

[runequester]

then why a developer of divinity original sin was forced to change a character he designed and he wanted to make?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

they are hardly AAA

"Recent events and a large exposure to unhealthy criticism had gotten me thinking and checking with my fellow artists. I'm sure people will say that as an artist we should learn how to deal with harsh and often unfair criticism, as if this is mandatory to being an artist. Yet at the same time artists have to be more and more careful of all those people out there we might possibly offend.

In a lot of ways you're forced to self-censorship when it comes to publishing your work."

it wouldnt be fair for me to ask the creator of twilight to stop making vampires so girly, just like it wouldnt be fair to ask the creator of rambo to make him wear a dress

artist integrity is a real thing, and i firmly believe it should be respected

Isn't that simply a marketing decision though? No one actually forced any one to do anything. They got a lot of flak and decided the game would be less likely to sell, hence they changed their art style.

What actual, legal force could a bunch of angry people on the internet have brought to bear on the game developer if they had kept the boobs?
We're not exactly talking about the FCC here.