Why the "big boobs" "absurd female design" still exists?

nightmare_gorilla

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CloudAtlas said:
Doclector said:
But will I refuse to play a game because of that? No. No I won't. The whole "vote with your wallet" thing's all well and good, but if I like a game enough, I will buy it, unless it is absolutely overflowing with obvious, pointless attempts at sex appeal. I won't deprive myself of an entire game that I'll probably enjoy because of one or two possible incidents of sexism.
I find the argument "if you don't like it, don't buy it" to be very weak too. Oftentimes, there isn't exactly a great variety of recent, good games of a particular type to choose from. What if you're into fantasy MMOs? Good luck finding one that is as gratuitous as Skyrim. Or even a second one, if you got tired from the first. What if you're into Space Operas? Well, then there's hardly a way around Miranda Lawson's butt these years. And what if you have, God forbid, a penchant for Japanese games?

People who don't like this stuff just can't rely on only buying only those games that do not feature such content, because that would often mean buying fewer games than we would like. So, yea, like everybody else, we have to lobby for our preferences to be reflected in future games too.

And I don't think it's not working. There are much more debates today every time a game with questionable content is published. Games are changing. Just look at 2013's Lara Croft.
actually it's a perfect argument. no one in the games industry OWES you new games in the area you like, it's up to you to change the system by buying content that you approve of.

and that's exactly what they count on, it's what i'm saying is the whole point of this. people who make games know that some people don't like this stuff but don't dislike it enough to affect sales. while the people who do like it. have the dollars behind their like of it to perpetuate the cycle. voting with your wallet is the only thing that makes sense in this situation. but you don't have the resolve to do the one thing that might make a difference, you aren't willing to deny yourself a little enjoyment to make your statement you'd rather whine about it online like little entitled children. period.
 

Dogstile

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Yuuki said:
Ratties said:
It's because sex sells. Even if the person drawing the big breasted knight knows it's stupid, it will get their game some media attention. Look how much we are all talking about Dragon's Crown. That's the point. Even negative attention is still attention.



Just by posting a pic of a hot looking girl, will now get people to read what I wrote. they may not respond to it, it gets their attention. Whether it is negative or not, who cares.
Goddammit dude, at least have the courtesy to that in a NSFW spoiler tag or something, really don't need my others spotting that on my screen.

She's not sexy to me since I find facial/tongue piercings and slutty expressions disgusting (except in extremely rare cases), plus this isn't a site I fap to.

Please? Thanks. I'm trying to read what people are saying and it's rather distracting :p
You just proved my point. Thank you. Its a girl sticking her tongue out, get over it.[/quote]

Just because its just a girl sticking her tongue out, doesn't mean people want to see it, especially if their computer is in the living room. Again, don't be a dick, spoiler that shit.
 

MrHide-Patten

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Because whilst appearances aren't everything, I would be lying (as would a lot of other people) if I said I didn't factor it into the equation. But if the character doesn't have any personality then I find it quite lackluster, which is probably my biggest gripe with Dragons Crown. The characters a blank slates for the player to fill, but it's my personal preference for a character to have some... character. To which Dragon Crown somewhat accomplishes through the aesthetic I suppose.

If women or men take exaggerated caricatures seriously then they shouldn't be breeding in the first place. Characters like in Dragon's Crown, and a majority of other games are fantasies like Jessica Rabbit. The only people that try to make themselves look like cartoon characters (plastic surgery and whatnot) are fuck wits.

As a friend of that could cosplay as the Sorceress (or the Amazon depending on time of year); 'Your body is the billboard and your personality is the product your selling.' It's a good mantra to go by, if you only assume attractive/sexual people are dumb and stupid or bland compared to you the special but ugly snowflake, then the worlds going to be a shallow boring place.
 

nightmare_gorilla

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Fox12 said:
Well, the people who find it sexist or immature don't buy it. It's financial success is completely removed from whether or not the game is on the wrong side of the sexism debate. The thing is, Dragons Crown isn't doing anything new. If the game was released twenty years ago, nobody would bat an eye. There would be no sexism debate, because sexism was, quite frankly, an accepted part of the video game industry. The industry isn't necessarily dominated by men anymore though, and the industry is the fastest growing in entertainment. As a result the industry is growing up, and becoming more inclusive. Yes, there are people who are offended by the game. They don't buy it. They criticize as a work of art. They have that right. There are enough people who will buy it for it to remain profitable. There's nothing wrong with games becoming more inclusive, it should be welcomed. If the game really is a piece of art, then people have a right to praise or criticize it.

Just because a games profitable doesn't mean it's not sexist.

Keep in mind the game isn't sexist because it has attractive women in it. It's sexist because the women have no positive traits outside of sexual appeal.
but that's my whole point. it is profitable, companies don't see it as sexist or not sexist, they see it as profitable or not profitable. and the simple ugly fact is that a game where the main character is a strong, natural looking, well developed female is just not profitable yet. everyone bemoans how terrible this is but the games have been made before, I loved portal but lets be honest the main character being man/woman/black/white/strong/weak had dick all to do with the game itself. there are games out there being made for women and being sold to women. but nobody is buying them, so we don't get any more of them. remember me has a female lead, sure she's not perfect and the game overall aint great, the memory mechanic is awesome but rarely used. but she's normal looking and is even black to boot so why aren't these groups who want more women protagonists buying it in droves. it's because dollar for dollar the people who enjoy sexy scantily clad women are not just a little more powerful they are 10X the number of those who care.

look it's a very simple point. whenever a minority group or even an unrepresented majority wants drastic change they have to make a stand and show people they mean business and their money is worth going after. it's like black people refusing to be moved to the back of the bus unless you ask real nice or unless the bus ride is enjoyable. "i'm having a good time so it's not really worth it to cause a scene but boy is he getting a sternly worded comment card in the suggestion box." i'm not likening game design to jim crow laws but all this internet anger just feels like impotant rage. if you care enough you'll do something about it, something real, clearly people don't care enough.
 

wulf3n

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CloudAtlas said:
And I don't think it's not working. There are much more debates today every time a game with questionable content is published. Games are changing. Just look at 2013's Lara Croft.
You mean a single game that was a failure in it's publishers eyes?

There have been strong, decently written female protagonists throughout gaming history, just look at Jade(BG&E 2003) and April Ryan(TLJ 1999) to name a couple. That's not necessarily indicative of change.
 

lacktheknack

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nightmare_gorilla said:
apparently the overwhelming public opinion is that having attractive women just for the sake of having attractive women is crap, lazy, sexist, dumb, and probably gives you cancer.
You don't frequent other game forums very often, do you?

OT: Because there's demand for that. Where there's legal demand, there is supply.
 

nightmare_gorilla

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seriously, there is no gaming equivalent of tyler perry or the twilight books. you can hate everything about TP and twilight but they make buckets of money because they are marketed directly to a group that is untapped. if there is a marketable demo, someone will find a way to sell them something. and in gaming it just doesn't exist yet. so go make the gaming equivalent of twilight. go make a game version of madea. i'll hate it but the money I don't spend on those is insignificant because the no longer silent minority of people who buy that kind of shit will drown it out.
 

Yuuki

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wulf3n said:
That's not necessarily indicative of change.
I would say it's indicative that we'll continue to get a slow, steady steam of games with "proper" female protagonists/characters...at more or less the same rate. So you're right, I would be inclined to agree there really hasn't been much of a change at all despite all this noise.
I believe we'll just continue to see whatever few female-friendly games that can be achieved with developers/studios that are overwhelmingly male combined with a consumer-base that reflects preferences/trends with their wallets, not words. Not to mention the the consumer-base is also dominantly male, especially the hardcore/"serious" gaming community.

Because that's how publishers rate the success of everything...sales/profits are measured first, criticism comes later.

Proof: SimCity is a success [http://news.techeye.net/software/ea-claims-sim-city-atrocity-was-a-success] as far as EA is concerned, it sold 2 million copies and is holding a steady playerbase. Ha.
 

lacktheknack

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wulf3n said:
CloudAtlas said:
And I don't think it's not working. There are much more debates today every time a game with questionable content is published. Games are changing. Just look at 2013's Lara Croft.
You mean a single game that was a failure in it's publishers eyes?

There have been strong, decently written female protagonists throughout gaming history, just look at Jade(BG&E 2003) and April Ryan(TLJ 1999) to name a couple. That's not necessarily indicative of change.
But Squeenix's expectations were ludicrously high. If you compare Tomb Raider 2013's success to other AAA games that aren't military shooters, it did fine. More than fine. In fact, it was probably 2013's first blockbuster hit. While it wasn't as crazy-popular as Bioshock Infinite, it still did good in gamers' eyes.

And the difference here is in the word "AAA". Beyond Good and Evil was a commercial failure turned cult classic, The Longest Journey was a niche product (both were), Silent Hill 3 has been forgotten in favor of 2 (even though 3 was way better), Velvet Assassin and Wet were disliked... heck, the only two successful AAA games in recent history that I can think of that have female protagonists are Tomb Raider and Mirror's Edge (I'm sure I'm missing a few, but the number isn't high). Now that we're actually landing a AAA game or two with a female protagonist, it actually IS starting to look like change.
 

generals3

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lacktheknack said:
But Squeenix's expectations were ludicrously high. If you compare Tomb Raider 2013's success to other AAA games that aren't military shooters, it did fine. More than fine. In fact, it was probably 2013's first blockbuster hit. While it wasn't as crazy-popular as Bioshock Infinite, it still did good in gamers' eyes.

And the difference here is in the word "AAA". Beyond Good and Evil was a commercial failure turned cult classic, The Longest Journey was a niche product (both were), Silent Hill 3 has been forgotten in favor of 2 (even though 3 was way better), Velvet Assassin and Wet were disliked... heck, the only two successful AAA games in recent history that I can think of that have female protagonists are Tomb Raider and Mirror's Edge (I'm sure I'm missing a few, but the number isn't high). Now that we're actually landing a AAA game or two with a female protagonist, it actually IS starting to look like change.
What you're forgetting is that it's not a matter of sales but Return on Investment. The reason why it was probably deemed a failure is because the ROI was way lower than expected. And that is actually quite telling.

And off course the AAA market is changing, always has. Markets evolve. What is however questionable is whether or not this is caused by "debate" as cloudatlas suggests. I would say no, for the simple reason that what we see here is an extremely vocal minority which the industry knows is a minority and thus tries to shove away as the mild pain in the ass it is being. It's like being pro "hardcore difficulty" in WoW. You may think your group is large because you are vocal, you may think Blizzard gives a flux, but they don't because following your campaigning would make them lose money.
 

wulf3n

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Yuuki said:
Because that's how publishers rate the success of everything...sales/profits are measured first, criticism comes later.
Exactly.

lacktheknack said:
Now that we're actually landing a AAA game or two with a female protagonist, it actually IS starting to look like change.
The key here is looks like change.

Decently written female protagonists are not a new phenomenon, and have appeared at a steady rate throughout gaming history.

Is it possible that we're so desperate for change that we'll cling to anything that looks like change to hide from the reality that what we say ultimately has no weight?
 

Dansrage

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Games can either have large-breasted arm candy, or they can have mannish action heroes, that seems to be the consensus.
Look at any woman in a game written not to be a woman, not to fill the diversity quota but to be a character in her own right, and you'll find nobody cares how big her breasts are or what she looks like.

Unfortunately for women the gaming industry is dominated by men, and men like attractive women, saying they shouldn't is quite frankly ridiculous, no amount of extremist political or social bludgeoning will make men stop liking boobs.

If I liked harlequin romances I'm sure I'd feel marginalized as a man too, and I might complain about female fantasies and try to influence the medium to appeal more to me. Somehow inserting yourself into a hobby or genre dominated by the opposite sex and demanding the majority bend to the will of the minority seems less reasonable when put in another context.

The portrayal of males in Twilight offends me just as much as the portrayal of women in Dragon's Crown offends women, the difference is I don't go and picket openings or make endless complaints because at the end of the day somebody likes something that I don't, and we all have to deal with that in order to live together.

I think the second feminists stop making a big deal out of it everyone will stop caring, my hobby is not a platform for angry women to push their social agenda, or anyone else for that matter.

You can shamelessly lust after Jacob and I can shameless ogle boobs, we can all get along, just don't try and change my hobby to suit your personal sensibilities.
 

Rebel_Raven

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It's gotta be how common it was, and is, and the resistance in changing that.

I dare say it's gotten worse in some ways. As graphisc improved, the old addage that porn revolutionized the world comes into play. The first JPG was marilyn monroe, and so forth.
Boob physics, to say the least. And butt jiggle. More detailed characters, more detailed clothing allowing women to wear less, and less, and look better, and better.

And I gotta ask, where's the revolutions in male physical sexuality on par with that?

What's worse is that women haven't gotten much more agency, and/or leading rolse despite being made into sexual beings. Infact more than a few are just as chatty as they were back in the 80s, and just as "important."
They're still where they were in the 80's, and 90's, and earlier still most of the time. There's been almost nothing of a tradeoff. These things combined with other factors are royally annoying people.

I'm not saying all the sexuality has to disappear. Far from it! I just think it needs to be tempered better with empowered women.
 

TehCookie

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Because people like big boobs? The complainers may be noisy, but that doesn't mean they're the majority.

I don't like them, but I'm a straight women. I don't avoid games over it unless it's really bad, but good gameplay can still redeem the game as well. If you hear me complaining about something it's a lack of manservice. Everyone likes eyecandy, I want some for me as well.
 

clippen05

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I don't know, why aren't other gaming elements that aren't supported by the majority still around? Why are games like ARMA and Red Orchestra made if 80% of people want action-packed games like COD and Battlefield? Why do games like FTL exist if most people don't like a difficult challenge? Why are PC games still made when the majority of people play on consoles? Simply, because there's a market for it; if no one bought Dead or Alive, they would stop making them. But the difference between these titles is that unrealistic portrayals of women are considered "offensive." What if I told you that unrealistic portrayals of soldiers in games like COD and Battlefield: Bad Company were offensive to real veterans? No one would complain about that. Is inaccurately portraying women > than inaccurately portraying veterans? I don't think so, but yet feminists and white-knights need something to complain about on the internet so here we are. Women aren't the only things portrayed inaccurately in games... in fact, there is very little portrayed accurately in mainstream-games because THEY ARE GAMES. They don't have to conform to reality's ideals.
 

Lightknight

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I think a more important question would be why breast augmentation for individuals who don't need surgery still exists. I think therein lies the answer to both questions.
 

Fox12

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nightmare_gorilla said:
Fox12 said:
Well, the people who find it sexist or immature don't buy it. It's financial success is completely removed from whether or not the game is on the wrong side of the sexism debate. The thing is, Dragons Crown isn't doing anything new. If the game was released twenty years ago, nobody would bat an eye. There would be no sexism debate, because sexism was, quite frankly, an accepted part of the video game industry. The industry isn't necessarily dominated by men anymore though, and the industry is the fastest growing in entertainment. As a result the industry is growing up, and becoming more inclusive. Yes, there are people who are offended by the game. They don't buy it. They criticize as a work of art. They have that right. There are enough people who will buy it for it to remain profitable. There's nothing wrong with games becoming more inclusive, it should be welcomed. If the game really is a piece of art, then people have a right to praise or criticize it.

Just because a games profitable doesn't mean it's not sexist.

Keep in mind the game isn't sexist because it has attractive women in it. It's sexist because the women have no positive traits outside of sexual appeal.
but that's my whole point. it is profitable, companies don't see it as sexist or not sexist, they see it as profitable or not profitable. and the simple ugly fact is that a game where the main character is a strong, natural looking, well developed female is just not profitable yet. everyone bemoans how terrible this is but the games have been made before, I loved portal but lets be honest the main character being man/woman/black/white/strong/weak had dick all to do with the game itself. there are games out there being made for women and being sold to women. but nobody is buying them, so we don't get any more of them. remember me has a female lead, sure she's not perfect and the game overall aint great, the memory mechanic is awesome but rarely used. but she's normal looking and is even black to boot so why aren't these groups who want more women protagonists buying it in droves. it's because dollar for dollar the people who enjoy sexy scantily clad women are not just a little more powerful they are 10X the number of those who care.

look it's a very simple point. whenever a minority group or even an unrepresented majority wants drastic change they have to make a stand and show people they mean business and their money is worth going after. it's like black people refusing to be moved to the back of the bus unless you ask real nice or unless the bus ride is enjoyable. "i'm having a good time so it's not really worth it to cause a scene but boy is he getting a sternly worded comment card in the suggestion box." i'm not likening game design to jim crow laws but all this internet anger just feels like impotant rage. if you care enough you'll do something about it, something real, clearly people don't care enough.
How did you come to the conclusion that well developed female characters aren't profitable? The Last of Us alone disproves this theory. The marketing departments insisted that Ellie not be included on the cover, and didn't want to focus test on female gamers. Businessmen insisted a new IP could never be successful this late in a generation. Well, it sold like hot cakes, and everyone and their grandma who has a PS3 is playing it, and that's despite being released on only a single console, and not even the most successful console of its generation. It's actually outperforming multi-platform games. It's also a front runner for game of the year. Let look at other games that were successful without demeaning anyone.

1) Metroid series (barring Other M)
2) Uncharted
3) Bioshock Infinite
4) Mass Effect
5) The Walking Dead (Lee is a very well written African American character, and Clementine is a very well written child/female character.All female characters are well written, actually.)
6) Tomb Raider reboot
7) To the Moon
8) Knight of the Old Republic
9) The Longest Journey

That was just off the top of my head. Most of the games aren't even old, and many of them were the biggest block busters of the year. The idea that well written, well rounded female characters aren't profitable is a gross misconception in the industry.

Keep in mind, I'm not against sexuality in games, I'm against sexual exploitation and sexism. There's a difference. Heck, Mass Effect has way more nudity than Dragons Crown, and yet it's not sexist, but Dragons Crown is. The ways the characters are portrayed, and the way the sexuality is handled in game, makes all the difference in the world. One is degrading, and one is not.

I also apologize if that sounded pretentious, I really wasn't trying to sound that way, haha.
 

wulf3n

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clippen05 said:
m. But the difference between these titles is that unrealistic portrayals of women are considered "offensive." What if I told you that unrealistic portrayals of soldiers in games like COD and Battlefield: Bad Company were offensive to real veterans? No one would complain about that. Is inaccurately portraying women > than inaccurately portraying veterans?
Don't forget the often racist portrayal of the "enemies" in these games.
 

lacktheknack

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wulf3n said:
Yuuki said:
Because that's how publishers rate the success of everything...sales/profits are measured first, criticism comes later.
Exactly.

lacktheknack said:
Now that we're actually landing a AAA game or two with a female protagonist, it actually IS starting to look like change.
The key here is looks like change.

Decently written female protagonists are not a new phenomenon, and have appeared at a steady rate throughout gaming history.

Is it possible that we're so desperate for change that we'll cling to anything that looks like change to hide from the reality that what we say ultimately has no weight?
My point is that well-written female protagonists in AAA is, in fact, pretty damn new.
 

wulf3n

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lacktheknack said:
My point is that well-written female protagonists in AAA is, in fact, pretty damn new.
Well written protagonist in AAA is just as new.