Women aren't Babies

[Zen Toombs]

Women do need to be treated like a human being, not a gender.

The irony of that made me giggle.

Anyways, I completely get behind what you have said, with the following sole exception - there is a curse related to vaginas that is, in my opinion, far "worse"[footnote]in level of cursiteude[/footnote] than any curses related to penises.

 

[Woodsey]

I have seen guys get called shit in online games. Not once have I ever seen them being continuously hounded in such a way that it'd probably constitute sexual harassment.

::NEWSFLASH::

This does happen to women. I've seen it in online games, there are plenty of videos on Youtube, and in fact I think there's a site dedicated to posting examples of it.

The treatment of women is a hot topic because - unfortunately - '******' and '******' are mostly used as general slurs by the online gaming community. The shit women get is far more focused and... 'in-depth', shall we say.

Anyway, you're talking about something which has not been the focus of recent discussions of sexism in gaming. The Kickstarter for the video series on women and tropes in gaming is the closest thing to this discussion and even then, it's not actually addressing entirely the same thing.

We disagree a lot. I don't know if that's our personality clashing or if you disagree with a lot of people. Do I rub you the wrong way? Or do we simply happen to end up on opposing sides of a fence? I'd like to know

I dunno, I only pegged you after the last disagreement, and that was a case of you just being wrong. This is, at least, a subjective topic. But like I said, given several recent scenarios, it's not really addressing the crux of the current discussion when it comes to women and gaming.

Namely: the portrayal of women, and whether it's any worse than the portrayal of men. And the most interesting part of that debate is if men and women are portrayed in equally shallow and stereotypical ways, does it 'even things out' when you consider that both gender-stereotypes are aimed at men to begin with?

I don't disagree with the fact that women aren't babies or that they need extra protection, what I disagree with is that they're treated the same way guys are online. It has always, in my experience, been a matter of far more sustained, 'in-depth' harassment. Not just saying '******' over and over again - and that is often the result of provocation (usually not anything I'd consider worthy of provocation, but in their eyes it is, at least), whereas women will be harassed as soon as they pipe up on voice chat or as soon as someone guesses from their username.

 

[Dags90]

I think it depends on where you're at. On the FPS/fighting game circuit, being a woman is shitty a lot of the time. The dynamics are different depending on the community.

The MMO "nice guys" can also turn real nasty if they feel slighted, same as the ones that come moaning to the boards about how the girl they're nice to won't put out and has "friend zoned" them.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Women do need to be treated like a human being, not a gender.

The irony of that made me giggle.

Anyways, I completely get behind what you have said, with the following sole exception - there is a curse related to vaginas that is, in my opinion, far "worse"[footnote]in level of cursiteude[/footnote] than any curses related to penises.

Oh yeah... I missed that irony... Shut up! You know what I meant >_>

By the way, that curse can be a good thing in the right hands. Just sayin'.

That was a case of you just being wrong.

Oh you! lol

I think it depends on where you're at. On the FPS/fighting game circuit, being a woman is shitty a lot of the time. The dynamics are different depending on the community.

The MMO "nice guys" can also turn real nasty if they feel slighted, same as the ones that come moaning to the boards about how the girl they're nice to won't put out and has "friend zoned" them.

Nooo! What have you done! We must never speak of that word.

 

[anthony87]

You can't actually prove that women are picked on by men more often than men insult one another, but you feel comfortable stating: "Because the harassment of women is much more common, more vicious, and part of a society with deeply rooted gender problems."

So you're spreading information you can't back up and are riding a stereotype along the sexism tracks?

No, I am speaking based on my own experiences.

You seem to be presenting your own experiences as if they were general facts. Perhaps in the future you should preface comment like this,"Because the harassment of women is much more common, more vicious, and part of a society with deeply rooted gender problems", with something like "in my personal experience"......

OP: I saw what you typed in the other thread and I agreed with it then as I agree with you know.

Why thank you! Maybe one day we can all come to some kind of consensus and everyone just treats everyone else less shitty, rendering the whole sexism, racism, homophobia thing obsolete.

One day...

And that day will only come when people stop talking about it. I'm not saying it's a good idea to just go ahead and ignore issues but an awful lot of the "problems" come from people talking about problems that frankly aren't there. Example from a thread about Ni No Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch, aka, an RPG that has nothing to do with gender at all:

Miyazaki is an instant sell for me already.
Being a jRPG just makes it all the more so.
I already have it on pre-order with Amazon.
It is a little disappointing in a way, already. Miyazaki is usually known for strong female protagonists. That isn't all he does and shouldn't be all he does. But one gets the feeling that this one doesn't, because it's a video game.
It's still a must buy though, and one of the reasons I am happy that I own a PlayStation 3.

That bolded part right there really pisses me off. It just screams of seeing a problem where there is none and trying to make an issue out of it and it's those kinds of people that cause others to roll their eyes when they hear "feminist" or something similar.

Seriously, why can't we all just be like Morgan Freeman....imagine how glorious the world if we all had that voice:

(Not the same topic I know but the sentiment is there)

 

[Bloodstain]

I think we should all just stop caring about gender altogether. That being said, we should stop caring about a lot of things.

This is just like the women quota that is being demanded everywhere lately: Why should anyone care whether there are ten or two women in a 15-people leadership of a company? The best people should get the job. All of them are men? Who cares? All of them are women? Who cares?

 

[Thespian]

I admire the sentiment, OP, but you are kind of off. I mean, you assume that men and women on the internet are in the exact same scenario. Not so.

Maybe men are generally met with a lack of sympathy if they talk about being given a hard time on the internet. Maybe women get more sympathy for it. And sure, gender imbalance is a bad thing.

That said though, there's already an imbalance in how they are treated, so there should be one in how they are sympathized with. And changing the latter without changing the former is just silly.
The fact is in most online communities that are relevant to the escapist, males make up the majority. Majority's are generally pricks, FYI. It's pretty simple.

I mean, there's a lot of inequalities. There is no version of "******" or "Get back to the Kitchen" for straight white men. So right away, the amount of respect that men and women are treated with has a definite inequality. Ergo, there should be an imbalance in how people sympathize with them.

You say that we need to protect not women, but people and you're right. And when a women gets a tough time on the internet, and people are disproportionately kind to her over it, I don't consider that just pandering to women.

For example, I'm gay. If I was given a hard time in a community of people where it's well known that I'm gay, I did nothing to provoke anyone, and derogatory terms for homosexual are thrown around a lot, people would probably defend me.
But that's the thing, is it me they are defending? Or is it just the ideal of equality and non-dickery that they are defending?

Because that's what I'm defending any time I see a girl get treated harshly online. There's so MUCH of that crap online for girls you'd think people would just make exceptions more often even if they are usually dickheads. Unfortunately, they don't.

It's really simple, I mean if a guy screws up in an FPS or whatever you kids play online now these days, someone will call him a newfag or something. If a girl screws up, there's usually a barrage of female-specific jokes. It all balances itself out.

(As a side-note, I cringe when I hear thing like "Eh, that's how it is on the net." because sure, it's true but doesn't it translate to "Don't stand up for yourself"? All the talk of "grow a thicker skin" apparently means "Don't say anything back or ask anyone for help"0

 

[m0ng00se]

For social equality, you don't need to "even out" the bad things people do to a group. You just treat them like human beings. Everybody needs to agree to sweep the bullshit under a rug and move on.

It's like a trailer hitched to a car. If the trailer's on an angle, you don't turn to even out the trailer to the direction you want to go. You drive in the direction it needs to go and everything will line up.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Women do need to be treated like a human being, not a gender.

The irony of that made me giggle.

Oh yeah... I missed that irony... Shut up! You know what I meant >_>

Yupp. It was still pretty funny though. ^_^

Anyways, I completely get behind what you have said, with the following sole exception - there is a curse related to vaginas that is, in my opinion, far "worse"[footnote]in level of cursiteude[/footnote] than any curses related to penises.

By the way, that curse can be a good thing in the right hands. Just sayin'.

You just keep walking into these.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You can't actually prove that women are picked on by men more often than men insult one another, but you feel comfortable stating: "Because the harassment of women is much more common, more vicious, and part of a society with deeply rooted gender problems."

So you're spreading information you can't back up and are riding a stereotype along the sexism tracks?

No, I am speaking based on my own experiences.

You seem to be presenting your own experiences as if they were general facts. Perhaps in the future you should preface comment like this,"Because the harassment of women is much more common, more vicious, and part of a society with deeply rooted gender problems", with something like "in my personal experience"......

OP: I saw what you typed in the other thread and I agreed with it then as I agree with you know.

Why thank you! Maybe one day we can all come to some kind of consensus and everyone just treats everyone else less shitty, rendering the whole sexism, racism, homophobia thing obsolete.

One day...

And that day will only come when people stop talking about it. I'm not saying it's a good idea to just go ahead and ignore issues but an awful lot of the "problems" come from people talking about problems that frankly aren't there. Example from a thread about Ni No Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch, aka, an RPG that has nothing to do with gender at all:

Miyazaki is an instant sell for me already.
Being a jRPG just makes it all the more so.
I already have it on pre-order with Amazon.
It is a little disappointing in a way, already. Miyazaki is usually known for strong female protagonists. That isn't all he does and shouldn't be all he does. But one gets the feeling that this one doesn't, because it's a video game.
It's still a must buy though, and one of the reasons I am happy that I own a PlayStation 3.

That bolded part right there really pisses me off. It just screams of seeing a problem where there is none and trying to make an issue out of it and it's those kinds of people that cause others to roll their eyes when they hear "feminist" or something similar.

Seriously, why can't we all just be like Morgan Freeman....imagine how glorious the world if we all had that voice:

(Not the same topic I know but the sentiment is there)

I think we should all just stop caring about gender altogether. That being said, we should stop caring about a lot of things.

Now, to convince the other 5 billion or so people on Earth who are racist/sexist/homphobic... This might take a while.

 

[Citsuac]

I'm a girl, and I've experienced both the sexism and sexism-less flavors of bullying. and I'd have to say that for whatever reason the sexism makes it feel worse. it's just being singled out and belittled in yet another way. as for the 'women don't need protection' bit....I'd say help never hurt. that's not to say every situation needs its own thread every time shit goes down, but it's nice when it happens to have someone else step in and say 'wow man, you're being a dick. back off.' can't speak for everyone, but if that's being a 'white knight' I could use the help. I'll definitely take it where I can get it.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Yupp. It was still pretty funny though. ^_^

It wasn't funny! I was blissfully ignorant of it until you pointed it out. Way to ruin my OP!

You just keep walking into these.

We may be talking about different things. Actually, we probably are.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I'm a girl, and I've experienced both the sexism and sexism-less flavors of bullying. and I'd have to say that for whatever reason the sexism makes it feel worse. it's just being singled out and belittled in yet another way. as for the 'women don't need protection' bit....I'd say help never hurt. that's not to say every situation needs its own thread every time shit goes down, but it's nice when it happens to have someone else step in and say 'wow man, you're being a dick. back off.' can't speak for everyone, but if that's being a 'white knight' I could use the help. I'll definitely take it where I can get it.

Oh, no, no, no. I'm not saying people helping a woman being picked on is bad. Quite the opposite! I'm saying people should help everyone being picked on.

 

[Rutskarn]

...

I think you're missing the point somewhat. Being insulted is a fact of internet citizenship, video gaming, and life itself.

Being insulted *because you are a woman* is something poisonous that we would like to remove from our hobby. Nobody's saying women are precious flowers who can't bear a middle schooler calling her a scrub fucktard, but having a server full of people make fun of her *because she is a woman* makes sexism a instinctive response reinforced by player culture--like how fucked the fighting game community's become. It's a syndrome we'd prefer to do without.

The issue isn't "rudeness towards women." The issue is "knee-jerk rudeness towards any broad category sustaining itself in our hobby." Sex is irrelevant; if someone came to the forums saying that they were routinely mocked because of their race (something admittedly made less apparent in the course of a multiplayer game) we'd react more or less the same.

Keep in mind that there is also some incentive to ensure that women are not driven out of the hobby by a pervasively anti-female culture. Game studios are demanding larger and larger sales figures for their games, and ensuring that half the population isn't singled out and driven away from the lobby is a good way to ensure we *have* games tomorrow.

 

[Icehearted]

Gender is irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-06/justice/justice_rape-definition-revised_1_definition-oral-penetration-sexual-abuse?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/05/breast-cancer-receives-much-more-research-funding-publicity-than-prostate-cancer-despite-similar-number-of-victims/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html

http://ncfm.org/2009/01/issues/mens-reproductive-rights/

Seriously, I could do this for days. I also have a lot of personal anecdotal experiences, including women that have gotten away with rape and molestation because they were women (as stated by prosecuting attorneys and the office of the AG). Women regularly infantilize and commodify themselves, yet seem offended by being infantilized or commodified. The list just goes on and and on.

There's absolutely no such thing as broad gender neutrality, and in my opinion there should not be. As a heterosexual male, I prefer ladies that are ladies, not as asexual or genderless beings. There is a healthy give and take on both sides that many women I've known have admitted enjoying.

Which reminds me; most of the ugliest things I've ever heard said about women in general were by women themselves. I've known a lot of women that just hate how their gender often behaves or what they get away with. It's fascinating, but more frustrating than anything.

 

[Kinguendo]

Really? You think no one cares when someone calls someone else "******" or "******"? Well, consider yourself proven wrong as I care. And it would be nice if no one needed protecting... but that simply isnt the case, and if you are in a position to offer support and you dont then you are not exactly the "good guy" in the story. Not to mention, women are the physically weaker of the 2 genders. Not all women are weaker than all men, but generally speaking women are weaker and that is something beyond a persons control that can be taken advantage of by dickheads... and if you arent helping the person being taken advantage of then consider yourself a dickhead.

Not to mention, being ganged up on for any reason isnt nice. If there are a bunch of sexist pricks and no one is there "playing the white knight" then you only have a hoarde of sexist pricks, only insults and attacks with no one supporting you. That can be hurtful and have negative real world effects, the worst examples of human behaviour didnt stop because of apathy... someone had to take a stand.

When I see someone being sexist I dont think "Ooooh, I can get something out of this by helping.", I think "There is someone whos circumstances of birth are being abused. I should help as it is the right thing to do, and hopefully if the tables are ever turned someone would do the same for me."... I dont want nor expect anything from being a decent person, it is a debt I owe to the entire planet for the rest of my life.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Gender is irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-06/justice/justice_rape-definition-revised_1_definition-oral-penetration-sexual-abuse?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/05/breast-cancer-receives-much-more-research-funding-publicity-than-prostate-cancer-despite-similar-number-of-victims/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html

http://ncfm.org/2009/01/issues/mens-reproductive-rights/

Seriously, I could do this for days. I also have a lot of personal anecdotal experiences, including women that have gotten away with rape and molestation because they were women (as stated by prosecuting attorneys and the office of the AG). Women regularly infantilize and commodify themselves, yet seem offended by being infantilized or commodified. The list just goes on and and on.

There's absolutely no such thing as broad gender neutrality, and in my opinion there should not be. As a heterosexual male, I prefer ladies that are ladies, not as asexual or genderless beings. There is a healthy give and take on both sides that many women I've known have admitted enjoying.

Which reminds me; most of the ugliest things I've ever heard said about women in general were by women themselves. I've known a lot of women that just hate how their gender often behaves or what they get away with. It's fascinating, but more frustrating than anything.

So you're into the "traditional roles" thing?

 

[Zen Toombs]

Yupp. It was still pretty funny though. ^_^

It wasn't funny! I was blissfully ignorant of it until you pointed it out. Way to ruin my OP!

Good OP is still good, I just like to nitpick. ^_^

By the way, that curse can be a good thing in the right hands. Just sayin'.

You just keep walking into these.

We may be talking about different things. Actually, we probably are.

Probably, which is part of the point.
See, the curse is another word for vagina, and you said it can be a good thing in the right hands, and I'm just gonna stop explaining my joke now.

I mean, there's a lot of inequalities. There is no version of "******" or "Get back to the Kitchen" for straight white men.

Just sayin, that first word you used tends to be used just as frequently on straight white males. If anything, I've seen it's use on straight males be more overtly inflamatory.

 

[Icehearted]

Gender is irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-06/justice/justice_rape-definition-revised_1_definition-oral-penetration-sexual-abuse?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/05/breast-cancer-receives-much-more-research-funding-publicity-than-prostate-cancer-despite-similar-number-of-victims/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html

http://ncfm.org/2009/01/issues/mens-reproductive-rights/

Seriously, I could do this for days. I also have a lot of personal anecdotal experiences, including women that have gotten away with rape and molestation because they were women (as stated by prosecuting attorneys and the office of the AG). Women regularly infantilize and commodify themselves, yet seem offended by being infantilized or commodified. The list just goes on and and on.

There's absolutely no such thing as broad gender neutrality, and in my opinion there should not be. As a heterosexual male, I prefer ladies that are ladies, not as asexual or genderless beings. There is a healthy give and take on both sides that many women I've known have admitted enjoying.

Which reminds me; most of the ugliest things I've ever heard said about women in general were by women themselves. I've known a lot of women that just hate how their gender often behaves or what they get away with. It's fascinating, but more frustrating than anything.

So you're into the "traditional roles" thing?

Yeah so ignoring most of my post and summarizing one very minute portion of it incorrectly doesn't go very far toward legitimizing your side here.

You just picked something I'd said and took it out of context. How do I reply to that? Like I am now? Okay then.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

See, the curse is another word for vagina, and you said it can be a good thing in the right hands, and I'm just gonna stop explaining my joke now.

I mean, there's a lot of inequalities. There is no version of "******" or "Get back to the Kitchen" for straight white men.

Just sayin, that first word you used tends to be used just as frequently on straight white males. If anything, I've seen it's use on straight males be more overtly inflamatory.

Oh. Yeah. We were totally talking about different things. Her derp.

Why is ****** actually offensive to anyone, anyway? I know what it means and being pansexual I cop it more than your average person probably, but why is it offensive to be called homosexual? Doesn't it make you, the person taking offense, the one with the problem, because you take issue with being called gay, as if it's a bad thing? I get that the person saying it is trying to offend you and it's considered a slur, but... why?

"******!"

-"Being gay is a bad thing?"

"Of course it is, ******!"

-"Not really, no."

/end of