Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

[TheMysteriousGX]

After centuries of almost no use in English it's hard enough to revive the singular "they" in a society where pretty much anyone with a double digit age was raised with it being implied to be impolite, then you expect a sudden explosion in terms for 76 genders and different preferred pronouns that very clearly where made up on the spot with no thought into the linguistics behind it and wonder why society at large needs to be forced by the state to go along with this since it can't be convinced to do so on its own?

I'm 32 and I've literally never heard it as being impolite to use "they" to refer to a person.

Yet even in a vacuum they tend to develop, like men being more mechanically oriented then women or women being more caring about others then men.

Bullshit, can't be tested for.

Funny how these things happen even in places where for decades the systemic dismantling of anything that could have socialised this into people has been removed.

Sometimes I think Norway exists solely to disprove social science hypothesise.

Also Norway: https://www.thelocal.no/20160318/norway-to-allow-gender-change-without-medical-intervention

https://www.thelocal.no/20170228/norway-parliament-says-no-to-third-hen-gender

The ability for people to choose a non-binary gender for their paperwork got defeated this time, but it's still making inroads considering it took a coalition in opposition and the fact the Labour Party is the largest single party in Norway means it's just a matter of time.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Someone made a comprehensive list of all these genders.

How can people take this seriously? [http://ageofshitlords.com/list-of-all-tumblr-genders-so-far]

I'd start with discounting a site named "ageofshitlords" and follow up by not being an asshole.

Seriously, what triggered this Zontar? Is it because Canada says you can't discriminate against these folks for no reason? It's like getting worked up over furries, which is another thing I don't think people should be discriminated against for.

 

[Zontar]

I'm 32 and I've literally never heard it as being impolite to use "they" to refer to a person.

I find that hard to believe given how recent it was that it stopped being impolite to use "they" when you know if the person is a man or woman.

Bullshit, can't be tested for.

And yet those who did that study on babies who where 3 months old found a way.

Also Norway: https://www.thelocal.no/20160318/norway-to-allow-gender-change-without-medical-intervention

https://www.thelocal.no/20170228/norway-parliament-says-no-to-third-hen-gender

The ability for people to choose a non-binary gender for their paperwork got defeated this time, but it's still making inroads considering it took a coalition in opposition and the fact the Labour Party is the largest single party in Norway means it's just a matter of time.

Kind of proves the point that it requires the state to have it forced through doesn't it? Or my previous one about it being something that people can just proclaim.

 

[Zontar]

Seriously, what triggered this Zontar? Is it because Canada says you can't discriminate against these folks for no reason? It's like getting worked up over furries, which is another thing I don't think people should be discriminated against for.

You people really don't understand what's happening up here do you? The fact our liberties are under existential threat due to the fact that the interpretation of the law by law enforcement actually allows you to be fined or even arrested for refusing to use someone's preferred pronouns. Or the fact the same government which has done so has taken a large step towards a religious blasphemy law.

Or how in our largest province the government can take away your children if (like the majority of Canadians) you don't believe in this third gender bullshit. Now granted no one will actually have their children taken away since federal police are likely to psychically prevent provincial police from enforcing it, and the government is likely to change before it's every tried (the government is projected to loose so badly it'll loose party status in the house) but a march towards authoritarianism and laws on the book that violate the Charter are still that regardless of if they're around long enough to ruin any lives.


You Yankees really have no idea how good you have it.

Edit: I cannot believe for the life of me that people think that the state forcing you to address people in a specific way, a way that should be a right to be refused just as any other treatment based on respect that is earned should be (and for literally every other person in society is the case) should be forced by the state to be how all interactions are done in a violation of our Charter and the rights of every citizen.

Social justice really is a poison which has infected the minds of many, and the education system has obviously failed. No liberal democracy that is functioning properly could produce such an illiberal belief and admiration for authoritarian action.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'm 32 and I've literally never heard it as being impolite to use "they" to refer to a person.

I find that hard to believe given how recent it was that it stopped being impolite to use "they" when you know if the person is a man or woman.

I find it weirder that some people apparently think it's impolite, honestly.

Bullshit, can't be tested for.

And yet those who did that study on babies who where 3 months old found a way.

Yes, that one study.

Also Norway: https://www.thelocal.no/20160318/norway-to-allow-gender-change-without-medical-intervention

https://www.thelocal.no/20170228/norway-parliament-says-no-to-third-hen-gender

The ability for people to choose a non-binary gender for their paperwork got defeated this time, but it's still making inroads considering it took a coalition in opposition and the fact the Labour Party is the largest single party in Norway means it's just a matter of time.

Kind of proves the point that it requires the state to have it forced through doesn't it? Or my previous one about it being something that people can just proclaim.

...yes, the state has to "force through" changes to the state's documentation, good job figuring that one out.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Seriously, what triggered this Zontar? Is it because Canada says you can't discriminate against these folks for no reason? It's like getting worked up over furries, which is another thing I don't think people should be discriminated against for.

You people really don't understand what's happening up here do you? The fact our liberties are under existential threat due to the fact that the interpretation of the law by law enforcement actually allows you to be fined or even arrested for refusing to use someone's preferred pronouns. Or the fact the same government which has done so has taken a large step towards a religious blasphemy law.

Or how in our largest province the government can take away your children if (like the majority of Canadians) you don't believe in this third gender bullshit. Now granted no one will actually have their children taken away since federal police are likely to psychically prevent provincial police from enforcing it, and the government is likely to change before it's every tried (the government is projected to loose so badly it'll loose party status in the house) but a march towards authoritarianism and laws on the book that violate the Charter are still that regardless of if they're around long enough to ruin any lives.


You Yankees really have no idea how good you have it.

So, it's basically the same rant I hear from folks in the US where they tell me they have to be allowed to discriminate against gay folks or else it's religious discrimination and the imminent crumbling of society.

 

[bauke67]

As humans, we are a binary species. It's how we have evolved, it's who we are. Genetically, we are one or the other, there's no middle ground, there's no third option. We fall back on M/F terminology because it's what we created to identify the differences in our genetic makeup.

This is actually quite scientifically inaccurate. Evolution does not have intentions or even hard blueprints. It's more or less a random process that just happens to recur. You can find many instances of people being born with super weird genetic abnormalities that cause them to be very much "non-binary" even in the sense of sex rather then gender. Consider "women" who due to an overactive hormonal gland develop half a penis during puberty, or a genetic male, that, due to an immunity to a certain hormone developed all of the female characteristics except for the internal sex organs, and lived his/her entire life as a woman, perfectly happy, but unable to reproduce.

Nature is weird, complicated and random. The binary idea is just a selection we choose to make from all of the naturally occuring deviations. You might object that these are just accidents of nature, that they aren't the norm, but we're all accidents of nature, and we decide what the norm is.

And if sex is this gray and complicated, imagine how complicated gender can become.(I don't actually know much about that last bit)

 

[Phasmal]

People get really weird about gender.
I'll admit I don't really understand non-binary gender myself, and a lot of it does seem to me on a superficial level to be based on gender stereotypes. But I'm not going to tell someone else that their sense of themselves is wrong.
Maybe I don't understand because I personally do not have a strong sense of gender, but I don't identify as gender non-conforming because I kind of don't understand that either. I'm not sure how much or how little one has to do certain things in order to be not conforming to their gender.
I mean, some guy once told me I "swear a lot for a girl"...

Spoiler: Me

But still. Just because I personally cant relate to other people's feelings about their genders, it doesn't make them wrong. They're not hurting anybody, so if they want to be referred to in certain ways, I don't see the harm.

 

[Zontar]

So, it's basically the same rant I hear from folks in the US where they tell me they have to be allowed to discriminate against gay folks or else it's religious discrimination and the imminent crumbling of society.

Nope, not even close, not even in the same ballpark.

I get it, you don't want to talk about a civil rights issue in a foreign country, I can't fault you for that. I can however question why instead of ignoring the issue instead you make a false equivalence between discrimination and simply not using the preferred pronouns of people who are much more often then not twats who most people don't even want to associate with.

This isn't even a "him" or "her" thing either, it's for made up pronouns that like that "Ze" "Xer" and the like shit that not one single person who hasn't already been told beforehand what brand of special snowflake you are could even know.

This inherently fascistic law will be abused just like all the other hate speech laws that only get enforced when someone who's an asshole wants to con money out of someone else and use the state to do so, and is treated as such by people who aren't gender activists who seem to have made it their goal to make as many enemies in the general public as humanly possible in the past year.

The only solace I have is the fact that the courts have a 100% chance of smashing down the law the moment someone dragged before the human rights tribunals sues for state backed criminal harassment, and that come 2019 the Tories or the NDP (whichever one forms the new government) have basically no chance of letting the bill not be repealed.

 

[Saelune]

Seriously, what triggered this Zontar? Is it because Canada says you can't discriminate against these folks for no reason? It's like getting worked up over furries, which is another thing I don't think people should be discriminated against for.

You people really don't understand what's happening up here do you? The fact our liberties are under existential threat due to the fact that the interpretation of the law by law enforcement actually allows you to be fined or even arrested for refusing to use someone's preferred pronouns. Or the fact the same government which has done so has taken a large step towards a religious blasphemy law.

Or how in our largest province the government can take away your children if (like the majority of Canadians) you don't believe in this third gender bullshit. Now granted no one will actually have their children taken away since federal police are likely to psychically prevent provincial police from enforcing it, and the government is likely to change before it's every tried (the government is projected to loose so badly it'll loose party status in the house) but a march towards authoritarianism and laws on the book that violate the Charter are still that regardless of if they're around long enough to ruin any lives.


You Yankees really have no idea how good you have it.

How good we have it because Canada actually expects people to respect eachother?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

How good we have it because Canada actually expects people to respect eachother?

Yeah, it's fucking "great" how us yanks can fire people or deny them housing because we are think they're pretending to be the wrong gender.[/allthesarcasm]

 

[Satinavian]

It's not a scientific or academic source. It's literally a pop documentary for television. That is not a reputable or a credible source.

It exists. Science acknowlegded it as interesting, yet unexplained and worthy of further investigation (which won't happen until more longterm data about it come in) and then moved on. If you dig, you can find peer revieved papers on it.

But for the last couple of years it has only played a role as an argument in political debates ab out gender and usually outside of Norway.

But it's not an academic study, or a lab report, or anything that would be peer-reviewed or abide by academic standards.

Sure.

I said, if you dig, you can find something academic about it. But i don't have the interest or time to do that. A short search will mostly reveal how it was used as ammunition in gender discussions over the last couple years. The actual findings are far less prominent and i think the name "Norwegian paradox" or "Nordic paradox" also came from sensationalist media and not from the actual scientific papers and are thus not particularly useful for the search.

I'm 32 and I've literally never heard it as being impolite to use "they" to refer to a person.

I am 36 and the only place where i have ever encountered singular they is the internet. Granted, i am also not a native speaker but i am sceptical if it will catch on.

https://www.thelocal.no/20170228/norway-parliament-says-no-to-third-hen-gender

Be careful. That is not English and how languages handle genders is extremely language dependend. I would not assume automatically that that has similar meaning to what it would have in English.

I have already more than once seen English media report how countries supposedly supported a third gender option when the legislation was actually about intersex as third sex. Or how English media didn't get that some Languages are totally fine with using neuter nouns and grammar for persons or gendered nouns and grammar for object.

It happens the other way around too. Sometimes it is really hard to explain why some English speakers want to introduce the confusing singular "they" when they already have a perfectly fine "it".


Many gender debates are hard to translate.

 

[sXeth]

People get really weird about gender.
I'll admit I don't really understand non-binary gender myself, and a lot of it does seem to me on a superficial level to be based on gender stereotypes. But I'm not going to tell someone else that their sense of themselves is wrong.
Maybe I don't understand because I personally do not have a strong sense of gender, but I don't identify as gender non-conforming because I kind of don't understand that either. I'm not sure how much or how little one has to do certain things in order to be not conforming to their gender.

I'm more or less in that camp.

Physical sex. There's a penis or a vagina. There are rare cases outside that binary, but that's prettymuch the facts of life.
I can grasp that for whatever reason, your brain and your body have a disconnect and the chemistry doesn't align.
I also acknowledge the possibility of that disconnect being either innate, or somehow psychologically induced. The latter may or may not be resolved by therapy, but that's up to the individual in question.

Then we jump on to gender. We have genders that we equate with physical sexes. Male and female. These are not by any means fixed though. Different cultures (geographically, historically, or ethnically) have all attributed differing traits and roles to these genders.
Thereby, these genders are social constructs. Like most social constucts (albeit more embedded), an individual can largely act outside of it. Taking another social construct, the "Gamer" label, most of us probably aren't caked in 5 days of sweat chewing on doritos and screaming at the sunglight.

Now the part where I become confused, is rather then rejecting these constructed norms. There's a jump to actively create more of them. We have this social system that is rigid, and psychologically damaging to those forced into its molds. The solution is to create a whole bunch of other molds? Like, I'd get it if we were trying to merge down to one neutral pronoun, not why we're adding to this flawed social system.

I've often wondered (and this may be a limited exposure, probably <50 individuals), why in MtF/FtM cases. The transition seems to always leap heavily into the opposite genders norms in terms of clothing, hairstyles, etc. There's a psychological pressure to pass as the new gender particularly if trans individuals are discriminated against, understandably. But it seems to be the standard even with out individuals, who aren't concerned with passing.

 

[MHR]

Yeah, I'm a 4-slotted sexual toaster. And my "girl"friend identifies as cartoon toast. It's a match made in breakfast heaven.

And all other identities are 100% as valid as ours. So you can take that for exactly as much as it's worth.

Also if all you guys wanted to avoid all these timeouts and warnings, you could have just posted it in the Wild West. That's what it's for. And memes.

Is it weird to want to be some butter right now?..

I don't get people's desire to control what others do. (With one exception - if there is a third party being hurt.) Could you just let people be who they want to be?

Not when it's factually incorrect. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to play pretend.

 

[Saltyk]

Yeah, I'm a 4-slotted sexual toaster. And my "girl"friend identifies as cartoon toast. It's a match made in breakfast heaven.

And all other identities are 100% as valid as ours. So you can take that for exactly as much as it's worth.

Also if all you guys wanted to avoid all these timeouts and warnings, you could have just posted it in the Wild West. That's what it's for. And memes.

Is it weird to want to be some butter right now?..

I don't get people's desire to control what others do. (With one exception - if there is a third party being hurt.) Could you just let people be who they want to be?

Well, that's the thing. I've heard of people who have "transgender kids". Now, don't get me wrong. I accept that a person may have issues with gender dysphoria at a young age. My (admittedly limited) experience with transgender people allows me to accept that. However, I have serious issues with someone allowing their child to transition at a young age, especially with hormones and such. The fact is that taking hormones has some serious long term effects that a child has no business accepting. Not just long term changes to their body, but also permanent sterility, and potential liver damage and disease are just a few effects of taking hormones.

A child has no business deciding to transition (or worse, being pushed into it). In this case, I would say there is a third party victim.

Also, it's often ignored, but there are trans people who end up deciding that transitioning was the wrong choice for them. If adults can get it wrong, why would anyone thing a child would know better?

 

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

OP has 5 posts total, so the thread smells fishy, however the obvious answer is that, short of mutations or hermaphroditism, there are indeed only two genders.

 

[Skatologist]

Well, that's the thing. I've heard of people who have "transgender kids". Now, don't get me wrong. I accept that a person may have issues with gender dysphoria at a young age. My (admittedly limited) experience with transgender people allows me to accept that. However, I have serious issues with someone allowing their child to transition at a young age, especially with hormones and such.

Question: Do you know the actual common practices and procedures for trans children in US are? I'd start with that before doing anything else.

The fact is that taking hormones has some serious long term effects that a child has no business accepting.

...which is why it's not an option for them until their mid to late teens when they reach something called the age of medical consent. Before then, granted, they can be on puberty blockers. But if we are talking about "long term effects", blockers haven't been shown to have that really.

Not just long term changes to their body, but also permanent sterility, and potential liver damage and disease are just a few effects of taking hormones.

Also all the positive effects like an improved mental state by having a body they feel more comfortable in, but what trans person would want that?

A child has no business deciding to transition

You have no business to say this unless your job pertains to trans people and their transition, and if it does, I really hope nobody tries to get help from you.

(or worse, being pushed into it).

Question: What's more likely, a child being pushed into being recognized as transgender or pushed away from it?

In this case, I would say there is a third party victim.

I would say you need to research more.

Also, it's often ignored, but there are trans people who end up deciding that transitioning was the wrong choice for them.

Could you maybe look up why that is, because this details why this half-truth is highly problematic and misleading.

If adults can get it wrong, why would anyone thing a child would know better?

Why do you think you know a child's gender identity better than that same child? Better yet, why do you think you know better for them than the people who study them and determined the proper treatment for their predicament?

 

[Trunkage]

Yeah, I'm a 4-slotted sexual toaster. And my "girl"friend identifies as cartoon toast. It's a match made in breakfast heaven.

And all other identities are 100% as valid as ours. So you can take that for exactly as much as it's worth.

Also if all you guys wanted to avoid all these timeouts and warnings, you could have just posted it in the Wild West. That's what it's for. And memes.

Is it weird to want to be some butter right now?..

I don't get people's desire to control what others do. (With one exception - if there is a third party being hurt.) Could you just let people be who they want to be?

Well, that's the thing. I've heard of people who have "transgender kids". Now, don't get me wrong. I accept that a person may have issues with gender dysphoria at a young age. My (admittedly limited) experience with transgender people allows me to accept that. However, I have serious issues with someone allowing their child to transition at a young age, especially with hormones and such. The fact is that taking hormones has some serious long term effects that a child has no business accepting. Not just long term changes to their body, but also permanent sterility, and potential liver damage and disease are just a few effects of taking hormones.

A child has no business deciding to transition (or worse, being pushed into it). In this case, I would say there is a third party victim.

Also, it's often ignored, but there are trans people who end up deciding that transitioning was the wrong choice for them. If adults can get it wrong, why would anyone thing a child would know better?

So, as far as I understand, taking hormones early means that the transition is easier. It also depends on what you mean by kid. You could mean under 18 or under teenager. Leaving til 18 is not respecting the child's wishes, but I don't know what would be a good age. I'd also like to see a third party involved (doctor, psychologist) to make sure there isn't any manipulation.

I'm a Kindy teacher - I see a lot of boys getting dressed up in dresses. Only a few constantly do it. Even fewer believe they are a girl. They stand out.

As to making a mistakes - I don't know if I want to stop people making mistakes. It how we learn. They have to be able to afford it though.

 

[Silvanus]

You do realise you've just made the entire argument for the existence of additional letters beyond LGBT reliant on them being disorders right here, right?

In absolutely no way whatsoever did I do this. It simply does not follow logically from what I said, at all.

Something being recognised, documented and described does not indicate-- in any way, shape or form-- that it is a "disorder". That's blindingly obvious.

And why shouldn't they? As I said, humans are by evolution, a binary species; We have 2 genders, no more, no less.

Again, this is just brash assertion, against scientific consensus. I'm awaiting those "thousand" texts and journals, but let's just say I'm not holding my breath.

On a side-note, it's "fewer", not "less".

 

[Delicious Anathema]

I think the people who don't feel right in their gender (besides hermaphrodites) or either gender have a mental disorder that unfortunately society seems keen on preventing any attempt to resolve it, instead pandering to the wishes and warped reality of these people and dragging everyone to "accept" their version of the world.

Gender as "society constructed" is funny when the same people who say that also say transgender people have their brain in the wrong body. All of a sudden there is female and male brains but then it's a human construct.