Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Because it's not a mental illness.

Funny you should mention that, considering there are two mental illnesses that could actually resemble Transgenderism. You've got Schizophrenia and grandiose delusions, things like where you think you're Jesus and the like, and you've got Body Integrity Identity Disorder (Though granted that one is more that you're not supposed to have certain limbs attached to you, but to assume it can't apply to other such areas like you have the wrong set of genitals would be odd to say the least.)

Basically, transgenderism could be said to be a mixture of these two illnesses. I can't really say much more than this I'm afraid, but that's my 2 Cents.

Except...that's not what psychologists are saying about being transgender. Why do you y'all think you have more authority on this than people who study and treat mental illness for a living?

 

[Avnger]

Basically, transgenderism could be said to be a mixture of these two illnesses. I can't really say much more than this I'm afraid, but that's my 2 Cents.

And video games could be said to be a mixture between murder training simulators and rape training simulators.

I figured since this thread had devolved into misinformed pseudoscience conjectures that I may as well add my own

 

[Saelune]

I just love my humanity constantly being questioned by people who claim they arent bigots.

And people wonder why I am not more polite to the other side.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

Because it's not a mental illness.

Funny you should mention that, considering there are two mental illnesses that could actually resemble Transgenderism. You've got Schizophrenia and grandiose delusions, things like where you think you're Jesus and the like, and you've got Body Integrity Identity Disorder (Though granted that one is more that you're not supposed to have certain limbs attached to you, but to assume it can't apply to other such areas like you have the wrong set of genitals would be odd to say the least.)

Basically, transgenderism could be said to be a mixture of these two illnesses. I can't really say much more than this I'm afraid, but that's my 2 Cents.

No, no, please, say much more, I'd like to see just how far this goes. I mean, it's not like you could dig a deeper hole than you already have. And hell, it's not even the worst that's been said in this very thread! So please, continue, give us the whole dollar.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

I reiterate my previous point: what's the harm in accepting genderqueer people? What's the harm in accepting transgender people? If someone wants to use gender-neutral pronouns and gender-neutral restrooms, who is being victimized? Even if there was no science behind it (even though there is and has been since the late 20th century), letting people be themselves in regards to the pronouns, names, honorifics, and restrooms they use is hardly going to destroy society or one's own concept of gender identity.

I know a number of genderqueer and transgender people, but that hasn't made me question my identity as a cisgender man or somehow devalued it. So with that in mind, why should I deny these people, these perfectly ethical, law abiding, genuinely good people, their identities and experiences as something that is wrong? And no, saying that "it's such a small number of people" or "It's an aberration" is not enough. Just because something maybe be different or uncommon doesn't mean it's harmful or wrong.

 

[Satinavian]

I reiterate my previous point: what's the harm in accepting genderqueer people? What's the harm in accepting transgender people?

People fighting gender stereotypes often clash with people who use those gender stereotypes as important pillar for their identity.

Trangsgender people have been on both sides of the conflict. For cis with a strong gender identity their existence questions their worldview, for poeple trying to break up and abolish gender structures and maybe gender itself, someone living it is an outright provocation, even if the gender in question does not match the sex.


Those problems won't go away anytime soon. There might be a chance to solve the first conflict, but i don't see how to solve the second.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

I reiterate my previous point: what's the harm in accepting genderqueer people? What's the harm in accepting transgender people?

People fighting gender stereotypes often clash with people who use those gender stereotypes as important pillar for their identity.

Trangsgender people have been on both sides of the conflict. For cis with a strong gender identity their existence questions their worldview, for poeple trying to break up and abolish gender structures and maybe gender itself, someone living it is an outright provocation, even if the gender in question does not match the sex.


Those problems won't go away anytime soon. There might be a chance to solve the first conflict, but i don't see how to solve the second.

But it just seems so pedantic. Someone who used to be a man but now identifies as a woman or something else entirely isn't going to have me question my own masculinity and manhood. Even if gender identities was as varied as the rainbow and widely accepted, I would still identify as a cisgender man because I know I am one. How other people identify and express themselves has no bearing on how someone does the same, or at least it shouldn't.

 

[Delicious Anathema]

Transition is the best way to deal with it, which is why post op suicide rates are still high. [http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/transgender-regret-is-real-even-if-the-media-tell-you-otherwise/] Right. In my opinion, having therapy to accept one's gender as it is or treating hormone/chemical imbalance instead of resorting to genital mutilation seems like a more fitting treatment. But of course no one will do research that kind of procedure, because it's "transphobic".

Also, when pronoun policing happens, people are forcing someone to accept their warped reality where they are the gender they claim to be. And let's not get into the new invented pronouns for gender fluid, genderless and two spirited people.

Rates of suicide are still high because stigmatization is still high. And trans people who recently elect for things like GRS to change documentation are more visible to abuse. But apparently this thought doesn't enter the heads of commentators such as yourself on the situationn, who assume that it's because somehow it's bad medicine. After all, maybe people being treated like garbage makes them depressed enough to kill themselves?

Nah, after all ... when does depression cause suicide?

Secondly, it would be transphobic because it pretends conversion therapy is useful or is a sufficient excuse for people like you not to accept basic neuroscience. In counterpoint, yes it is transphobic to accept the opinions of the scientifically illiterate to punish trans people by pretending they don't exist. Hence why rates of suicide decrease if it is correctly treated earlier rather than later, and why rates of suicide are not equal everywhere.

It's not like there isn't transition regret and suicide over it. Many trans people kill themselves even when there is support around them, many have internal conflicts over their identity that transition does not solve. I do think it's bad medicine, even if it's the only one there is now. Chopping off organs and taking hormones instead of accepting one's gender is not better, but finding out how to do the latter should be a priority.

Having this opinion does not mean I hate trans people, it means I, unlike "tolerant people", acknowledge there is an illness, and that I wish every one with it the best of luck. If they want to transition, I'm not stopping it, but don't expect me to accept it as a cure and cave in to pronoun policing.

Because it's not a mental illness.

Funny you should mention that, considering there are two mental illnesses that could actually resemble Transgenderism. You've got Schizophrenia and grandiose delusions, things like where you think you're Jesus and the like, and you've got Body Integrity Identity Disorder (Though granted that one is more that you're not supposed to have certain limbs attached to you, but to assume it can't apply to other such areas like you have the wrong set of genitals would be odd to say the least.)

Basically, transgenderism could be said to be a mixture of these two illnesses. I can't really say much more than this I'm afraid, but that's my 2 Cents.

Why can't you say more? Just say it. It's this kind of self-restricting behavior that lets some people feel they can censor people with "wrong" opinions. This is not NeoGAF last time I checked.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

It's not like there isn't transition regret and suicide over it. Many trans people kill themselves even when there is support around them, many have internal conflicts over their identity that transition does not solve. I do think it's bad medicine, even if it's the only one there is now. Chopping off organs and taking hormones instead of accepting one's gender is not better, but finding out how to do the latter should be a priority.

Having this opinion does not mean I hate trans people, it means I, unlike "tolerant people", acknowledge there is an illness, and that I wish every one with it the best of luck. If they want to transition, I'm not stopping it, but don't expect me to accept it as a cure and cave in to pronoun policing.

Well then you're ignoring the science, and the fact of the matter is you're just being downright rude. Few trans people feel regret for transitioning, but then again what type of regret are we talking about? Losing your job? Being shunned by family and friends? Your attitude is one that add to the idea that trans people should be miserable. Trans people are not diseased simply for being trans, and surgery and HRT should be seen as options if people want it. HRT and surgery is about accepting their gender, because gender is not your sex. There is a chasm of difference between gender and sex. We see it everyday

I mean so far you haven't even told me numbers aroundwhy you think it's bad medicine when we do have the numbers concerning conversion therapy and how successful that is (it's not). So much so most Western governments consider it child abuse. And yeah, that is very much bad medicine.

Why can't you say more? Just say it. It's this kind of self-restricting behavior that lets some people feel they can censor people with "wrong" opinions. This is not NeoGAF last time I checked.

Yes, it would be terrible if people 'censored' other people from expressing themselves as they truly wish to ... you realize the hypocrisy, right? You're ignoring basic neuroscience in order to pretend trans people don't exist... yet you run this narrative in the same post.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Except...that's not what psychologists are saying about being transgender. Why do you y'all think you have more authority on this than people who study and treat mental illness for a living?

No different from anti-vaxxers, really. Idiots will idiot and end up hurting other people due to being an idiot.

 

[Delicious Anathema]

It's not like there isn't transition regret and suicide over it. Many trans people kill themselves even when there is support around them, many have internal conflicts over their identity that transition does not solve. I do think it's bad medicine, even if it's the only one there is now. Chopping off organs and taking hormones instead of accepting one's gender is not better, but finding out how to do the latter should be a priority.

Having this opinion does not mean I hate trans people, it means I, unlike "tolerant people", acknowledge there is an illness, and that I wish every one with it the best of luck. If they want to transition, I'm not stopping it, but don't expect me to accept it as a cure and cave in to pronoun policing.

Well then you're ignoring the science, and the fact of the matter is you're just being downright rude. Few trans people feel regret for transitioning, but then again what type of regret are we talking about? Losing your job? Being shunned by family and friends? Your attitude is one that add to the idea that trans people should be miserable. Trans people are not diseased simply for being trans, and surgery and HRT should be seen as options if people want it. HRT and surgery is about accepting their gender, because gender is not your sex. There is a chasm of difference between gender and sex. We see it everyday

I mean so far you haven't even told me numbers aroundwhy you think it's bad medicine when we do have the numbers concerning conversion therapy and how successful that is (it's not). So much so most Western governments consider it child abuse. And yeah, that is very much bad medicine.

Why can't you say more? Just say it. It's this kind of self-restricting behavior that lets some people feel they can censor people with "wrong" opinions. This is not NeoGAF last time I checked.

Yes, it would be terrible if people 'censored' other people from expressing themselves as they truly wish to ... you realize the hypocrisy, right? You're ignoring basic neuroscience in order to pretend trans people don't exist... yet you run this narrative in the same post.

You know what's child abuse? Parents giving 12 year olds hormone therapy.

What kind of regret? When they regret changing because they didn't feel a woman/man when transition was over, and some even come around to accept their original biological sex. I'm sure there are happy trans people that transitioned, but the ones that have depression/regret/suicide are often overlooked when talking about this subject.
Youtube is littered with videos of trans people warning about transitioning, there are two sides of the coin and we at the very least shouldn't accept transition as the only treatment.

Also, I'm not pretending trans people don't exist. They do and they have a disorder, and I'm of the opinion that they should try to accept their sex/gender. It's okay to disagree.

Saying it's a disorder or illness is not censoring, I'm not stopping anyone from speaking or doing anything. You, me and anyone should post their views in a civil way, as different as they may be. When people start self-censoring because they're afraid then there's a problem.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

You know what's child abuse? Parents giving 12 year olds hormone therapy.

Citation needed. Because I class child abuse as abuse of parental responsibility, like denying a child medical treatments for a diagnosable condition that is presenting comorbidity with aspects of depression? Also it's clear you haven't actually researched the subject to determine the difference between something like hormone blockers as a minor and actual HRT.

But hey... why let ignorance get in the way of a narrative?

What kind of regret? When they regret changing because they didn't feel a woman/man when transition was over, and some even come around to accept their original biological sex.

Some, not all... and frankly that's why better diagnostic models are in place. Not that transitioning is somehow uniformily horrible. Because we have proof it helps trans people who seek that option. Also, what does biological sex have to do with it? Who actually identifies with their genome when genetics isn't even all that reliable?

I call myself a mutant for having an additionsl chromosome, but I don't wear it as if a fucking badge. Mostly I use it as a Marvel commentary joke. Still waiting for my superpowers, yo.

I'm sure there are happy trans people that transitioned, but the ones that have depression/regret/suicide are often overlooked when talking about this subject. Youtube is littered with videos of trans people warning about transitioning, there are two sides of the coin and we shouldn't accept transition as the only "cure" to this.

You're speaking to one. And transitioning isn't merely HRT and surgery ... HRT and surgery wasn't thrust upon me. Not all trans people want surgery, or the same surgeries.

Also, I'm not pretending trans people don't exist. They do and they have a disorder, and I'm of the opinion that they should try to accept their sex/gender. It's okay to disagree.

Saying it's a disorder or illness is not censoring, I'm not stopping anyone from speaking or doing anything. You, me and anyone should post their views in a civil way, as different as they may be. When people start self-censoring because they're afraid then there's a problem.

Being trans is not being ill. It can be a disorder if it is improperly treated. This is why options exist. Also, sex is not the same as gender. That garbage attitude belongs to the Middle East, where Iran forces you to transition for being homosexual, for how else can you explain a man wanting to fuck another man if they didn't want to be a woman ... or vice versa?

And you'll forgive me, but it is censorship. The whole point of freedom of expression is the libertarian ideal that self-construction and happiness comes from regulating one's own social vehicles in the engagement with others in a common exchange. Scientifically speaking, sex is not gender (not that we need science to point this out), trans people exist, and they have an equal right to have that common vehicle of social engagement recognized as valid.

Same way you seem to identify with your genome that you don't seem to know much about, you'll forgive trans people their identification beyond it because both common sense and science backs up this as a valid phenomena of being. If your only objection is your personal ignorance, then own that fact and don't pretend it's "policing" when people call you an idiot.

Turns out being gay and being left handed have more to do with womb conditions than genetics. So should I tell lefties and probably half of all gay people to stop lying about their "lifestyle choices"?

 

[Delicious Anathema]

We can agree to disagree, I won't repeat myself anymore as we're running in circles with the same arguments and counter arguments. You get my point: it's a mental illness, accepting sex/gender (they're very intertwined in my admittedly conservative view) should be favored instead of transitioning, non-binary/genderless should try and fit their gender too, and gay people have a disorder (albeit harmless).

Though even you can't help but fall into the liberal/leftist trap of calling everyone who disagrees an ignorant/bigot/idiot (though you have a skewed meaning of "ignorant"), but it's okay. If you're trans I hope you're happy and never have regrets or complications, just know it doesn't go well for everybody.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'll agree to disagree on a lot of things, but "you're are ill unless you're cis and straight" isn't one of them.

Like, how would you go around fixing that?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I'll agree to disagree on a lot of things, but "you're are ill unless you're cis and straight" isn't one of them.

Like, how would you go around fixing that?

For starters, there is a WIDE gap between being Trans and being gay, so the straight part there just feels out of place.

Granted though, I'm FULLY away that being gay used to be considered a mental disorder, the same as Transgenderism is today. The thing of it is, homosexuality could at least be argued to be a natural thing as one of nature's methods of population control. (Plenty of animals in nature that engage in homosexual behaviors, but you don't really see things like Male Peacocks ripping out their tail feathers so they look more like female ones.)

As for how you would go about fixing that? No idea, and that's part of the problem. Psychology is a very soft kind of science, and trying to work out treatment methods for anything is an uphill climb at best. That said, given the number of trans people who regret transitioning, and given that trans people make up about 0.3% of the U.S. population even a small amount is rather telling, surgical transitioning is clearly not the be all end all for helping people with this.

 

[Saelune]

We can agree to disagree, I won't repeat myself anymore as we're running in circles with the same arguments and counter arguments. You get my point: it's a mental illness, accepting sex/gender (they're very intertwined in my admittedly conservative view) should be favored instead of transitioning, non-binary/genderless should try and fit their gender too, and gay people have a disorder (albeit harmless).

Though even you can't help but fall into the liberal/leftist trap of calling everyone who disagrees an ignorant/bigot/idiot (though you have a skewed meaning of "ignorant"), but it's okay. If you're trans I hope you're happy and never have regrets or complications, just know it doesn't go well for everybody.

"Agree to disagree" is a stupid phrase. I do not agree to disagree. You're trivializing alot of people into just being crazy. Alot of this would not be an issue if everyone else was not crazy and think that clothing materials and genitals somehow conflict with eachother.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

We can agree to disagree, I won't repeat myself anymore as we're running in circles with the same arguments and counter arguments. You get my point: it's a mental illness, accepting sex/gender (they're very intertwined in my admittedly conservative view) should be favored instead of transitioning, non-binary/genderless should try and fit their gender too, and gay people have a disorder (albeit harmless).

Being trans is not a mental illness. Your gender has nothing to do with your sex. So no, I don't get your point at all. You're talking verifiably debunked statements. Your conservative values have fuck all to do with this. If your opposition to this is purely political, I hope more "leftists" are calling you out for it ... because politics shouldn't get in the way of medicine, nor as a tool for pathology.

Though even you can't help but fall into the liberal/leftist trap of calling everyone who disagrees an ignorant/bigot/idiot (though you have a skewed meaning of "ignorant"), but it's okay. If you're trans I hope you're happy and never have regrets or complications, just know it doesn't go well for everybody.

Yes, if you refuse to accept consensus to run a narrative you evidently have no fucking idea about, you are ignorant. That is the definition of ignorant. I don't lecture people about string theory because I have no fucking idea about string theory. I am ignorant about string theory. But that's okay, because I don't feel the need to lecture other people about String Theory. If someone in the field of physics says I'm full of crap, I should probably listen to them.

Not call it a "leftist trap" like an idiot.

Also, all medicine has complications. I get migraines, I have to take powerful triptans to hopefully stop it before it starts when I see the light fairies. But this is successful only about 70% of the time. If it doesn't work, I have the 'complications' of 3 days on average of vomiting, nausea, and have to hide somewhere dark.

One time was so bad I needed fluids through an IV because I couldn't keep water down for 4 days.

That doesn't make triptans 'bad medicine', orthat triptans use is pointless.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

That said, given the number of trans people who regret transitioning, and given that trans people make up about 0.3% of the U.S. population even a small amount is rather telling, surgical transitioning is clearly not the be all end all for helping people with this.

And no one is suggesting that, period.

More to the point, it does help many more trans people. Which suggests greater individual choice and better diagnostic models are in place ... and that there's still plenty ofrom for improvement. But nothing of what you havesaid in this thread is based on reality, and your grasp of neuroscience is equally lacklustre. We're getting to the point where we can start accurately predicting transgender personalities by looking as brain imaging. Even then neuroscientists are saying that that won't bethe be alland end all of diagnostics.

Also, as someone working and continuing study in neuroscience, there's plenty of 'hard' things about researching the brain.

 

[Delicious Anathema]

I get that you're very passionate about this subject being trans and all, but the World Health Organization considers it a mental illness (though they're looking to change it) and I tend to agree.

You're not a woman if you think you're a woman, and the same for men. Gender is not disconnected from biological sex, it's literally the properties applied to either sex. Are stay-at-home dads transgender because they took a classic (since pre-civilization) female characteristic? No, they're obviously still men.

Gender is connected to the biological sex, some are cultural (dress code, hair) and some are innate (hunting vs nurture). There is variance of course, but they're inseperable in my view. Countless (different) civilizations and the animal kingdom having the same distinct gender roles based on sex would be a big coincidence if both weren't directly related. Many transsexual people opt for a classic look (skirts and heels/ masculine clothing) for the gender they identify with, which should be unnecessary if they did the hormones and surgery already as sex=/= gender. The fact that many transgender people become (or wish to become) transsexual is telling.

I won't pretend to believe someone's a different gender or sex and I don't think society should change to conform to such a minority (like bathroom laws).

Also, by calling me an idiot, you proved my earlier point. Save that for people speaking about attack helicopters.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I get that you're very passionate about this subject being trans and all, but the World Health Organization considers it a mental illness (though they're looking to change it) and I tend to agree.

No, they don't. Gender dysphoria is a mental health problem. Simply being trans isn't. Plenty of trans don't have gender dysphoria, because they're comfortable with their bodies after treatment or counselling. Trans people are not disordered simply for being trans. We got rid of needless pathologizing of LGBTQ people years ago. Mainly because healthy, socially active people are not magically sick solely for being trans.

Same way I don't have skin disease if I get a tattoo.

Presentation alone does not an illness make. Unless you want to be needlessly excessive and say we're all dying from life disease ... mortality rate 100%, symptoms perisist for 0-117 years (the longest living terminal patient so far) ... 100% saturation of the public with an R0 of infinite.

You're not a woman if you think you're a woman, and the same for men. Gender is not disconnected from biological sex, it's literally the properties applied to either sex. Are stay-at-home dads transgender because they took a classic (since pre-civilization) female characteristic? No, they're obviously still men.

Gender is totally disconnected from sex, plenty of people perform gender and gender roles without a sex-based component. Plenty of recorded cases where people didn't know they were intersex until other conditions arose to make it evident. Gender is a constructed idea of manand woman, not an essentialist idea of male and female for the simple fact that ideas of gender change as time passes.

Gender is connected to the biological sex, some are cultural (dress code, hair) and some are innate (hunting vs nurture). There is variance of course, but they're inseperable in my view. Countless (different) civilizations and the animal kingdom having the same distinct gender roles based on sex would be a big coincidence if both weren't directly related. Many transsexual people opt for a classic look (skirts and heels/ masculine clothing) for the gender they identify with, which should be unnecessary if they did the hormones and surgery already as sex=/= gender. The fact that many transgender people become (or wish to become) transsexual is telling.

For starters, humans aren't common beasts. Secondly, civilizations rise and fall ... attitudes toward gender as time moves on change. Some cultural anthrologists think plenty of women were foragers and ropemakers, requiring sometimes days outside communal centers depending on the availability of supplies nearby in our prehistory. Then again in Saudi Arabia, now, women can't even leave the house without a male escort.

I won't pretend to believe someone's a different gender or sex and I don't think society should change to conform to such a minority (like bathroom laws).

Also, by calling me an idiot, you proved my earlier point. Save that for people speaking about attack helicopters.

Bathroom laws such as? The rest of the Western world and for that fact a good deal of the Eastern one as well don't give a flying fuck about bathroom bills. In Australia it is a non-issue. In the U.S. it was a non-issue. It's not a matter of conformity, it's a matter of public safety. Trans people are disproportionately victims of sexual abuse and physical assault, and nobody cared if they mitigated that by using the bathroom of their gender and not their sex.

Because frankly the inverse of that is ridiculous...it outs people simply to use a bathroom and increases the likelihood of violence. Nobody should have to ask permission to use a public/semi-public bathroom nor face violence for it, and if the idea is that it somehow prevents rapists ... they have never asked permission to intrude on a person directly regardless.