Why the "big boobs" "absurd female design" still exists?

CloudAtlas

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Negatempest said:
Personally see nothing wrong with it. Other than the Sorceress looking pretty damn hot, nothing about her is sexist. She handles her own just as well as the next guy. To complain about her lack of armor, considering she is a magic user, considering her opponents are ogres, dragons and demons is silly. To say it isn't practical for a magic user to wear heavy armor of some kind is to ignore how impractical it is to solo fight a dragon the size of a T-Rex or larger. The very force from such a creature would easily kill a person from one strike.

Complaining about Sorceress lack of armor and ignore the other front line fighters of Dwarf and Amazon is odd. Yes, fighter has armor...but he doesn't benefit much from it at all. Long story short, in most Fantasy based game any armor is decoration at best. In no way shape or form in a practical situation should a person believe metal armor will protect them from attacks from dragons and demons who cause tremors when they walk.
Let me give you some advice: The last thing defenders of jiggling bosoms & and revealing outfits should do is invoking realism. Also, you have some wrong conceptions about what people complain?

A mage not wearing armor? Totally fine. The boobs of this mage jiggling so much that they almost slap her face when she's running? There's a reason why sport bras exist. The sorceress would be in excruciating pain all the time, and, I would imagine, this constant strain on the tissue would lead to serious damage. No adventurer who is neither totally retarded nor extremely masochistic would wear such an outfit, ever.

You know, the skin-tight cat-suits of your Batwoman, Black Widow, or Aeon Flux-like characters might not be what actual persons in the same situations would choose to wear, but at least they keep everything in place.

Short story long, in most fantasy games armor would be actually useful. Maybe not against all enemies, but against most. You're never fighting only the prime evil himself. Besides, dragons and demons are not the only thing your everyday fantasy adventurer needs to worry about. There's a reason why Bear Grylls isn't running around naked. But that's not even the point. Fact is that many male characters in any such world feel the need to wear heavy armor, and the only reason for doing so is because it provides them significant benefits. Hence, female characters of the same profession would want to wear the same armor. Anything else would be internally inconsistent.
 

A Weakgeek

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Game devs will adapt to marketing for women once its profitable enough to be worth it. That change will happen independantly from people bitching on forums.

Look at casual games on facebook for example. They know women are a large demographic there, and thus the games are made and marketed in a way that doesn't offend women.
 

NoeL

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MetalMagpie said:
NoeL said:
The simple answer is that the outcry still hasn't gotten loud enough to affect the bottom line. People are still generally ok with buying games that degrade women, either because they don't know or don't care that that's the case - they just like the tits.
Speaking as a woman, I still don't understand why sexy images of women (even massively exaggerated ones) are necessarily degrading or need to be removed. Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.
For the most part I'm in agreement with you, and I know girls that like the big boobs as much as any guy does, but it becomes degrading when interesting, complex, competent female characters are reduced to T&A to push more copies. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against porn in games (or porn in general) so I don't have a problem with the DoA girls or the Sorceress or anything like that, it's more characters like Cortana for example. She's a smart, competent, loyal companion... and hey, you can fap to her too! Go on, she's naked! :S

To answer your question though:
Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.
See here [http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=4475&content=4795].

We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.
Who's talking about "banning"? You don't have the right to ban, but you most certainly have the right to complain and make your voice heard if you have a problem with people making your gender look silly. If you're fine with it, cool - no one's forcing you to be upset. But if not, you ARE allowed to say something about it.

I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.
But there's no more evidence that looking at sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent! :p I agree with you though, and get annoyed beside you if someone tries to promote those things.
 

lapan

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NoeL said:
For the most part I'm in agreement with you, and I know girls that like the big boobs as much as any guy does, but it becomes degrading when interesting, complex, competent female characters are reduced to T&A to push more copies. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against porn in games (or porn in general) so I don't have a problem with the DoA girls or the Sorceress or anything like that, it's more characters like Cortana for example. She's a smart, competent, loyal companion... and hey, you can fap to her too! Go on, she's naked! :S
You yourself point out many positive points about Cortana. How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?

Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.

And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.
 

NoeL

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lapan said:
How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?
By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

lapan said:
Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.
I disagree.

lapan said:
And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.
I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.
 

I.Muir

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A)The obsession with giant boobs and wide thighs is a part of male reproductive instincts.
B)Men respond greatly to scantily clad women, more so than women to scantily clad men even.
C)Men are a larger part of the industry at the moment and no I don't think there is anything actually stopping women from joining IT fields other than lack of interest.
D)The gaming industry is especially slow to move with the times and stagnates quickly.
E)It sells.

There I explained it to you, now you can go about your lives.
 

lapan

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NoeL said:
lapan said:
How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?
By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

lapan said:
Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.
I disagree.

lapan said:
And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.
I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.
So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?
 

MetalMagpie

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NoeL said:
To answer your question though:
Who are they harming?

There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.
See here [http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=4475&content=4795].
That article is talking about fashion magazines (and the fashion industry in general) promoting a very thin body shape by using images of skinny models. The argument is that young women can end up believing that they need to match the figures of the models. It's important to note here that the body-shapes they're being told to aspire to really do exist. The body shape may be unachievable for most people, but those models manage it. The danger is when women think they should be able to manage it too.

What we're talking about here are video games (especially ones aimed predominantly at men) using images of drawn women who have exaggerated curves. I have not seen any evidence that cartoon images of women have the same affect as photos. The busty women in video games have obviously stylised and exaggerated figures. Whereas the fashion models are seen as being real.

NoeL said:
We women aren't special. We don't get the right ban any image that makes our gender look silly, or promotes the fact that many men find parts of our bodies attractive. That would be insane.
Who's talking about "banning"? You don't have the right to ban, but you most certainly have the right to complain and make your voice heard if you have a problem with people making your gender look silly. If you're fine with it, cool - no one's forcing you to be upset. But if not, you ARE allowed to say something about it.
You're certainly allowed to complain, and I'm allowed to say I disagree with you. I guess all I want to make clear is that I'm absolutely fine with such images of women existing. I don't take myself so seriously that I can't laugh at my own gender. Men and women are both wonderful and silly in their own ways. :)

NoeL said:
I'll get annoyed when I see a video game promoting sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence.
But there's no more evidence that looking at sexual assault, forced marriage or domestic violence makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent! :p I agree with you though, and get annoyed beside you if someone tries to promote those things.
There's no more evidence it causes harm, but there's plenty of evidence it upsets people. A lot. And it's against the law in many countries. (Which is a bit of a free-speech issue, but we'll leave that well alone.)

The general evidence seems to be that only a minority of people are upset by images of busty women. The Sun is the most popular daily newspaper in the UK, and it proudly includes a topless model on its third page.
 

MetalMagpie

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lapan said:
NoeL said:
lapan said:
How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?
By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

lapan said:
Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.
I disagree.

lapan said:
And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.
I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.
So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?
Or totally covered up at all times. Loose, modest clothing. Maybe in some sort of dark colour...

I'm being silly. ;)

But I do find it quite funny when a small minority of people manage somehow to become so liberal that they end up wrapping right round and agreeing with hard-line conservative Christians/Muslims. A woman with her tits out is a woman being degraded! Cover up your women!
 

Mr F.

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lapan said:
NoeL said:
lapan said:
How is she reduced to Tits and Ass?
By looking like this [http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8170874687_ab4df8c635_k.jpg]. Kudos for at least making her look real, but she was clearly designed to elicit awkward teenage boners and amateur hentai. And again, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it weren't for the fact we're supposed to take her seriously and bond with her. Whacking off to porn is one thing, whacking off to a photo of your cute friend is creepy and kinda disrespectful.

lapan said:
Only a few people except on the very extremes of both sides of the argument objectify them in that manner.
I disagree.

lapan said:
And just for the record: DC neither is nor tries to be a porn game.
I'm using "porn" in a very loose way, to describe gratuitous intent to illicit sexual arousal. So all the DoA girls, Taki, Ivy, Lara Croft, etc. would have pornographic design.
So a sexual design automatically invalidates even a good personality?
If bigger than average breasts or skin catch your attention so much you can't enjoy a game/only enjoy it because of them i'm sorry for you.

What do you even propose as solution? Should every female from now on be a child or ugly so they can't possibly be objectified by anyone?
The internet died and ate my post.

Its not that a sexual design automatically invalidates a good personality, but it can detract from one. It can distract one from a good character design. Its not that bigger than average breasts or skin catch attention so much you cannot enjoy a game, it is just that they can catch your attention briefly and therefore detract from the enjoyment of a game.

There is nothing wrong with sexy character design, but it has its place. That's it. Sometimes it massively detracts from tone, sometimes it is just massively distracting. Would Skyrim have been a better game if it had DoA style characters? Some people think so, go look at the Nexus and forget to filter out "Adult" mods from the top 25 list.

Using the Cortana example, was anything added to her character when she was made sexier? Was anything lost?

Personally, I found the first two series of a Game of Thrones, whilst incredibly well acted and based on stunning material (I have read the books), to contain way too much tits and ass. I found it distracting, I found it detracted from a good plot, I found it, at times, to be shoehorned in (Granted, its a while since I read the first books, but I was 14 and horny as fuck, I would have REMEMBERED if important scenes took place in a brothel complete with writhing lesbians.). I found the third series to be by far the best, the lack of soft-core pornography being one of the reasons I found it to be so much better. Was anything lost by toning down the tits? Was anything gained?

I think I have made my point. It is a matter of personal taste, some people will prefer giant tits in their games (As the other thread has proved), some people seem to actively dislike them (Roughly the same amount according to the other thread) and most people just do not care. I fall into the last camp, I really do not care, unless the art design of the female characters is distracting from the game at large and does not fit the tone, I really could not give a fuck.

EDIT:
Retrograde said:
I know this is a crazy idea, but just maybe these games are being made by human beings with their own tastes and preferances, and maybe they're making games they want to make and creating art they want to see, and these teams don't exist solely to please the spoiled fucking whims of entitled fucking babies that'll spit their damn dummy out and let the internet know how righteously offended they are whenever something exists in a game that wasn't made with their personal tastes in mind.
You know, I hate this idea that talking about issues within gaming makes one entitled. One is not entitled if one notices something they do not like. One is not being a whiny baby if one accepts that games do not exist in a vacuum.

You have, quite deliberately, insulted everyone who disagrees with you. For that you have been reported. You have added nothing whatsoever to the debate, bar a sweeping attack on those who are for whatever reasons arguing that perhaps giant breasts and ass are not always called for in gaming.

Art is not above criticism. Games are made to please an audience, the audience has the right to state that things within games are not to their taste. Deal with it.

Plus there are people like myself. I did not bring it into my response, but I have spent the last year writing essays on the media, on current culture and on society in general (Sociology/History double major. With a healthy scattering of Media and Cultural studies modules.). For people like myself, this sort of topic is our bread and butter. Hell, I will be writing my dissertation on something to do with gaming (Still thinking about it.)

and these teams don't exist solely to please the spoiled fucking whims of entitled fucking babies
Just to make this doubly clear, no, these teams exist to please the market. People like myself are part of that market. And we can say whatever we fucking please.
 

lapan

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Mr F. said:
I think I have made my point. It is a matter of personal taste, some people will prefer giant tits in their games (As the other thread has proved), some people seem to actively dislike them (Roughly the same amount according to the other thread) and most people just do not care. I fall into the last camp, I really do not care, unless the art design of the female characters is distracting from the game at large and does not fit the tone, I really could not give a fuck.
I guess we draw our lines differently. For me the line is roughly at DoA Volleyball, which clearly was only about Volleyball in name and in reality about buying them presents, dressing them up and making photoshootings while they take clearly sexual positions.
At least their fighting game had actually unique mechanics as compared to other games of its genre and the boob jiggling was only an easteregg that could be disabled.

A character that just happens to be sexually presented in some way, but has a great personality or a great game to back her up is far away from offending me in any way.
 

Smeatza

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NoeL said:
MetalMagpie said:
There's no more evidence that looking at sexy images makes men behave differently towards women than there is that playing violent video games makes people violent.
See here [http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=4475&content=4795].
Have you read that paper? You do realise that it only covers factual media or media that presents itself as factual. Right?
"Images in advertisements, television, and music."
"Exposure to thin models"
"Greater exposure to television programming"
"Viewed music videos that contained thin models"
"Mainstream magazines and advertisements"
I could go on.

Every time I see one of these studies I have to remind the person linking it that it refers to forms of media that directly portray unattainable standards as attainable.
So to make the leap of logic that if beauty magazines make body image issues worse, then Jessica Rabbit must do the same, is absurd.

OT:
I find that in most cases people aren't actually saying "we want more games that have decent female characters" but in fact they are saying "we want more AAA games that have decent female characters."
I mean look at the games that people are complaining about just on this page. Halo, Soul Calibur, Lara Croft, all very AAA, all very mainstream. When people say that these supposedly sexist portrayals are "rampant" or "commonplace" etc. I just don't think it's true, they are the visible minority.
Either that or I'm the only individual in the world that can avoid these sexist representations 9 out of 10 times without any conscious effort whatsoever.
It's like looking at Hollywood action movies and concluding from that, that Bruce Willis is rampant in all movies, regardless of nationality, popularity, genre or the individuals involved in production.
 

Negatempest

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CloudAtlas said:
Negatempest said:
Personally see nothing wrong with it. Other than the Sorceress looking pretty damn hot, nothing about her is sexist. She handles her own just as well as the next guy. To complain about her lack of armor, considering she is a magic user, considering her opponents are ogres, dragons and demons is silly. To say it isn't practical for a magic user to wear heavy armor of some kind is to ignore how impractical it is to solo fight a dragon the size of a T-Rex or larger. The very force from such a creature would easily kill a person from one strike.

Complaining about Sorceress lack of armor and ignore the other front line fighters of Dwarf and Amazon is odd. Yes, fighter has armor...but he doesn't benefit much from it at all. Long story short, in most Fantasy based game any armor is decoration at best. In no way shape or form in a practical situation should a person believe metal armor will protect them from attacks from dragons and demons who cause tremors when they walk.
Let me give you some advice: The last thing defenders of jiggling bosoms & and revealing outfits should do is invoking realism. Also, you have some wrong conceptions about what people complain?

A mage not wearing armor? Totally fine. The boobs of this mage jiggling so much that they almost slap her face when she's running? There's a reason why sport bras exist. The sorceress would be in excruciating pain all the time, and, I would imagine, this constant strain on the tissue would lead to serious damage. No adventurer who is neither totally retarded nor extremely masochistic would wear such an outfit, ever.

You know, the skin-tight cat-suits of your Batwoman, Black Widow, or Aeon Flux-like characters might not be what actual persons in the same situations would choose to wear, but at least they keep everything in place.

Short story long, in most fantasy games armor would be actually useful. Maybe not against all enemies, but against most. You're never fighting only the prime evil himself. Besides, dragons and demons are not the only thing your everyday fantasy adventurer needs to worry about. There's a reason why Bear Grylls isn't running around naked. But that's not even the point. Fact is that many male characters in any such world feel the need to wear heavy armor, and the only reason for doing so is because it provides them significant benefits. Hence, female characters of the same profession would want to wear the same armor. Anything else would be internally inconsistent.

But again, you tell me not to look at large boobs as realistic, which is true. But in the other hand you are telling me the large boobs in the fantasy game should have a sports bra to support her back? Why are you going in circles? You are using realism to back up the fantasy argument. :p

That is my point of fantasy being fantasy. They can take hits from creatures that would destroy them regardless of what kind of armor they are wearing. They guy in heavy armor can usually jump as high as the rogue in leather armor. So there is no reason to take armor seriously. From which some guys would run around in armor just like there would be female knights that would run around in armor, but I would be like the Dwarf/Amazon and say, "F' armor, did you see the size of that ogres arms and axe? I'd rather be nimble that even try to take that head on with armor."

As I said before and say it again. In a fantasy setting, armor is nothing more than decoration for the body. If you think you look hot in full armor, do it. If you think you look hot with something similar to lingerie than wear that. Cause everyone is gonna either die equally or take the same hit regardless of armor type.
 

Tanis

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Because people WANT it.

It's the same reason why sexy people doing not sexy things (like eat fast food or drink booze or pose is weird position) sale stuff.

!!!HUMANITY-IS-SHALLOW!!!

As long as sex sales, you will have sex in your media.
 

Uhura

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MetalMagpie said:
But I do find it quite funny when a small minority of people manage somehow to become so liberal that they end up wrapping right round and agreeing with hard-line conservative Christians/Muslims. A woman with her tits out is a woman being degraded! Cover up your women!
Who exactly are you talking about? Who has argued for this?
 

BitterLemon

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I work with art for games for about 4 years and I have been in multiple brainstorm reunions to decide art style, which demographics target to, how to appeal to such demographics... and quite honestly, those kind of decisions are taken mostly from pure guess. We had statistics of gender and age, but those don't answer exactly what those populations want from their games.

Once, I was working in a game intended for females from 25-35 age range and there wasn't any females working in the company, because.. well, it's a small games company, so the chances of having a female worker were low. So, what a bunch of IT guys could predict of female tastes? Dolphins. Flowers. Cute animals. Those were the themes that came out of the reunion.

At home, my sister, who was in that age range, was playing Red Dead Redemption. She barely knew how to handle a dual stick controller, but she learned just to play Red Dead, a game about ugly man killing each other. She clocked more than 30 hours in that game and finished it. I said that at work, but the answer were "nah, your sister is a exception". Anyone had any data about it? No... just "gut feeling".

Sometimes, when creating female characters, my boss would come and give his opinion: "You know, why don't you make some big tits? Like those you'd stick your face between them and lick, ya'know? :D" He really mean it, he would justify with things like "the kids like it, hell, I like it!". Maybe someone from the team would aproach and say "wow, what a hottie. Man, why don't you make a bigger ass?".

My producer wasn't this type of guy, but he would often accept those kind of ideias because he thought that could boost sales. But honestly, no one knew for sure. It's just like those preconceived ideias that float around... "boys like to jerk off, right?" and then someone would bring an example of a sucessful game that had gigantic tits, like that was the defyning point of its sucess.

It's pretty much impossible to guess what large demographics really want, it's always a guess... and that guess comes from the imagination of the developers, which still is very predominant male. Sexism is in every media, but I guess cinema, music and literature have a more balanced gender ratio producing content, assuring a wider range of representation and consequently, a wider audience. Games seems stuck in this "boys club" corner and are very reluctant of growing out of it.
 

MetalMagpie

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Uhura said:
MetalMagpie said:
But I do find it quite funny when a small minority of people manage somehow to become so liberal that they end up wrapping right round and agreeing with hard-line conservative Christians/Muslims. A woman with her tits out is a woman being degraded! Cover up your women!
Who exactly are you talking about? Who has argued for this?
I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!
 

Uhura

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MetalMagpie said:
I'm being silly. I'm just poking fun at people who say "I would like this female character more if she was wearing more sensible clothes", which is an actual view I've seen on this site!
What's the problem with that view? Visual design/wardrobe is part of characterization.
 

BitterLemon

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In my previous post, I've talked about a content producer standpoint... talking more as a consumer, I avoid buying games that features cheap sexual stuff. I know that they are indulgent to a male like me, but the overabundance of this is hard to swallow.

If you want to make a exercise in alterity, just watch Twilight. There was a time when I was living in a female friend's living room for some weeks and one day, some friends of her decided to watch Twilight just to see shirtless boys. I didn't have nowhere to go, it was a small apartment and I sat there watching the movie. The girls were having a blast, commenting how hot the guys were, who was the hottest, which part of the body was the hottest. They started complaining that it was a shame that was a kids movie 'cause they want to see some sex scenes with the guys. Meanwhile, I was there cringing everytime Jacob would decided to remove his shirt without motive, or when the werewolf shaved dudes appear shirtless in the rain playing with each other just because. Then I started wondering how would be to live my whole life seeing stuff like that in 90% of the games I've played, full of ilogically naked dudes, making sexy poses, flexing their muscles in the rain. It certainly would make me feel like games were a very idiotic thing, made to pander to female primal insticts.

Captcha: Fair or foul
Foul, I say!