Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

[kenu12345]

I think the people who don't feel right in their gender (besides hermaphrodites) or either gender have a mental disorder that unfortunately society seems keen on preventing any attempt to resolve it, instead pandering to the wishes and warped reality of these people and dragging everyone to "accept" their version of the world.

Gender as "society constructed" is funny when the same people who say that also say transgender people have their brain in the wrong body. All of a sudden there is female and male brains but then it's a human construct.

I find this to be an odd post. I was content in just reading til I saw this one. You do realise that there isn't a magical pill to cure dyphoria right? Best is to transition and no body really is forcing you into another version of the world. People just don't want others to treat others in a dickish manner. And on the last part I think you are taking a saying a lil too literally

 

[Saltyk]

Well, that's the thing. I've heard of people who have "transgender kids". Now, don't get me wrong. I accept that a person may have issues with gender dysphoria at a young age. My (admittedly limited) experience with transgender people allows me to accept that. However, I have serious issues with someone allowing their child to transition at a young age, especially with hormones and such.

Question: Do you know the actual common practices and procedures for trans children in US are? I'd start with that before doing anything else.

The fact is that taking hormones has some serious long term effects that a child has no business accepting.

...which is why it's not an option for them until their mid to late teens when they reach something called the age of medical consent. Before then, granted, they can be on puberty blockers. But if we are talking about "long term effects", blockers haven't been shown to have that really.

Haven't been shown does not mean that it doesn't have negative effects. Do you really thinking not allowing a person to go through puberty is not going to have side effects? I find that hard to believe.

Though I am happy to hear that medical professions don't allow children to take hormones. That's at least one concern I've had with the concept off my mind. It should stay that way.

Not just long term changes to their body, but also permanent sterility, and potential liver damage and disease are just a few effects of taking hormones.

Also all the positive effects like an improved mental state by having a body they feel more comfortable in, but what trans person would want that?

You're assuming they are transgender. Why can't they just simply be confused? Or tomboys? [whatever is the opposite of tomboy]?

And even if they are transgender why is transitioning literally the only viable option? Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, like depression. assuming there is only one treatment is rather ignorant. We should consider counseling and medication as alternative treatments. Considering that the suicide rate doesn't go down whether a transgender person transitions or not, it certainly couldn't hurt. Might save a few lives if we have multiple tools to treat these people rather than just a hammer. You know what every problem looks like when you only have a hammer, right? Maybe there is no alternative treatment, but it seems no one even allows for the possibility.

A child has no business deciding to transition

You have no business to say this unless your job pertains to trans people and their transition, and if it does, I really hope nobody tries to get help from you.

Are you really suggesting that children can make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives? So I guess you work as an astronaut, doctor, or fireman. Since most children say they want to be one of those things when they grow up.

(or worse, being pushed into it).

Question: What's more likely, a child being pushed into being recognized as transgender or pushed away from it?

Depends on the parent. I'd say most parents would likely not want their kid to be trans. However, I wouldn't dismiss the idea entirely.

In this case, I would say there is a third party victim.

I would say you need to research more.

Also, it's often ignored, but there are trans people who end up deciding that transitioning was the wrong choice for them.

Could you maybe look up why that is, because this details why this half-truth is highly problematic and misleading.

If adults can get it wrong, why would anyone thing a child would know better?

Why do you think you know a child's gender identity better than that same child? Better yet, why do you think you know better for them than the people who study them and determined the proper treatment for their predicament?

When did I say I did? When did I say that transgender kids don't exist? When did I say that transgender people don't exist? When did I suggest a problem with transgender people in general?

I didn't? Just checking.

Seriously, people need to calm down and realize that we can discuss these things without the other person being literally Hitler.

I don't think a child can make decisions that affect the rest of their lives. That's the beginning and end of it. If your kid wants to dress like the opposite sex and such, go for it. But make sure that it's their decision. And don't give them hormones, which you already pointed out, medical professionals do not currently allow. If you think your kid may be transgender have them evaluated by a professional who can determine whether or not they have gender dysphoria. After that, determine what the best treatment is. Currently, that is transitioning. If we ever can talk about this without getting emotional, and develop alternative treatments that are accepted by medical professionals (not crazed religious fanatics or whatever) and that is the best treatment, also fantastic.

Doing what is best for the child should be our priority in these cases. Be that transitioning in the long run, letting them grow out of it, or some potential alternative treatment.

Yeah, I'm a 4-slotted sexual toaster. And my "girl"friend identifies as cartoon toast. It's a match made in breakfast heaven.

And all other identities are 100% as valid as ours. So you can take that for exactly as much as it's worth.

Also if all you guys wanted to avoid all these timeouts and warnings, you could have just posted it in the Wild West. That's what it's for. And memes.

Is it weird to want to be some butter right now?..

I don't get people's desire to control what others do. (With one exception - if there is a third party being hurt.) Could you just let people be who they want to be?

Well, that's the thing. I've heard of people who have "transgender kids". Now, don't get me wrong. I accept that a person may have issues with gender dysphoria at a young age. My (admittedly limited) experience with transgender people allows me to accept that. However, I have serious issues with someone allowing their child to transition at a young age, especially with hormones and such. The fact is that taking hormones has some serious long term effects that a child has no business accepting. Not just long term changes to their body, but also permanent sterility, and potential liver damage and disease are just a few effects of taking hormones.

A child has no business deciding to transition (or worse, being pushed into it). In this case, I would say there is a third party victim.

Also, it's often ignored, but there are trans people who end up deciding that transitioning was the wrong choice for them. If adults can get it wrong, why would anyone thing a child would know better?

So, as far as I understand, taking hormones early means that the transition is easier. It also depends on what you mean by kid. You could mean under 18 or under teenager. Leaving til 18 is not respecting the child's wishes, but I don't know what would be a good age. I'd also like to see a third party involved (doctor, psychologist) to make sure there isn't any manipulation.

I'm a Kindy teacher - I see a lot of boys getting dressed up in dresses. Only a few constantly do it. Even fewer believe they are a girl. They stand out.

As to making a mistakes - I don't know if I want to stop people making mistakes. It how we learn. They have to be able to afford it though.

I have to admit that I'm a little surprised to hear you see boys getting in dresses. It's not something I ever remember boys doing when I was young, and I never see any of the children of family members doing that either. Then again, I remember wanting to play Barbie with my sister for some reason when I was young. It's possible I just wanted to play with my sister, though. But I've always been a weird person. Or sentient robot trying to pretend to have emotions. Whatever you prefer.

Otherwise, I largely understand where you're coming from. I get the idea that the earlier they start to transition the better it can be long term, but I don't think that we should discount that they may not want that long term. That it could end up with someone waking up and realizing they made a mistake and have done serious damage to themselves, most notably becoming completely infertile. I really don't think anyone that is not legally an adult should be making decisions like that. Hell, the older I get, the more I realize how immature even 18 year olds are. But if there ever is a magic age that I think it should be allowed to take hormones, 18 sounds right.

There's a difference between making a mistake and breaking a bone and making a mistake and making irreversible changes to your body that might not be what you wanted in the long run. I mean if an adult wants to tattoo their whole body to look like lizard scales, split their tongue, have their teeth filed to sharp points, and whatever else to look like a lizard-man, let them do it. But I wouldn't allow a child to do the same.

No, this isn't makeup. There's another guy that did similar things to look like a cat-man.​

 

[Zontar]

In absolutely no way whatsoever did I do this. It simply does not follow logically from what I said, at all.

Something being recognised, documented and described does not indicate-- in any way, shape or form-- that it is a "disorder". That's blindingly obvious.

Intersex is recognised as a disorder, so using it to justify the existence of the as-of-yet unproved genders beyond the binary is in fact using a disorder to defend the existence of something else.

 

[Madmatty]

Because it's all made up or it's a mental illness plain and simple what they call cisgender we should call NORMAL and instead of putting gender on papers just put the word sex because the word gender has been made meaningless by Tumblr. This is just my two cents on the matter

 

[Delicious Anathema]

I think the people who don't feel right in their gender (besides hermaphrodites) or either gender have a mental disorder that unfortunately society seems keen on preventing any attempt to resolve it, instead pandering to the wishes and warped reality of these people and dragging everyone to "accept" their version of the world.

Gender as "society constructed" is funny when the same people who say that also say transgender people have their brain in the wrong body. All of a sudden there is female and male brains but then it's a human construct.

I find this to be an odd post. I was content in just reading til I saw this one. You do realise that there isn't a magical pill to cure dyphoria right? Best is to transition and no body really is forcing you into another version of the world. People just don't want others to treat others in a dickish manner. And on the last part I think you are taking a saying a lil too literally

Transition is the best way to deal with it, which is why post op suicide rates are still high. [http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/transgender-regret-is-real-even-if-the-media-tell-you-otherwise/] Right. In my opinion, having therapy to accept one's gender as it is or treating hormone/chemical imbalance instead of resorting to genital mutilation seems like a more fitting treatment. But of course no one will do research that kind of procedure, because it's "transphobic".

Also, when pronoun policing happens, people are forcing someone to accept their warped reality where they are the gender they claim to be. And let's not get into the new invented pronouns for gender fluid, genderless and two spirited people.

 

[Trunkage]

snip

Sounds like we are similar in some respects. I'd say that maybe looking at 12 (EDIT: trying to get in before puberty) but it would have to be highly regulated. I'd welcome any points to make sure they are safe.

I'm also not as concerned about making a mistake as you. For example, the fertility issue is a concern but any change will lead to fertility issues so I don't know what the right answer would be...

But then I'm a person who always wanted children where my wife had to be convinced (for like 7 years). So I could understand that some people might not want children at 12 but re-decide at 30.

 

[Skatologist]

Do you really thinking not allowing a person to go through puberty is not going to have side effects?

The only effect being, if taken off and having to go through normal puberty, starting puberty later usually in that mid-teens area. But it's used to decrease a trans kid's dysphoric feelings which ramp during puberty. And it would be kind of screwed up not giving a child who's been having X amount of years with dysphoria something that is reversible and has no present negative effects to go through the puberty of the sex they don't want to be.

I find that hard to believe.

I find a lot of things hard to believe, doesn't mean they aren't true.

And I'd be the happiest to hear the negatives because I don't see any foreseeable negative would trump the biggest negative of having to experience the puberty of the sex you don't want to be.

You're assuming they are transgender.

Me? Assuming trans people saying they're transgender are actually...*gasp* transgender? I would never!

Why can't they just simply be confused?

I was, but that's why trans people have to get approved for much of their transitioning treatments as to be the right path for them to go. It's almost like transitioning is a long and arduous process for people to undergo until they think they're satisfied with themselves. Shocking I know.

Or tomboys? [whatever is the opposite of tomboy]?

What about them? Because this isn't a pseudo-Iran where effeminate men and masculine women are forced to undergo transitioning. A gender non-conforming person, child or otherwise, doesn't even make me bat my eye anymore. I've seen 8 year old boys in dresses and pink shoes in malls buying videogames and couldn't care less. Now if I were their parent or someone who knew/cared for them and they said stuff like "I'd like if you call me she from now on" or "I don't like my penis". Then yeah, nearest gender clinic to see what's up. That's also the tipping point for most parents of trans kids, anything before that is usually interpreted by parents as a phase or early signs of homosexuality.

And even if they are transgender why is transitioning literally the only viable option?

Because the only comparable option to transitioning a trans person to their desired body (whatever that might entail based upon their individual experience) would be literally lobotomizing them to accept their body. Something I'm pretty sure we can't do at this time and if we could get it right, we'd get it wrong far more.

assuming there is only one treatment is rather ignorant.

Assuming "transitioning" is one treatment is rather ignorant.

We should consider counseling and medication as alternative treatments.

Ah counseling, the thing trans people have both before and after transition. Unless you're talking about counseling closer to deconversion therapy, in which case, no we don't really need that. And medication? Do you mean like spironolactone and estradiol?

Considering that the suicide rate doesn't go down whether a transgender person transitions or not,

If you're talking about that Swedish study from 2011, save it. Comparing trans people suicide rates to a cis control group doesn't mean that transition isn't effective, just as comparing people with cancer receiving a drug to a normal healthy control group of people who doesn't say the drug is 100% ineffectual because the cancer patients were more likely to die. And there's also this: http://www.torontosun.com/2015/06/08/suicide-rate-much-higher-for-transgender-canadians-study

"-- The support of parents mattered greatly even when a transgender person was well into adulthood.

-- The risk of suicidal thoughts dropped 44% among trans Ontarians who could get legal forms such as birth certificates or OHIP cards with their new gender.

-- Those who experienced low levels of trans-based hate were 66% less likely to consider suicide that those who endured high levels through things such as abuse.

-- There was a link between suicide and how far along a trans person was in changing their body to the desired state -- the closer to completion, the fewer attempted suicides."

So what I learn from that is, supporting transitioning is important, having avenues for transition is important, and transition itself was important.

it certainly couldn't hurt.

Depends on what you mean. Namely that deconversion therapy thing.

Might save a few lives if we have multiple tools to treat these people rather than just a hammer. You know what every problem looks like when you only have a hammer, right?

Transitioning isn't just one fucking tool though. It's something that encompasses various social/legal/physical/mental changes unique to a person's experience. Not everybody needs sexual reassignment surgery, nor hormone replacement surgery.

Are you really suggesting that children can make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives?

...no. Unless you think puberty blockers affects a person for the rest of their life (it won't ) and being called Jessica vs. Johnie will do the same. Because that is literally what trans kids do. If they're right before puberty, put 'em on blockers if they want/need 'em, otherwise everything else is their gender expression as well as gender affirmation by parents, peers and institutions. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing that isn't reversible.

So I guess you work as an astronaut, doctor, or fireman.

I kind of work as all three actually.

Since most children say they want to be one of those things when they grow up.

I fucking love that this is your response to me essentially saying "hey, you know you're not an expert on trans people, so maybe stop trying to say what is and isn't their business doing?". Because "transitioning" isn't changing genitals, or taking estrogen for the first time, it can be as little as being recognized as the opposite sex in a legal and social manner, which these trans kids can do. And guess what? If they decide they don't like it, they can go back.

When did I say that transgender kids don't exist? When did I say that transgender people don't exist? When did I suggest a problem with transgender people in general?

When did I accuse you of any of this? Because me pointing out "hey, the things you apparently want for trans kids are already common practice" isn't really me accusing you of anything. Because those things you detail you want, yeah, common practice. You literally had nothing to be outraged over in terms of trans kids transitioning because they don't go through SRS or HRT.

But you interpret that they did and me supporting their transition means I want them to undergo either SRS or HRT as children because...

 

[Saltyk]

snip

Sounds like we are similar in some respects. I'd say that maybe looking at 12 (EDIT: trying to get in before puberty) but it would have to be highly regulated. I'd welcome any points to make sure they are safe.

I'm also not as concerned about making a mistake as you. For example, the fertility issue is a concern but any change will lead to fertility issues so I don't know what the right answer would be...

But then I'm a person who always wanted children where my wife had to be convinced (for like 7 years). So I could understand that some people might not want children at 12 but re-decide at 30.

Honestly, I'm mostly concerned with making a life altering mistake that you can't really take back. Now, if puberty blockers really don't have negative side effects, that might be a good alternative to hormones at age 12.

7 years? You have some serious commitment to spend seven years -ahem- nagging your wife to have children.

And I don't put that much stock in what a twelve year old thinks they want for long term issues. The fact is that puberty and life can seriously change a lot of things that someone thinks they want. Obviously, I'm not saying I'd ever discourage a kid from what they want, but time has a way of changing what people in general want. So encourage them, but realize that what they want could be different next week.

All in all, we seem to have an understanding.

 

[Saelune]

snip

Sounds like we are similar in some respects. I'd say that maybe looking at 12 (EDIT: trying to get in before puberty) but it would have to be highly regulated. I'd welcome any points to make sure they are safe.

I'm also not as concerned about making a mistake as you. For example, the fertility issue is a concern but any change will lead to fertility issues so I don't know what the right answer would be...

But then I'm a person who always wanted children where my wife had to be convinced (for like 7 years). So I could understand that some people might not want children at 12 but re-decide at 30.

Honestly, I'm mostly concerned with making a life altering mistake that you can't really take back. Now, if puberty blockers really don't have negative side effects, that might be a good alternative to hormones at age 12.

7 years? You have some serious commitment to spend seven years -ahem- nagging your wife to have children.

And I don't put that much stock in what a twelve year old thinks they want for long term issues. The fact is that puberty and life can seriously change a lot of things that someone thinks they want. Obviously, I'm not saying I'd ever discourage a kid from what they want, but time has a way of changing what people in general want. So encourage them, but realize that what they want could be different next week.

All in all, we seem to have an understanding.

Unaltered puberty for a trans child can also be traumatic. It should not be a decision made without deep consideration, but its not like the "natural" path doesnt have its own major problems.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Transition is the best way to deal with it, which is why post op suicide rates are still high. [http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/transgender-regret-is-real-even-if-the-media-tell-you-otherwise/] Right. In my opinion, having therapy to accept one's gender as it is or treating hormone/chemical imbalance instead of resorting to genital mutilation seems like a more fitting treatment. But of course no one will do research that kind of procedure, because it's "transphobic".

You don't think that's been tried, over and over and over again, and proved not to be as effective? People just jumped straight to accepting people's preferred gender identity and labelled everything else transphobic so that science couldn't be done?

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

super weird genetic abnormalities

Those kinds of SWGA's are usually the result an external factor, like living downwind of a non-EPA compliant chemical factory. Or a compounded hereditary genetic condition.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Again, this is just brash assertion, against scientific consensus. I'm awaiting those "thousand" texts and journals, but let's just say I'm not holding my breath.

I will show you my proof, if you show me yours. You made a claim first don't forget.

 

[The Lunatic]

My foray into online communities has lead to a lot of encountering of Other-kin and such things.

Every time, they've got a whole list of other issues with them, bipolar, depression, general mental-health stuff.

There seems a strong overlap. And while, I don't mean to delegitimize what people believe, I do wonder if people would still identify as all this weird stuff if we took away those mental-health issues that affect them.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

...because we've only got the male/female binary to work with? And most forms of gender expression fall into either male or female categories?

I mean, feels like a simple answer, but 4 pages in...

 

[bauke67]

Those kinds of SWGA's are usually the result an external factor, like living downwind of a non-EPA compliant chemical factory. Or a compounded hereditary genetic condition.

That's not a counter-argument though.
Even if all those anomalies are somehow caused by humans, that does not in any way discredit their existence. It does not force them into your binary system. Even if you want to label them "freaks", which would just be insulting to them, that still nets you a trinary system of male, female and freak. You have to admit, at least in principle, that there is a weird fuzzy middleground, even if you reject a full on gliding scale.

 

[Zenja]

Wow, 4 pages. I am more in agreement with this guy's view.


There are only two genders and your biology determines it. If you want to change you biology then do so, however, don't expect me to play along with your make believe views.

 

[kenu12345]

Wow, 4 pages. I am more in agreement with this guy's view.


There are only two genders and your biology determines it. If you want to change you biology then do so, however, don't expect me to play along with your make believe views.

I ain't really in for discussion but these sort of posts always made me curious. After the transition and everything, how would you even know they are so that you can tell them they are really their pre transition sex

 

[Zenja]

Wow, 4 pages. I am more in agreement with this guy's view.


There are only two genders and your biology determines it. If you want to change you biology then do so, however, don't expect me to play along with your make believe views.

I ain't really in for discussion but these sort of posts always made me curious. After the transition and everything, how would you even know they are so that you can tell them they are really their pre transition sex

If a guy gets an operation to be a girl, that guy is now a girl - that used to be a guy. However, to not disclose that information in a relationship is extremely fucked up. Gender reassignment is your partner's business as it could stem into multiple aspects of the relationship down the road. If some stranger on the sidewalk had a gender reassignment surgery, it is none of my business and I don't care. Whatever you have the parts of is what you are. But I shouldn't be asked to call someone with a penis a girl or someone with a vagina a man. If you are one of those people that have both, I could see the person choosing gender. However, most of those cases has 1 gender very noticeably more pronounced than the other.

 

[kenu12345]

Wow, 4 pages. I am more in agreement with this guy's view.


There are only two genders and your biology determines it. If you want to change you biology then do so, however, don't expect me to play along with your make believe views.

I ain't really in for discussion but these sort of posts always made me curious. After the transition and everything, how would you even know they are so that you can tell them they are really their pre transition sex

If a guy gets an operation to be a girl, that guy is now a girl - that used to be a guy. However, to not disclose that information in a relationship is extremely fucked up. Gender reassignment is your partner's business as it could stem into multiple aspects of the relationship down the road. If some stranger on the sidewalk had a gender reassignment surgery, it is none of my business and I don't care. Whatever you have the parts of is what you are. But I shouldn't be asked to call someone with a penis a girl or someone with a vagina a man. If you are one of those people that have both, I could see the person choosing gender. However, most of those cases has 1 gender very noticeably more pronounced than the other.

I don't think I ever mentioned relationships. Generally there, this stuff is mentioned. Your initial post, at least as I interpretted it and I apologise if I misread it, seemed to go along the lines of 'It doesn't matter if you transitioned or whatever, I won't say you are that gender' Either way, even in your post there is alot of ambiguity. For instance, I have a friend who naturally has a hormone problem thus he looks like a female. Now this is assuming you are a decent human being and don't barge into people's pants or under their skirts to look at their genitals but how would you know then. By your logic, you could assume he was trans even though he's a dude and just be calling him a she for no good reason cause of some honestly insignificant reason. Same applies to trans people that are taking hormones, there comes a point where you don't know their sex and you are just assuming.