Why do you think The Reapers did it?

[Unsilenced]

It's a galactic smash-and-grab when you get right down to it.

They need resources to function. Unfortunately, they can only get the resources they need when they have a mad kill-on, and since there's only so much to kill, they have to hibernate while more shows up.

They're called the bloody "reapers." I say they're what it says on the tin. They're harvesting for their own survival. All that psuedo-philisophical crap is just a rationalization that maybe even they don't believe.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Well again you imply that "better" is something that actually exists when it doesn't. Also being able to think of a DIFFERENT method does not mean I cannot see or understand the reasoning behind another person's method.
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Case in point, in the anime Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann a race of beings known as the anti-spirals are actively hunting down all normal life in the universe because the Anti-spirals found that if normal life were to continue they would develop to the point were each life would become its own galaxy and all the galaxies would merge together ti form a super massive black hole that would destroy the universe.

They kill off most life to prevent the total destruction of the universe. It is a logical solution.

On the other hand the heroes fight because they think they can overcome the spiral nemesis, the name for the black hole, through their will power and determination, and they they shouldn't be held under the anti-spiral's methods.

Also a logical solution because until the Spiral Nemisis occurs there is a chance it could be stopped by fighting it.

It is entirely possible for there to be two contradictory theories that are both equally valid and there is nothing preventing anyone from seeing the logic in both.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Antivillain
Heres a list you can sort through of all examples of villains who turned out to be "good", or trying to do something helpful, but did so through means normally seen as wrong.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AntiVillain/Anime
Examples in anime

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AntiVillain/ComicBooks
Comics

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AntiVillain/Film
Film

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AntiVillain/VideoGames
video games

Hell Mass effect 1 had both Saren, who tired to get organics spared from destruction, and Beneziah, who tired to get Saren back on the path of good, who both were supposedly evil.
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Actually the reason why people hate the series is not being the Reapers turned out to be trying to do something that wasn't evil, it was because of how badly they explained it, to be more precise how they DIDNT EXPLAIN IT at all. Had Bioware adequately explained the plot device that was in play people wouldn't have cared.

the plot device itself, is not the problem
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Again you try to compare The Reapers, a race of machine/organic hybrids with no real sense of hatred or bias who try to help all organic life, with a group of humans who hated everything that wasn't them and sought to destroy them because they were supposedly "lesser" then they were and only worked to further their own luxury.

Two different groups, with two different motives.

the fact you even think they are similar is actually kind of shocking, and shows an entire lack of knowledge on the Reapers, or a very poor attempt to troll.
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When faced with total genocide and having all organic life be permanently killed off by synthetics, or having some life killed off in a smaller genocide by organic/synthetic hybrids, which would you choose?

yet again you fail to list, or even attempt to list, ANY sort of logical plan that doesn't involve mass murder that could logically work.

You can say "genocide isn't an acceptable option" from here to sundown, but until you can provide a workable alternative you have NO GROUND to stand on.

 

[ozium]

Until I played Mass Effect 3 I was under the impression that the Reapers were God like beings. This led me to believe that their intentions were incomprehensible by organics. I thought that Bioware were going for a Lovecraftian type theme with the inconceivably advanced alien race thing but the Ending of Mass Effect 3 pretty much tells you what their intentions were. A let down really because the reapers could have been so much more.

 

[MomoElektra]

snip

Well again you imply that "better" is something that actually exists when it doesn't. Also being able to think of a DIFFERENT method does not mean I cannot see or understand the reasoning behind another person's method.

Yes, I think no genocide is better than genocide.
I'm rather surprised anyone doesn't.

snip
both of those shows were very well received.

I only know NGE and I can tell you that no one I know supported SEELE for being saviors. In fact, wasn't SEELE actually the reason the angels came to earth in the first place?

Anyway, different story. And the ending did get a lot of anger for this transhumanism/end of all human life, for good reason. I distinctly remembering Anno getting a lot of backlash for projecting his depression and suicidal tendencies into the show (apart from the money problem). So that plot was not at all well received.

the plot device itself, is not the problem

It can be both. I have a problem with the plot device.

Again you try to compare The Reapers, a race of machine/organic hybrids with no real sense of hatred or bias, with a group of humans who hated everything that wasn't them and sought to destroy them because they were supposedly "lesser" then they were.

The Reapers in the first games were exactly beings of hatred for the lesser organic life forms. Sovereign himself said that. How do you ignore that? Even Harbinger called organic life inferior (salvation through destruction). How can you call them beings without hatred or bias? I am baffled. I do not get you. They say organic life will inevitable behave a certain way (without proof) and all synthetic life will behave inevitably a certain way (without proof for it, and with ignoring proof against it).
That's unbiased for you? Honestly? Are you making this up?

Two different groups, with two different motives.

Not really, hence my problem.

the fact you even think they are similar is actually kind of shocking, and shows an entire lack of knowledge on the Reapers, or a very poor attempt to troll.

Tertium non datur? I have shown why I think they are similar.

When faced with total genocide and having all organic life be permanently killed off by synthetics, or having some life killed off in a smaller genocide by organic/synthetic hybrids, which would you choose?

Not relevant, since you again imply the galaxy is actually faced with total genocide when there is no evidence for that.

yet again you fail to list, or even attempt to list, ANY sort of logical plan that doesn't involve mass murder that could logically work.

There is no problem except the Reapers. Destroy the Reapers, end the problem. They are the aggressors.

You can say "genocide isn't an acceptable option" from here to sundown, but until you can provide a workable alternative you have NO GROUND to stand on.

Been there, done that. You just don't see it because you believe that synthetics inevitable destroy all organic life without evidence for it.

Since you believe without evidence, evidence cannot convince you.

 

[Gypsybob]

For the banter.

 

[Acton Hank]

Yo Dawg i heard you don't wanna be killed by synthetics, so i made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years, so you won't be killed by synthetics.

Bit of a technicality here: the logic is that the Reapers only harvest the most advanced civilisations so that the primitive ones have a chance to evolve.

Not that it makes sense that way either because they are just gonna get harvested eventually too.

 

[Hyper-space]

It's funny. ALL of these, including the joke ones, are better explanations than what we got.

They've already explained it, Synthetics would inevitably wipe out Organics, so to prevent Organics from getting completely wiped out they "cull the herd", as to allow the cycle of organic life to continue.

To me, the Reapers represent the inevitable. No matter how hard you try, just like death, you will eventually succumb to it.

EDIT:

Not that it makes sense that way either because they are just gonna get harvested eventually too.

...And?

At least they get a chance at life, which they wouldn't get if the Reapers didn't harvest the most advanced races. It might not be what we would wish it to be, living forever and all that, but it makes sense that you would want to get some 50.000 years instead of nothing.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Yet you have yet to provide a means for there to be no genocide.
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Yes because an anime who is so popular it is often rated as the number one rated anime of all time in both America and Japan wasn't well received?

an anime that Japan almost worships like a religion in some cases mind you.
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Sovereign never once said he hates organic life, that is a blatant lie.
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And your basis is flawed.

If a group of beings who do thing because they believe it is the only way to perverse ALL life, not just their own, and a orginzization who only does things to perverse their specific group are similar then 50 = 20.
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Except you have provided nothign that demonstrates the Reapers are wrong, you have provided nothing that proves at some point in the future The geth or some other synthetics wont try to kill everyone forever. You have provided nothing that can contradict what The Ctatlyst said at all.

The Reapers may have no evidence but you have EQUALLY NO EVIDENCE.

 

[Acton Hank]

It's funny. ALL of these, including the joke ones, are better explanations than what we got.

They've already explained it, Synthetics would inevitably wipe out Organics, so to prevent Organics from getting completely wiped out they "cull the herd", as to allow the cycle of organic life to continue.

To me, the Reapers represent the inevitable. No matter how hard you try, just like death, you will eventually succumb to it.

EDIT:

Not that it makes sense that way either because they are just gonna get harvested eventually too.

...And?

At least they get a chance at life, which they wouldn't get if the Reapers didn't harvest the most advanced races. It might not be what we would wish it to be, living forever and all that, but it makes sense that you would want to get some 50.000 years instead of nothing.

Why wouldn't they get "a chance at life" if the reapers didn't kill them? Humans didn't go extinct when they first discovered the relays, they just joined the ranks of other older space traveling races...

The logic is a stupid solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I don't get the confusion. The original rulers of the galaxy realized that synthetics will eventually destroy any possibility of organic life from forming ever again. Organics advanced enough will always create synthetics as e have already seen. The solution to preserving organic life, i.e. the ultimate directive hardwired into the Reapers programming, is to eliminate only the organic life advanced enough to create synthetics.

The Reapers are the Gods of the galaxy. They control the various ecosystems through the Mass Relays and cull lifeforms that endanger the precarious balance in the galaxy. They don't think like a society, they think like beings far beyond mortality.

What isn't there to get? The Reapers have a God delusion and think they have the right to control life and death throughout the whole galaxy. That isn't even an uncommon theme in sci-fi.

Because the Catalyst never presents WHY they came to that conclusion, and offers no evidence to back it up.

Had like he pointed out examples of various races across time or w/e his point would have been proven.

As it stand right now he has a unproven, yet not disprovable motive.

 

[MomoElektra]

snip

Yet you have yet to provide a means for there to be no genocide.

No, you have yet to prove that a genocide is a solution to a problem. Neither the problem nor the solution are fact.

Yes because an anime who is so popular it is often rated as the number one rated anime of all time in both America and Japan wasn't well received?

I said the ending was not well received. Try to read, will you? I even wrote "ending".

an anime that Japan almost worships like a religion in some cases mind you.

The movies had a lot to do with that. Which, as you might know, changed the ending?

Sovereign never once said he hates organic life, that is a blatant lie.

His hatred is in his very words.

And your basis is flawed.

If a group of beings who do thing because they believe it is the only way to perverse ALL life, not just their own, and a orginzization who only does things to perverse their specific group are similar then 50 = 20.

Try it again with more sense, please.

Except you have provided nothign that demonstrates the Reapers are wrong, you have provided nothing that proves at some point in the future The geth or some other synthetics wont try to kill everyone forever. You have provided nothing that can contradict what The Ctatlyst said at all.

I don't have to prove anything. Star kid made that statement so it is up to him (or his supporters) to prove it. Burden of proof, you know.

Again you imply that they being right is fact, when it isn't.

The Reapers may have no evidence but you have EQUALLY NO EVIDENCE.

I'm not the one killing organics for a supposedly good cause (or supporting it). What do I need proof for?
Despite the fact that I have proof...
There is (very old) synthetic life in the galaxy (the Reapers)
Organic life still exists
Premise: All synthetic life will inevitably destroy all organic life = wrong.

 

[Acton Hank]

snip

Yet you have yet to provide a means for there to be no genocide.
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Yes because an anime who is so popular it is often rated as the number one rated anime of all time in both America and Japan wasn't well received?

an anime that Japan almost worships like a religion in some cases mind you.
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Sovereign never once said he hates organic life, that is a blatant lie.
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And your basis is flawed.

If a group of beings who do thing because they believe it is the only way to perverse ALL life, not just their own, and a orginzization who only does things to perverse their specific group are similar then 50 = 20.
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Except you have provided nothign that demonstrates the Reapers are wrong, you have provided nothing that proves at some point in the future The geth or some other synthetics wont try to kill everyone forever. You have provided nothing that can contradict what The Ctatlyst said at all.

The Reapers may have no evidence but you have EQUALLY NO EVIDENCE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M0Cf864P7E
You want a compiled list of reasons why the ending is bad? Here it is.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

and you know the supposedly "changed" ending was actually just clarification on the original ending. GASPS!!! Clarification made it better.

Again it wasn't the plot device that was the problem, but the lack of clarification.

Also the series was worshiped long before the movies came out, in fact that is why there was so much backlash BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE CARED BEFORE THE MOVIES CAME OUT.

Its exactly like Mass Effect 3. The massive amounts of people who worship the game arent caused by a changed ending.
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Really? show me the words were he states "We The Reapers hate organic life"

All I recall is
-Organic life is chaotic
-We impose order on chaos
-You cannot stop us
-You cannot understand us
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Ok fine

The Reapers are actively trying to prevent organic life as a whole from being killed off forever.

Hitler and The Nazis tried to kill off any form of human that wasn't them.

Trying to protect life as a whole =/= trying to pretect only one specific sub-set of life.

The Reapers =/= The Nazis.

Seriously you really have some sort of Nazi paranoia or something
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Actually since there is nothing that could ever prove them wrong they are in fact right by default.

They have a unfalsifiable hypothesis
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If you cant prove there is another way to protect all life without killing anything you have no ability, and no ground to stand on, to make an argument that someone doing the ONLY KNOWN WAY to save things is wrong.

Also as pointed out before the Reapers are not synthetic, the are organic synthetic hybrids.

the Reapers are just as organics as they are synthetics.

 

[Necron_warrior]

TO PREVENT ALL SPIRAL LIFE BECOMING ITS OWN MEGA-GALAXY.

Oh god, If only.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Well, I don't see why he would have to prove anything. He's millions of years old and has had to destroy a myriad of organic and synthetic civilizations to stop the Synthetic plague from destroying the galaxy. I think he has better things to do than try to convince a dying human that he knows more than him /her. I mean, look at it from his perspective for a second.

If you went up to a farmer and asked him why he has to spray pesticides on the crop he would say it was to kill the bugs that ate the plants. If you asked him why he would say that that's what bugs do. If you asked why that was a problem he would say it was because if they ate the plants all the fruits would be lost and the farm would go bankrupt. If you told him you didn't believe all that BS and that you wanted facts he would probably give you a slap on the ear of the head and tell you to piss off and probably think you were an ignorant and precocious little git.

Because, if you dont provide any evidence to support your statement, when the rest of the game showed your statement might be wrong, it comes off as shitty writing.

For your farmer example, it would be like if all your life you saw pesticides only kill crops, then a farmer says they are good for them because he said so.

When you have spent your entire life seeing the opposite happen someone just telling you your wrong seems nonsensical.

 

[MomoElektra]

snip

and you know the supposedly "changed" ending was actually just clarification on the original ending. GASPS!!! Clarification made it better.

Again it wasn't the plot device that was the problem, but the lack of clarification.

Also the series was worshiped long before the movies came out, in fact that is why there was so much backlash BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE CARED BEFORE THE MOVIES CAME OUT.

Its exactly like Mass Effect 3. The massive amounts of people who worship the game arent caused by a changed ending.

My memory of those events is very different. The ending of the original series was butchered by fans, and the movies have a distinctively different ending (if one can call the first one having an ending). There are similar pieces, but the ending itself is a very different one.

Really? show me the words were he states "We The Reapers hate organic life"

Now you're being ridiculous.

All I recall is
-Organic life is chaotic
-We impose order on chaos
-You cannot stop us
-You cannot understand us

Now see, there is your problem. Your memory is failing.

The Reapers are actively trying to prevent organic life as a whole from being killed off forever.

Not a fact! How often will you do this? It is not fact!

Hitler and The Nazis tried to kill off any form of human that wasn't them.

You know, their propaganda mentioned something about preserving and saving the aryan race from being destroyed and/or marginalized. You're ignorance is astounding.

Trying to protect life as a whole =/= trying to pretect only one specific sub-set of life.

Both the Reapers and the Nazis thought they could decide which life form has a right to live and which does not. Both imposed their views on others. Both used genocide as a means of achieving their goal.

The Reapers =/= The Nazis.

Well obviously not, the one group sadly existed, the others are a figment of imagination in a video game. But there are similarities.

Seriously you really have some sort of Nazi paranoia or something

No, what I have is commonly called knowledge.

Actually since there is nothing that could ever prove them wrong they are in fact right by default.

Now that's just stupid. And a logical fallacy, btw.

The games could have shown more synthetics trying to eradicate organic life. But the only ones shown like that are, again, the Reapers themselves. So I don't really believe them.
But it would have been totally possible to show the Reapers being right. Only they weren't.

They have a unfalsifiable hypothesis

Yes, finally you get it. In the established ME universe the Reapers cannot be right.

If you cant prove there is another way to protect all life without killing anything you have no ability, and no ground to stand on, to make an argument that someone doing the ONLY KNOWN WAY to save things is wrong.

It has still to be established that all organic life is in danger.
The only prove for that lies in the words of the star kid, whom you believe and I don't.

Also as pointed out before the Reapers are not synthetic, the are organic synthetic hybrids.

Prove that.

 

[fatmrbunko]

well if what the god child said was true then they did it because if they didnt other synthetics would wipe out all life and then they wouldnt have any organics to harvest so really theyre competing with other synthetics and have created the cycle to ensure there are always a vast amount oforganics and their technology to harvest because they can harvest the ones around while ensuring there will beons in future in other words sustainability with the 50000 years there to ensure noone knows about them and arent prepared to stop them

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Actually the movie end Of Evangelion is considered to be "the outside of Shinji's head" events of the shows ending.
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No I am not being ridiculous because you claim Sovereign said he an The Reapers hate organic life, yet they never did and you have failed to bring up any examples of them saying they did.

You are making a claim, yet offering no evidence to support it. Ironic that you are hating on The Catalyst for the same thing.

also hypocritical.
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And yet you have provided nothing to prove that ISN'T fact either.

If you cant prove it isn't a fact you cant say it isn't, and cant tell people they are wrong for saying it is.
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And again the aryin race is ONE SPECIFIC SUBSET of life, the Reapers DONT TARGET ANY SPECIFIC SUBSET and instead KILL ALL LIFE.

Your inability to tell the difference between protecting only a specific subset of life and all life is frankly astoundingly pathetic and frankly scary.
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If by "common knowledge" you mean, "your own twisted views of how anything that resulting in genocide MUST be Nazi related" sure.
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The Reapers having a unfalsifiable hypothesis doesn't not make them wrong. It makes them impossible to prove wrong.

There is a very large difference which you seem to be unable to understand
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I could easily point to all of humanities past that proves lasting peace in impossible, and synthetics lack of needs for organics, and the eventuality of war to show that a organic synthetic war is inevitable.

Furthermore the lack of need of Organics by Synthetics makes is exceedingly possible that they might just decide to whie us out.
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http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Reapers
first line
"The Reapers, known by the geth as the Old Machines, are a highly advanced machine race of synthetic/organic starships"

 

[SajuukKhar]

No. It's like you seeing a single butterfly and assuming all bugs are dandy and then go up to the farmer to tell him that he's wasting his time killing bugs because bugs are beautiful and help pollinate plants.

I get it's a shift in perspective and a lot of people are caught off-guard by suddenly someone busting in and telling you all your effort was a waste of time because even if you could stop the synthetic plague once through diplomacy, it will just happen over and over again and one day you will fail and that when that day comes all life as we know it will end forever. I know it's jarring and it's painful because the game did so well to convince you that you were right and that you could protect your galaxy but that was the point. It's supposed to be hard to swallow and it's supposed to shatter everything you believed. That's what a twist ending is and that's what you should have probably expected might happen in a sci-fi epic, a genre notorious for ham-fisted twist endings.

I agree with you, I was pointing out why other people dont get it.

However just being told "your wrong" is still shitty writing, even if it is somewhat logically sound.

The Anti-spirals in Tengen Toppa at least told Simon why he was wrong, why his fight was meaningless, they showed him examples of past spiral races who tired to fight them and failed, which is why no one hated the ending.

All bioware would have had to do was put up some holoscreens of synthetics killing organics in the background, and The Catalyst saying something like "these are the thousands of races across time that have failed to stop Synthetics, many of them much more advanced then you. What hope could you possibly have?"

or something similar to give his position some credit. That right there could have possibly prevented a fuck ton of this controversy from happening.

 

[go-10]

The Reapers were originally built as a super AI capable of reasoning and making its own decisions while maintaining a neutral balance of all things, as time and technology advance they started to see the balance falling apart and they concluded a mass extermination would give the galaxy another chance, this in effect created a cycle in which the Reapers are constantly looking for peace and perfection among all the races and in order to better study and understand the new life forms they assimilate to whatever species develops through the 50K years, which for whatever reason they understand is the allotted time to achieve perfection, and being a computer at the end of the day their solution for everything always ends up being "master reset"