Why the "big boobs" "absurd female design" still exists?

Sean Deli

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Rebel_Raven said:
The whole "make your own game!" argument is wearing pretty thin on me the way it's thrown about without consideration of anything but the desire to shut the person it's thrown at up.
But what is wrong with this argument???
You want something done and you can't do it yourself. It means you have to purchase interest of someone who can.

If you can promise a game developer major sales in exchange for a game with strong female protagonist then you will get his interest - because "money talks, walks".
It does not even has to be "bestselling game since COD MW" - just enough sales to cover development cost + a tidy profit.

But I hear exactly the opposite argument.
"Share of female gamers in hardcore gaming experiences is low because of lack of good female protagonists.
So make more female protagonists"

This is why the argument "How about you do it yourself" is thrown out.
You promise nothing, but you ask for investment and effort.

In business sense you are telling the game developer to invest into a gamble that might or might not help him expand a market, that is gigantic as it is.
And when the said developer will invest into this gamble - he isn't even guaranteed to profit from this investment, because the second there will be a big market in selling hardcore games to female gamers, you will see Blizzard, Activition and Ubisoft all jump on the bandwagon and elbow the little guy out.


There is money in making games with strong protagonists.
All successes of games with female protagonists are just that: a game, that is carried by a strong protagonist.
That just happens to be female.
 

Tsun Tzu

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IllumInaTIma said:
I have a feeling that people tend to concentrate on wrong side of the argument. I don't find big boobs and ass and revealing clothes offending or tasteless. It's just that I'm tired of it. We have too much big boobs and ass and revealing clothes! And I'm actually with you on that one, I'm loving Dragon's Crown and I find DoA5 to be one of the best fighting games out there, but I just want something else. I want more characters like Chie, Yukiko, or Aigis from Persona series, I want more characters like Ellie and Elizabeth.
This.

I agree absolutely, totally, and whole-heartedly with this sentiment...with one small exception.

I...I still enjoy the revealing clothing. Occasionally. Not all of the time, mind! It really depends on the character, after all and, hell, some characters are damned sexy in full armor*.



*See Hilde and Kayle.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Sean Deli said:
Rebel_Raven said:
The whole "make your own game!" argument is wearing pretty thin on me the way it's thrown about without consideration of anything but the desire to shut the person it's thrown at up.
But what is wrong with this argument???
You want something done and you can't do it yourself. It means you have to purchase interest of someone who can.

If you can promise a game developer major sales in exchange for a game with strong female protagonist then you will get his interest - because "money talks, walks".
It does not even has to be "bestselling game since COD MW" - just enough sales to cover development cost + a tidy profit.

But I hear exactly the opposite argument.
"Share of female gamers in hardcore gaming experiences is low because of lack of good female protagonists.
So make more female protagonists"

This is why the argument "How about you do it yourself" is thrown out.
You promise nothing, but you ask for investment and effort.

In business sense you are telling the game developer to invest into a gamble that might or might not help him expand a market, that is gigantic as it is.
And when the said developer will invest into this gamble - he isn't even guaranteed to profit from this investment, because the second there will be a big market in selling hardcore games to female gamers, you will see Blizzard, Activition and Ubisoft all jump on the bandwagon and elbow the little guy out.


There is money in making games with strong protagonists.
All successes of games with female protagonists are just that: a game, that is carried by a strong protagonist.
That just happens to be female.
Because it assumes the person has something to offer. That's what's wrong with it, for one.
For two, it feels like the equivalent of "STFU!!!" That's not going to help anything.
If people are going to make their own game, they would have, wouldn't they? Thre's no real point in just throwing "Make your own game!" at them, then. Especially when the people throwing out the "Make your own game!" don't even have the courtesy to offer any information on how to do this. Prolly coz it's easier said than done!

Thing is:
I don't have the money to purchase someone who can.
I don't have an idea, the vision, to offer.
I can't offer a decent computer either.
So, what, exactly am I to do?

See, the problem with your plan is I'd need something sure fire. Again, I lack the vision for a female protgonist. I'm not crazy enough to guarentee anything. Without vision, then it's up to them to create the female protagonist.
I'd like to leave it to some pros to make a decent game with a female protagonist. I know they can do it.

If I did have the cash, I'd invest in it.

The problem with the last bit you wrote is that when a game fails with a female protagonist, they blame the female protagonist. Nothing else factors in. Not how bad the game might be, or how much effort they put into letting people know that the game exists. That culminates into the fear of making female protagonists, the demands that they be turned into men, cutting them from the game, moving them to the back of the box, asking them to hold guns, and preventing them from having agency, especially in a straight relationship.

If games with male protagonists were treated the same, we wouldn't have any gendered protagonists anymore.
 

NoeL

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The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.
 

Sandjube

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Seeing as I like androgyny in my guys/girls, big boobs are not really doing it for me. But I can understand that, as long as sex sells, they will keep trying to profit off of it. 'They' being movie produces/game developers/whathaveyou.
 

endtherapture

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LetalisK said:
endtherapture said:
Boobs are okay but people only pick on the games with boobs. There's plenty of games where female characters have resonable proportions and aren't just in to sell through sex, eg. Skyrim, Deus Ex, The Witcher 2
I haven't played it yet, but if it's like the first one(and I think this applies to it as well) I find Witcher 2 being one of the games that doesn't model women in a way so as to sell on sex to be golden irony.
The Witcher 2 has sex in it. It's just kinda there though and isn't a game mechanic or anything.

Despite having sex in it, all the women are reasonably proportioned and normal looking, going from ginger beauties, sultry brunettes, to fat tavern wenches and wizened old women, and Ves who is just completely normal.
 

lapan

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Rebel_Raven said:
Thing is:
I don't have the money to purchase someone who can.
I don't have an idea, the vision, to offer.
I can't offer a decent computer either.
So, what, exactly am I to do?
You can still buy the games that actually offer good females and advertize them to your friends. This way you show the investors/publishers that there actually is a market for such a thing. In the end that's the only effective way as a consumer.

NoeL said:
The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.
There is also people who don't really care about the tits and just like the gameplay.

I for example enjoyed the Soul Calibur series. I don't buy them for tits and i dont even have the time to stare at them during a fight. I like the freedom in the character creation and the big singleplayer mode. Art is always gonna be one of the least important factors in a game for me, at long as it isn't ugly or entirely grotesque.
 

NoeL

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lapan said:
NoeL said:
The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.
There is also people who don't really care about the tits and just like the gameplay.

I for example enjoyed the Soul Calibur series. I don't buy them for tits and i dont even have the time to stare at them during a fight. I like the freedom in the character creation and the big singleplayer mode. Art is always gonna be one of the least important factors in a game for me, at long as it isn't ugly or entirely grotesque.
I don't understand your exception. Soul Calibur can (theoretically) exist without the tits, but they're in there to appeal to tit lovers (you just wouldn't fit that particular demographic - or at least not the demographic that would factor tits into their purchase decision).
 

lapan

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NoeL said:
lapan said:
NoeL said:
The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.
There is also people who don't really care about the tits and just like the gameplay.

I for example enjoyed the Soul Calibur series. I don't buy them for tits and i dont even have the time to stare at them during a fight. I like the freedom in the character creation and the big singleplayer mode. Art is always gonna be one of the least important factors in a game for me, at long as it isn't ugly or entirely grotesque.
I don't understand your exception. Soul Calibur can (theoretically) exist without the tits, but they're in there to appeal to tit lovers (you just wouldn't fit that particular demographic - or at least not the demographic that would factor tits into their purchase decision).
I meant some people don't care about the tits/jiggling at all, in either a positive or negative way, but still enjoy the game enough to buy it.
 

TehCookie

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The Lugz said:
TehCookie said:
Because people like big boobs? The complainers may be noisy, but that doesn't mean they're the majority.

I don't like them, but I'm a straight women. I don't avoid games over it unless it's really bad, but good gameplay can still redeem the game as well. If you hear me complaining about something it's a lack of manservice. Everyone likes eyecandy, I want some for me as well.
that seems fair, but can you describe exactly what it is you're after? more sensual males? insane muscles? perfect complexions? heroism? 'just being nice' cause I really don't know ( as a guy myself ) what it is women actually look for and what I can directly compare between the sexes, if anything.

basically what's the male equivalent of T+A curves and a nice smile?

do tell.
Every girl is different, and I'm fine with any pandering even if it's not to my taste. I hate to reuse examples all the time but Dante's lucifer scene and Solid Snakes ass are prime examples. Toned would be to closest thing to T&A, but people still like different things. Like how men like melons to DFC, girls like muscular to bishounen. For me Leon from RE4 has a great build and a nice tight shirt to show it off without it being in your face. Also some uniqueness, variety is the spice of life so have characters be more diverse than middle aged white dudes with short brown hair.

Girls also love personality but you'll just hear the same answers you stereotypically hear: smart, funny, charming, confident. As long as a character is written well and appealing there is no right personality. If you really don't know what kind of personality go watch a reverse harem anime since they cover all the standards.

Just speaking for me, I like my guys to be a non-cynical drunkards and don't sound like they've been eating gravel. If a female adventurer can wear makeup a male adventurer can be clean instead of covered in dirt.
 

Paradoxrifts

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I just got back from my local comic book store with a hardback full-colour copy of the manga, Highschool Of The Dead. Both the guys behind the counter joked that it was so popular that if they'd wanted to keep it in stock then they'd have to remove it from display.

I make absolutely no apologies for my taste, or lack thereof but I do think that a lot of the people who post about either being driven away by sexualised design are talking straight out of their asses.

If someone threatens not to buy a particular game then the chances are that with or without changes that particular game was likely never going to be on their shopping list anyway. And when someone else threatens only ever buy a particular game on sale because of some bullshit reason or another, I immediately think that all they've just done is openly admit that they like pretty much everyone else prefers to buy things on sale, unless it is particularly appealing to what they want in a video game. It's like openly declaring that you'll do exactly what most people will end up doing anyway. It's simply hilarious.
 

Mobax

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IndomitableSam said:
Why do things with big boobs exist?

Because there are still straight men in the world. And a lot of them are immature. And a lot of them are smart, and they know they can make money by using boobs. Women also know this - it's why we show them off all the time.

Boobs make the world go around.

... Sorry, not in the mood for a sexism discussion today. We'll just go with "yada yada lowest common denominator, boys think boobs are magic hyuk hyuk, penis jokes, old boy's club" and so on.

As a female, I do wish women were portrayed more realistically in all media... then I see Chris Hemsworth and hope the world never changes. Unless it changes into him doing movies with nude scenes.

Everyone's a pig.

... I do put my money where my mouth is though, and only buy games that don't offend me. Best I can do when I've talked myself hoarse.
That is the crux of it. Lowest common denominator, what do the vast majority of straight men appreciate, a nice pair of breasts. But women appreciate a strong man too, and the male protagonists in many games are those archetypes. Sex sells, it's as simple as that. The fact the people complain is irrelevant to the publishers, in fact it's free advertising for their game.

If the gaming demographic contained a large number of horny gay teenage boys we'd see very different scantily clad characters. =p
 

Gronk

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Dansrage said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Wow, if you don't believe women face barriers men don't in the gaming industry... wow. http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/women-use-twitter-expose-video-game-industry-sexism-1C7283842
I trust Kotaku's opinion on feminism about as much as I trust FOX News to report on Muslims.
The "sexism" in the gaming industry in my experience comes from women expecting better treatment than everyone else simply for being women and using sexism as an excuse. I've seen the Twitter wars, I've seen women attempt to maliciously ruin men's careers over baseless allegations of sexism or harassment, and I won't fall for the crocodile tears.
People like Anita Sarkeesian or Richards and the 'Donglegate' scandal prove that a significant number of women in the tech industry use allegations of sexism as a tool to get their way. Sarkeesian has of course been torn to shreds by the public and Richards was fired for her conduct. This doesn't demonstrate that the industry hates women, it demonstrates that 'everyone' hates a certain kind of person who attempts to capitalize on outrage for their own selfish purposes.

My hobby is not a medium for you, or anyone else, to push their political or social agenda, it has no place in escapism.

Anyone can succeed in the videogame industry, the success of indie titles proves that, having breasts or not has no place in a medium where success is determined by results.
Wow.. just .. wow. Congrats on being able to cram so much stupidity into so few words.
 

Lieju

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Mobax said:
But women appreciate a strong man too, and the male protagonists in many games are those archetypes. Sex sells, it's as simple as that.
In my experience, when ever women give a list of their favourite sexy video-game characters, there are a lot less Marcus Fenixes and Kratos'es and more Sephiroths and Alistairs. Which, granted, you can find in JRPG's.



Paradoxrifts said:
I just got back from my local comic book store with a hardback full-colour copy of the manga, Highschool Of The Dead. Both the guys behind the counter joked that it was so popular that if they'd wanted to keep it in stock then they'd have to remove it from display.

I make absolutely no apologies for my taste, or lack thereof but I do think that a lot of the people who post about either being driven away by sexualised design are talking straight out of their asses.

If someone threatens not to buy a particular game then the chances are that with or without changes that particular game was likely never going to be on their shopping list anyway. And when someone else threatens only ever buy a particular game on sale because of some bullshit reason or another, I immediately think that all they've just done is openly admit that they like pretty much everyone else prefers to buy things on sale, unless it is particularly appealing to what they want in a video game. It's like openly declaring that you'll do exactly what most people will end up doing anyway. It's simply hilarious.
Whenever you buy a game (or anything) there will be several factors influencing your decision. Including the art-style. Why is this difficult to believe? If big boobs (or anything) can be a selling point to someone, they will be influencing someone's buying decision to the other direction.

Also, talking as a woman, seeing big breasts bounce around makes me uncomfortable because I know that hurts. There is a reason women wear sports-bras.
Imagine if men getting punched on the groin was considered sexy. Would you like seeing that in your games?
 

Piorn

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I don't really care about "absurd design", nor have I actually played Dragon's Crown, but all too often, "the woman" is just another character next to "the elf" and "the dwarf", with the only defining features being tits.
Sure, I love tits in all shapes and sizes, they're the icing on the character cake. But that's it, you can't base an entire character around their tits.
Don't know if the actual game expands the character, but the marketing surely doesn't.
 

MetalMagpie

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Levitas1234 said:
This site's forum sure has gotten ridiculous
Nah, it's always been like this. There's generally at least one "hot topic" getting a disproportionate number of threads (generally something "controversial"). We're lucky if it's at least tangentially related to video games.

We had a flood of circumcision threads not long ago, which was a bit weird. "Feminism" (and related subjects) come around on a pretty regular basis.

Oh, and watch out for the creepy threads asking for details on people's sex lives.
 

CloudAtlas

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Rebel_Raven said:
The whole "make your own game!" argument is wearing pretty thin on me the way it's thrown about without consideration of anything but the desire to shut the person it's thrown at up.
That's exactly how it is.

Didn't like Man of Steel? Go make your own Superman movie!
Didn't like the Mass Effect ending? Go make your own Mass Effect 3!
Don't like the prevalnce of military shooters? Go make your own shooter!
Don't like feature X of the PS4? Go make your own console!

Ever heard someone saying that? Me neither.

You can demand anything you want, and it's your goddamn right as (potential) customer to do so, but God forbid someone would like to see a little less bosom.

But you can still vote with your wallet, right? Right? Yes, I can, and yes, I do. But I still have the effing right to criticize what I don't like about some game, and to express my wishes for change, just like everyone else does. Everyone saying that I don't is nothing but a hypocrite.
 

MetalMagpie

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NoeL said:
The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.
Speaking as a woman, I still don't understand why sexy images of women (even massively exaggerated ones) are necessarily degrading or need to be removed. Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.