Why the "big boobs" "absurd female design" still exists?

[lapan]

I think I have made my point. It is a matter of personal taste, some people will prefer giant tits in their games (As the other thread has proved), some people seem to actively dislike them (Roughly the same amount according to the other thread) and most people just do not care. I fall into the last camp, I really do not care, unless the art design of the female characters is distracting from the game at large and does not fit the tone, I really could not give a fuck.

I guess we draw our lines differently. For me the line is roughly at DoA Volleyball, which clearly was only about Volleyball in name and in reality about buying them presents, dressing them up and making photoshootings while they take clearly sexual positions.
At least their fighting game had actually unique mechanics as compared to other games of its genre and the boob jiggling was only an easteregg that could be disabled.

A character that just happens to be sexually presented in some way, but has a great personality or a great game to back her up is far away from offending me in any way.

 

[Smeatza]

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

See here [http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=4475&content=4795].

Have you read that paper? You do realise that it only covers factual media or media that presents itself as factual. Right?
"Images in advertisements, television, and music."
"Exposure to thin models"
"Greater exposure to television programming"
"Viewed music videos that contained thin models"
"Mainstream magazines and advertisements"
I could go on.

Every time I see one of these studies I have to remind the person linking it that it refers to forms of media that directly portray unattainable standards as attainable.
So to make the leap of logic that if beauty magazines make body image issues worse, then Jessica Rabbit must do the same, is absurd.

OT:
I find that in most cases people aren't actually saying "we want more games that have decent female characters" but in fact they are saying "we want more AAA games that have decent female characters."
I mean look at the games that people are complaining about just on this page. Halo, Soul Calibur, Lara Croft, all very AAA, all very mainstream. When people say that these supposedly sexist portrayals are "rampant" or "commonplace" etc. I just don't think it's true, they are the visible minority.
Either that or I'm the only individual in the world that can avoid these sexist representations 9 out of 10 times without any conscious effort whatsoever.
It's like looking at Hollywood action movies and concluding from that, that Bruce Willis is rampant in all movies, regardless of nationality, popularity, genre or the individuals involved in production.

 

[Negatempest]

Spoiler: Long quote :P

Personally see nothing wrong with it. Other than the Sorceress looking pretty damn hot, nothing about her is sexist. She handles her own just as well as the next guy. To complain about her lack of armor, considering she is a magic user, considering her opponents are ogres, dragons and demons is silly. To say it isn't practical for a magic user to wear heavy armor of some kind is to ignore how impractical it is to solo fight a dragon the size of a T-Rex or larger. The very force from such a creature would easily kill a person from one strike.

Complaining about Sorceress lack of armor and ignore the other front line fighters of Dwarf and Amazon is odd. Yes, fighter has armor...but he doesn't benefit much from it at all. Long story short, in most Fantasy based game any armor is decoration at best. In no way shape or form in a practical situation should a person believe metal armor will protect them from attacks from dragons and demons who cause tremors when they walk.

Let me give you some advice: The last thing defenders of jiggling bosoms & and revealing outfits should do is invoking realism. Also, you have some wrong conceptions about what people complain?

A mage not wearing armor? Totally fine. The boobs of this mage jiggling so much that they almost slap her face when she's running? There's a reason why sport bras exist. The sorceress would be in excruciating pain all the time, and, I would imagine, this constant strain on the tissue would lead to serious damage. No adventurer who is neither totally retarded nor extremely masochistic would wear such an outfit, ever.

You know, the skin-tight cat-suits of your Batwoman, Black Widow, or Aeon Flux-like characters might not be what actual persons in the same situations would choose to wear, but at least they keep everything in place.

Short story long, in most fantasy games armor would be actually useful. Maybe not against all enemies, but against most. You're never fighting only the prime evil himself. Besides, dragons and demons are not the only thing your everyday fantasy adventurer needs to worry about. There's a reason why Bear Grylls isn't running around naked. But that's not even the point. Fact is that many male characters in any such world feel the need to wear heavy armor, and the only reason for doing so is because it provides them significant benefits. Hence, female characters of the same profession would want to wear the same armor. Anything else would be internally inconsistent.

But again, you tell me not to look at large boobs as realistic, which is true. But in the other hand you are telling me the large boobs in the fantasy game should have a sports bra to support her back? Why are you going in circles? You are using realism to back up the fantasy argument.

That is my point of fantasy being fantasy. They can take hits from creatures that would destroy them regardless of what kind of armor they are wearing. They guy in heavy armor can usually jump as high as the rogue in leather armor. So there is no reason to take armor seriously. From which some guys would run around in armor just like there would be female knights that would run around in armor, but I would be like the Dwarf/Amazon and say, "F' armor, did you see the size of that ogres arms and axe? I'd rather be nimble that even try to take that head on with armor."

As I said before and say it again. In a fantasy setting, armor is nothing more than decoration for the body. If you think you look hot in full armor, do it. If you think you look hot with something similar to lingerie than wear that. Cause everyone is gonna either die equally or take the same hit regardless of armor type.

 

[Tanis]

Because people WANT it.

It's the same reason why sexy people doing not sexy things (like eat fast food or drink booze or pose is weird position) sale stuff.

!!!HUMANITY-IS-SHALLOW!!!

As long as sex sales, you will have sex in your media.

 

[Uhura]

But I do find it quite funny when a small minority of people manage somehow to become so liberal that they end up wrapping right round and agreeing with hard-line conservative Christians/Muslims. A woman with her tits out is a woman being degraded! Cover up your women!

Who exactly are you talking about? Who has argued for this?

 

[BitterLemon]

I work with art for games for about 4 years and I have been in multiple brainstorm reunions to decide art style, which demographics target to, how to appeal to such demographics... and quite honestly, those kind of decisions are taken mostly from pure guess. We had statistics of gender and age, but those don't answer exactly what those populations want from their games.

Once, I was working in a game intended for females from 25-35 age range and there wasn't any females working in the company, because.. well, it's a small games company, so the chances of having a female worker were low. So, what a bunch of IT guys could predict of female tastes? Dolphins. Flowers. Cute animals. Those were the themes that came out of the reunion.

At home, my sister, who was in that age range, was playing Red Dead Redemption. She barely knew how to handle a dual stick controller, but she learned just to play Red Dead, a game about ugly man killing each other. She clocked more than 30 hours in that game and finished it. I said that at work, but the answer were "nah, your sister is a exception". Anyone had any data about it? No... just "gut feeling".

Sometimes, when creating female characters, my boss would come and give his opinion: "You know, why don't you make some big tits? Like those you'd stick your face between them and lick, ya'know? " He really mean it, he would justify with things like "the kids like it, hell, I like it!". Maybe someone from the team would aproach and say "wow, what a hottie. Man, why don't you make a bigger ass?".

My producer wasn't this type of guy, but he would often accept those kind of ideias because he thought that could boost sales. But honestly, no one knew for sure. It's just like those preconceived ideias that float around... "boys like to jerk off, right?" and then someone would bring an example of a sucessful game that had gigantic tits, like that was the defyning point of its sucess.

It's pretty much impossible to guess what large demographics really want, it's always a guess... and that guess comes from the imagination of the developers, which still is very predominant male. Sexism is in every media, but I guess cinema, music and literature have a more balanced gender ratio producing content, assuring a wider range of representation and consequently, a wider audience. Games seems stuck in this "boys club" corner and are very reluctant of growing out of it.

 

[MetalMagpie]

But I do find it quite funny when a small minority of people manage somehow to become so liberal that they end up wrapping right round and agreeing with hard-line conservative Christians/Muslims. A woman with her tits out is a woman being degraded! Cover up your women!

Who exactly are you talking about? Who has argued for this?

I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!

 

[Uhura]

I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!

What's the problem with that view? Visual design/wardrobe is part of characterization.

 

[BitterLemon]

In my previous post, I've talked about a content producer standpoint... talking more as a consumer, I avoid buying games that features cheap sexual stuff. I know that they are indulgent to a male like me, but the overabundance of this is hard to swallow.

If you want to make a exercise in alterity, just watch Twilight. There was a time when I was living in a female friend's living room for some weeks and one day, some friends of her decided to watch Twilight just to see shirtless boys. I didn't have nowhere to go, it was a small apartment and I sat there watching the movie. The girls were having a blast, commenting how hot the guys were, who was the hottest, which part of the body was the hottest. They started complaining that it was a shame that was a kids movie 'cause they want to see some sex scenes with the guys. Meanwhile, I was there cringing everytime Jacob would decided to remove his shirt without motive, or when the werewolf shaved dudes appear shirtless in the rain playing with each other just because. Then I started wondering how would be to live my whole life seeing stuff like that in 90% of the games I've played, full of ilogically naked dudes, making sexy poses, flexing their muscles in the rain. It certainly would make me feel like games were a very idiotic thing, made to pander to female primal insticts.

Captcha: Fair or foul
Foul, I say!

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I love Dragon's Crown. I love it so much I'll buy it a couple of times and gift it to friends and family, male and female, brainy and dumb.

I find the run animation of the sorceress and the walk animation of the amazon to be somewhat annoying (downgraded from a week or so of finding it hilarious), but not quite offensive.

After all,

http://cv.uoc.edu/~04_999_01_u07/percepcions/willendorf.jpg

I like sex. I like recreational sex. Big-boobed cartoon characters don't mean a thing to me. Everyone who's played the game will have been rewarded with hi-resolution artwork of sorts, and will have met the somewhat animated females, some captured in varying degrees of stress. Are the motions suggestive? Maybe, if you need a wank or suffer from adolescence or pixelphilia. I think it's all good, nay, better than that: It's awesome and I want more of it, especially since the mechanics are pretty perfect, as well. Best throwback to 1990's arcade gaming of the decade right there, plus a huge, long bow to artists and art of old. Tingles my muffin in all the right places.

 

[NoeL]

So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?

"Invalidate" is the wrong word, but it certainly cheapens them. To use a real world analogy, let's say you go to two female doctors - identical twins in fact, both of whom are very attractive. One of them has their blouse done up, is wearing stylish pants, and has modest and professional makeup and hairstyle. She's still an absolute stunner and dresses well, but dresses professionally. The second twin on the other hand has a pair of fake DD boobs hanging out of her top, wears a ridiculously short skirt and speaks in sultry whispers. Even though both may be perfectly competent doctors, are you going to pick the one that looks like a doctor or one that looks like a pornstar playing a doctor? Why?

I would argue most people would prefer the professional looking doctor. It may or not be fair but the sexed-up twin comes across as cheap. Ever see a bad movie where they've cast a ditzy blonde actor as a neuroscientist and think "Couldn't they have gone with something more believable?" They've picked an actor based on sex appeal rather than fitting the role, and it's distracting because what's presented on screen doesn't match your expectations. I find it insulting that they think I'd rather look at a hot girl than a believable neuroscientist, but that's a different issue. It's the same thing in games, where they create an interesting character that I would like to interact with then go "Nope, even though she completely fits the bill she's not interesting enough to stand on her own. Give her some massive cans and we can call it a day." And now suddenly she doesn't look like the thing she's meant to be, but instead a pornstar playing the thing she's meant to be.

Imagine if in Beyond Good & Evil 2 they decide to make Jade look like this [http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/176/5/a/beyond_good_and_evil___jade_by_ganassa-d54tscg.jpg]. She goes from being a believable investigative reporter to a pornstar pretending to be an investigative reporter in a misguided attempt to pander to men. It sounds a bit silly to say a fictional character deserves more respect that that, but come on.

I'm not suggesting there can't be sexy characters in games, but there's no need to make every character a sex symbol - especially when it detracts from the game itself.

 

[aba1]

To be honest I don't see why it is offensive to have skimpy outfit on top of that all why people only seem to notice when it is women when guys tend to have just as much in the way of skimpy outfits. Honestly you show me a game with girls in skimpy outfits and the same game will have shirtless guys with chiseled features. So it goes both ways but lets say that doesn't matter it is still bad I have to ask why? It can't be because of unrealistic designs since 99% of games aren't realistic to begin with. It can't be that animated women somehow make women feel bad about their bodies because 99% of the time the games are aimed at a male demographic anyways and that being said the male forms would actually be the big concern. Besides if your daughter is getting depressed because fictional characters look good she lacks perspective and any sorta realistic expectations in life and her looks are the least of her problems. Could the problem be that it promotes skimpy outfits cause that really shouldn't be a problem either why should women feel bad for showing their physic there is nothing wrong with the female or male form and people should be allowed to dress how ever the like.


Maybe my perspective is just odd but if it were up to me people could walk around naked for all I care the human form isn't anything to be embarrassed about nor should it be shunned and even if someone is unrealistically proportioned you shouldn't be modeling your own self image after other people to begin with. People need to grow the hell up and learn to appreciate themselves and not base their own self worth on others and if you can't get over your own hangups then you shouldn't be taking your problems out on the things around you, you should be spending that time working on self improvement either mentally or physically or both.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Thing is:
I don't have the money to purchase someone who can.
I don't have an idea, the vision, to offer.
I can't offer a decent computer either.
So, what, exactly am I to do?

You can still buy the games that actually offer good females and advertize them to your friends. This way you show the investors/publishers that there actually is a market for such a thing. In the end that's the only effective way as a consumer.

Yep! it's become quite a hobby of mine, and my SO's. A few friends of mine are doing that, too. You really have to search for games with female protagonsits, though. Not everyone has the same circle of gaming news, so some stuff slips under the radar.

And you're right. The gaming industry cares nothing for no one, but what money they can get. I make it a habit to get the games I enjoy, and games with female protagonists as often as I can, which is rare.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

The whole "make your own game!" argument is wearing pretty thin on me the way it's thrown about without consideration of anything but the desire to shut the person it's thrown at up.

That's exactly how it is.

Didn't like Man of Steel? Go make your own Superman movie!
Didn't like the Mass Effect ending? Go make your own Mass Effect 3!
Don't like the prevalnce of military shooters? Go make your own shooter!
Don't like feature X of the PS4? Go make your own console!

Ever heard someone saying that? Me neither.

You can demand anything you want, and it's your goddamn right as (potential) customer to do so, but God forbid someone would like to see a little less bosom.

But you can still vote with your wallet, right? Right? Yes, I can, and yes, I do. But I still have the effing right to criticize what I don't like about some game, and to express my wishes for change, just like everyone else does. Everyone saying that I don't is nothing but a hypocrite.

I definitely can't argue. Unfortunately until people start bonking people over the head saying "If I could do that, I'd have done it" it's not going to stop. Heck, it may never stop, even then.

People don't even really say that about fast food, and frankly you -can- make that for fairly cheap. When was the last time you ever heard:
"You don't like Hardees (or carl's jr depending)? Make your own burgers!!"

Lets not forget Doublefine's kickstarter for a game. Started off less than a million. It's up to 3 million due to underestimating the scope of the game.

Honestly, it's a pretty ignorant (IMHO) way to try and end a conversation keeping in mind the post of mine you quoted. I've had 1 or 2 good souls that actually tried to help me out with info on game jams (the nearest one to me isn't for months, though! X( ) and some lowdown on forums where indie developers collaberate. Not anyone who's actually made it, though. <.< That I know of.

Speaking of people who haven't made it, I wonder what percent of indie games have, compared to the ones that haven't?
Really, it's not much of a solution.

And when was the last time some big name company tried to copy an indie game to make money off of it? Most I know of were just ports made by the game creators.

 

[MetalMagpie]

I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!

What's the problem with that view? Visual design/wardrobe is part of characterization.

But it should be a minor part compared to how the character is written and acted. Personality is more important than appearance. There's someone on this thread who claims the character of Cortana in Halo is ruined by the fact she's not wearing any clothes. She's a hologram. She has no anatomical detailing. She doesn't need clothes.

There are also some real hard-core types on this site who say they refuse to buy any game that features a scantily-clad woman on the cover. But I'm not sure I believe them anyway.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I definitely can't argue.

Since I thought I pretty much agreed with you, I'm glad to hear that.

Unfortunately until people start bonking people over the head saying "If I could do that, I'd have done it" it's not going to stop. Heck, it may never stop, even then.
(...)
Honestly, it's a pretty ignorant (IMHO) way to try and end a conversation keeping in mind the post of mine you quoted. I've had 1 or 2 good souls that actually tried to help me out with info on game jams (the nearest one to me isn't for months, though! X( ) and some lowdown on forums where indie developers collaberate. Not anyone who's actually made it, though. <.< That I know of.

And even if I thought the argument "go make your own game" had any merit in the first place, which I don't, I really wonder how people imagine I should go about this.

Should I quit my job? Should I go back to university to study game design? Even if I did that, thing is, I prefer big, expensive triple-A games. Now even if I had really cool ideas, which I probably won't, and was in any way qualified to lead the necessary big team, which I'm not, I unfortunately can't pull out the 50 million ? or so that I'd need to make such a game out of my arse. And even if I somehow managed to do all that, what if I'm unhappy about my car as well? And my bank? And the food in the restaurant? And the politics of my country? Should I become an engineer, finance expert, chef, and politician as well?

I'm not 16 anymore, and there's other stuff than games I care about as well. "Go make your own games" is simply one of the most idiotic arguments made in this debate, and that's saying something.

 

[Bruce]

I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!

What's the problem with that view? Visual design/wardrobe is part of characterization.

But it should be a minor part compared to how the character is written and acted. Personality is more important than appearance. There's someone on this thread who claims the character of Cortana in Halo is ruined by the fact she's not wearing any clothes. She's a hologram. She has no anatomical detailing. She doesn't need clothes.

There are also some real hard-core types on this site who say they refuse to buy any game that features a scantily-clad woman on the cover. But I'm not sure I believe them anyway.

Not really, when you consider that fashion can act as a rudimentary language. It tends to identify social group, status etc...

So it becomes a bit like a character who starts every sentence with the word 'fuck'. Sure they might be nice, helpful and overall decent characters otherwise, but it isn't really a minor point of characterisation.

 

[Uhura]

I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!

What's the problem with that view? Visual design/wardrobe is part of characterization.

But it should be a minor part compared to how the character is written and acted. Personality is more important than appearance. There's someone on this thread who claims the character of Cortana in Halo is ruined by the fact she's not wearing any clothes. She's a hologram. She has no anatomical detailing. She doesn't need clothes.

The visual design/wardrobe is not really something superficial that is just tacked on the character, it's part of the way the character is written. That's why the visual design of a character can very easily have a negative effect on the character's overall characterization and the way the character's personality is viewed by the audience. I mean, why do you think movie studios employ costume designers and make up artists if the appearance of characters didn't really matter that much? Couldn't the hobbits just wear jeans and t-shirts to Mordor?

If you want to write a non-cheesecake game starring a professional soldier you will hamper that characterization if you decide to dress her in high heels and a bikini. That's why I don't really see why the comment "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes" is problematic to you. Making that comment doesn't mean that the person cares more about the appearance than the personality of the character, and it's not really just some vapid throwaway whine about the character's clothes. It usually just means that the person finds the visual design of the character somehow immersion breaking.

There are also some real hard-core types on this site who say they refuse to buy any game that features a scantily-clad woman on the cover. But I'm not sure I believe them anyway.

Haven't seen anyone say that. And why would that be an issue? Or hardcore?

 

[6_Qubed]

I'm just going to pop into this discussion long enough to say that I can't really contribute anything to it one way or another because while I can understand how some female gamers can be offput by the bountiful bevy of bosoms that seem to crop up around the veritable cornucopia of culture that can all be summed up as "Nerd Shit", not just gaming, I myself am a male gamer who was exposed to the likes of Jessica Rabbit and Elvira, Mistress of the Dark at a fairly young age, and it affected me.

Which is not to say I demand a G-cup minimum on the female characters in my games, but neither does it bother me. Unless they're supposed to be minors, because seriously. Ew.

That being said, I'm out.

 

[deadish]

apparently the overwhelming public opinion is that having attractive women just for the sake of having attractive women is crap, lazy, sexist, dumb, and probably gives you cancer. so if everyone hates it so much then why do they continue doing it?

If by "overwhelming public opinion" you mean the vocal minority on the Escapist's holier-than-thou armchair analyst forums, then yes.

For the rest of the world, they either don't give a crap or actively enjoy the eye candy.

Games are escapism. Why wouldn't you want to see "pretty pixels" in your fantasy?

Do you fantasize about being a dragon slaying hero who saves ... an obese uncouth princess?