Women aren't Babies

[Kordie]

I'm a girl, and I've experienced both the sexism and sexism-less flavors of bullying. and I'd have to say that for whatever reason the sexism makes it feel worse. it's just being singled out and belittled in yet another way. as for the 'women don't need protection' bit....I'd say help never hurt. that's not to say every situation needs its own thread every time shit goes down, but it's nice when it happens to have someone else step in and say 'wow man, you're being a dick. back off.' can't speak for everyone, but if that's being a 'white knight' I could use the help. I'll definitely take it where I can get it.

The issue at hand here is not that "no one should to help you, or come to your defence". It's that the reason they do it should be because thats whats right and not because your a girl. If a person only defends women, thats a white knight complex, and that person should be helping everyone.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I respect women too much to respect them as women...

Woah... deep...

Gender is irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-06/justice/justice_rape-definition-revised_1_definition-oral-penetration-sexual-abuse?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/05/breast-cancer-receives-much-more-research-funding-publicity-than-prostate-cancer-despite-similar-number-of-victims/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html

http://ncfm.org/2009/01/issues/mens-reproductive-rights/

Seriously, I could do this for days. I also have a lot of personal anecdotal experiences, including women that have gotten away with rape and molestation because they were women (as stated by prosecuting attorneys and the office of the AG). Women regularly infantilize and commodify themselves, yet seem offended by being infantilized or commodified. The list just goes on and and on.

There's absolutely no such thing as broad gender neutrality, and in my opinion there should not be. As a heterosexual male, I prefer ladies that are ladies, not as asexual or genderless beings. There is a healthy give and take on both sides that many women I've known have admitted enjoying.

Which reminds me; most of the ugliest things I've ever heard said about women in general were by women themselves. I've known a lot of women that just hate how their gender often behaves or what they get away with. It's fascinating, but more frustrating than anything.

So you're into the "traditional roles" thing?

Yeah so ignoring most of my post and summarizing one very minute portion of it incorrectly doesn't go very far toward legitimizing your side here.

You just picked something I'd said and took it out of context. How do I reply to that? Like I am now? Okay then.

That was actually a legitimate question and not an insult or anything. I was curious >_<

Bravo, OP, well spoken. Personally I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Why thank you!

And here I was thinking men call men faggots and when a girl joins the party the men all can't believe it and immediately try to see if this woman might let them catch a glimpse of her. Her being a mythical entity rarely seen by them.

If I wasn't a better person, I'd make a basement dweller joke here. But I won't... Just barely...

 

[Erana]

Women aren't babies.

Women don't need people to protect them.

Women don't need white knights.

Women don't need to be treated differently.

Women do need to be treated like a human being, not a gender.

It's no more wrong to call a woman a sexist slur than it is to call a man a dickhead.

Woah, woah woah, wait. You're demanding this of the people that aren't using language worthy of restraining orders? How about you raise your expectation of gamers?

Women's issues are a nice rallying point, and are a frequent point of discussion with the trash-talking in games in part because the motivations for doing so, the situations in which it happens and sort of harassment used are very clear and consistent. Any techniques or whatever used to stop sexual harassment in games should also help deal with general harassment. Women are a potentially powerful force for working against harassment in games because we're united under a much more consistent type of abuse. Its not like we're going to go collectively say "Hey, developers, its nice that you've stopped the sexism, but you better make sure we can still insult gays and minorities and anyone else other than us, 'cause man do I love making racist slurs and insinuating a guy's penis size correlates to his in-game failures!!!"

If you don't want to participate in working against online harassment, fine. But unless you actively object to trying to change the abusiveness of this culture,(as a whole, to everyone) is it too much trouble to ask you to just leave us be?

Also, "I do not want to be harassed for my gender" is not the same thing as, "I want to be protected by a white knight." Your implication there is a wee bit insulting.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Also, "I do not want to be harassed for my gender" is not the same thing as, "I want to be protected by a white knight." Your implication there is a wee bit insulting.

No, no, no. I was talking about the people who leap into action to save the damsel in distress, but couldn't care less about racism or some random guy being picked on by a group of trolls. If you see someone being a douchebag to a woman, by all means, tell them to shove their head up their ass, report them and recommend she mute him. But also do that for everyone else. I don't like this "reverse" sexism, where people feel the need to look out for women specifically any more than straight up sexism.

The message is: help everyone out, not because of their gender, but because helping people is the nice thing to do.

 

[Nemesis729]

I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with.

While you certainly didn't deserve to be called such an offensive slur, or any name at all, because of your sexual orientation (I'm assuming you're a man, can't be sure) you really shouldn't be "flirting" on any level with a boyfriend/girlfriend over a public chat in game. It can be awkward for other people in the chat, similar to PDA in real social situations.

OT: I think you make some good points, though I don't think anything can really be done about, some men have a natural urge to defend a woman if they see them become subject to insults. Is this sexist? yes, But I don't really see it as much of a problem, The real problem at hand, I think, is men who still treat women like lesser beings. Eventually that may not be a problem, then would be the time to tackle men treating women to protectively.

That's just my two cents.

 

[Sectan]

It's nature for men to want to protect the "weak fragile women" from harm. I catch myself doing it when my guildies start taking crap from people in raids. Not saying it's right, but I've done it.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I agree with every last thing stated by the OP so far.

Except....

We all know the shitty reality of a *small* but very vocal aspect of the online world and we all deal with it.

And this is based on....?

Right. Just try not to appear a hypocrite next time.

Though I have met many more of such scum on the internet myself, too many to call it a small minority, and this is on the escapist especially.

Could you explain what you mean by hypocrisy? I don't see it.

I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with.

While you certainly didn't deserve to be called such an offensive slur, or any name at all, because of your sexual orientation (I'm assuming you're a man, can't be sure) you really shouldn't be "flirting" on any level with a boyfriend/girlfriend over a public chat in game. It can be awkward for other people in the chat, similar to PDA in real social situations.

OT: I think you make some good points, though I don't think anything can really be done about, some men have a natural urge to defend a woman if they see them become subject to insults. Is this sexist? yes, But I don't really see it as much of a problem, The real problem at hand, I think, is men who still treat women like lesser beings. Eventually that may not be a problem, then would be the time to tackle men treating women to protectively.

That's just my two cents.

Don't worry, it wasn't anything close to gross, lol. It was basically "Oh you *****, you stole that kill form me." "You still love me." "Maaaaaybe." That might not be the exact words, but that's the idea.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

It's nature for men to want to protect the "weak fragile women" from harm. I catch myself doing it when my guildies start taking crap from people in raids. Not saying it's right, but I've done it.

You sexist pig!

I get what you mean. You probably haven't seen an earlier thread I was in (one I started) where I explained that I have this "urge" to comfort women in a lot of distress. It's a long story, but you get the idea.

That sort of thing is fine. I mean, what's the harm in helping people, yeah? The issue comes up when people only help women, not because it's nice, but because they're women. It's sexism, just not in the usual way.

 

[Ledan]

You can't actually prove that women are picked on by men more often than men insult one another, but you feel comfortable stating: "Because the harassment of women is much more common, more vicious, and part of a society with deeply rooted gender problems."

So you're spreading information you can't back up and are riding a stereotype along the sexism tracks?

No, I am speaking based on my own experiences.

Being called names sucks. I was bullied a lot, so I get it. The first few times you're called a name, it's no big deal. By the tenth it starts to wear on you and by the hundredth you've had enough. But this happens to everyone. I'm not saying women don't face sexism in the world (in some parts of the world, sexism is the standard). But sometimes it feels less about stopping assholes, and more about women being special.

I've got no doubt in my mind that you're in this debate because in your experience, you or a friend or someone you know has been treated poorly and in a sexist fashion. I very much doubt your part of some gyno conspiracy to take over the world and crush men. But the way some people talk about it, you'd think gender mattered more to them than the assholes they fight.

I want to be on the side fighting for everyone. I want everyone to be treated like a person, not a sex, gender, race, creed or social economic figure. I want a community and a world where no one even notices these things, where sex is as relevant to eye colour. You do too, I bet. But to me it often seems like more effort goes into talking about how bad women have it and how much help they need, than how to make everyone equal.

Am I making any sense?

Yes. There should be movies/games with characters who are not just white males, but that doesn't mean those characters need to be defined by their race/gender. Doesn't need to be a pot issue.
There is no patriarchy, there are just a lot of people who are assholes.
Ads are not just sexist against women, they are often equally sexist to men ( Man who tricks his wife to go drink a beer, and wife believes him, or some such. Sexist to both.... or classic: men cant work because a hot woman goes by)
Most gamers who are portrayed as sexist in mmos aren't. They are just horrible human beings who prey on anyone they can.
However, we aren't quite at an equal world yet. So make sure you get more women in movies and games, cause male whitewashing is getting kinda annoying. And stifling creativity.

 

[annoyinglizardvoice]

Okay I'm really tired after being awake for nearly twenty-four hours so I'm probably going to regret this, but...

Just because people getting treated badly on the internet or in a multiplayer setting or some such is considered usual, doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Whether the target is a man, a woman, someone who is straight, gay, bi, black, green or any color in between, means that EVERYONE should turn to the asshole and go "That's not right. Get your shit together or get out."

So the feminists are particularly sensitive to the issue of harrasment against women, doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't also talking about ALL harrasment. (Yes, some are only exclusively talking about women, but those are usually the nuts that take things to far and talk about the "Patriarchy" like it's a super villian in a movie.)

If someone wishes to rally against harrassment online and in game settings against women, GREAT!

If someone wishes to rally against harrasment online and in game settings against men, GREAT!

If someone wishes to rally against harrassment online and in game settings against people of color, GREAT!

If someone wishes to rally against harrassment online and in game settings against people of the LGBT community, GREAT!

And the more people who rally, means the bigger and bigger forces assholes have to go against whenever they're pissed they lost against someone.

You say that the owners of the game can ban the person, but that doesn't mean that the community should just "let the moderators handle it." It's the job of the community to work with the moderators and with each other to make sure everyone has an enjoyable gaming experience.

Now I'm off to bed.

I agree with this mentality.

I do also feel that there is some more justification for complaints about misogynistic comments due to the number of invalid teenage lads who tend to get in a strop just because there is a girl online who's a) just kicked their arse at whatever game they're on, or b) just turned them down when they assume that any girl they meet online must be bot into them and nearby. While said lads are usually dicks to other groups as well, they don't have quite the same level of motivation to be abusive to them.

 

[Icehearted]

@Clearing the Eye
I made no mention of traditional gender roles, but I do believe that men and women are not equal, and that neither side has one intrinsically superior position over another. I did say "There is a healthy give and take on both sides that many women I've known have admitted enjoying" and I believe this (as it has been my experience). It is also a personal preference. For example I don't prefer that the man always be the one to ask out women, I like being asked out by women. I like the way a woman looks in a dress, or with long pretty hair, or in my jacket when it's cold. If that makes me a sexist then the definition of sexism has been gravely distorted. That also doesn't mean that I think other people have to be this way, that's just how it's been for me and how I prefer it. I don't know anyone that has ever called a woman buying her own engagement ring and proposing marriage "traditional", but that's an experience I've had as well (and I declined, not that it's relevant).

If (for example) a M/F couple gets married and they want her to carry him across the threshold or take on her last name, more power to them; they're not me, it's not my life, I don't have any say and I don't care.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I agree with every last thing stated by the OP so far.

Except....

We all know the shitty reality of a *small* but very vocal aspect of the online world and we all deal with it.

And this is based on....?

Right. Just try not to appear a hypocrite next time.

Though I have met many more of such scum on the internet myself, too many to call it a small minority, and this is on the escapist especially.

Could you explain what you mean by hypocrisy? I don't see it.

You were bashing on thaluikhain for not being able to prove his/her statement with hard facts yet you also make a very similar statement in your main post.

Oh, fair enough. I just assumed it was evident that the portion of assholes was small, because we define bad people as those doing worse than the majority. Thus, it's impossible for "bad" to be anything more than a minority, else it wouldn't be bad. For example: if everyone beat cats and dogs to death, it wouldn't be bad--it would be normal.

Captcha: pipe dream

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I do believe that men and women are not equal, and that neither side has one intrinsically superior position over another.

I don't understand. You believe men and women aren't equal, but that no side is superior? If it's unequal, there must be a dominant side and a lesser side.

 

[Easton Dark]

You sexist pig!

I get what you mean. You probably haven't seen an earlier thread I was in (one I started) where I explained that I have this "urge" to comfort women in a lot of distress. It's a long story, but you get the idea.

That sort of thing is fine. I mean, what's the harm in helping people, yeah? The issue comes up when people only help women, not because it's nice, but because they're women. It's sexism, just not in the usual way.

Um, there's only one sexism. That's where you treat people differently based on gender. It can be offensive or helpful. Yours is helpful.

And yeah that sort of thing is fine as long as you would also comfort distressed men and not say "fuck you, I only help people with vaginas".

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You sexist pig!

I get what you mean. You probably haven't seen an earlier thread I was in (one I started) where I explained that I have this "urge" to comfort women in a lot of distress. It's a long story, but you get the idea.

That sort of thing is fine. I mean, what's the harm in helping people, yeah? The issue comes up when people only help women, not because it's nice, but because they're women. It's sexism, just not in the usual way.

Um, there's only one sexism. That's where you treat people differently based on gender. It can be offensive or helpful. Yours is helpful.

And yeah that sort of thing is fine as long as you would also comfort distressed men and not say "fuck you, I only help people with vaginas".

Mm. That's what I said: "It's sexism, just not in the usual way." Most people think sexism means treating a sex like crap, see. So I was just pointing out that sexism is simply treating a a sex differently to another.

Now that would be hilarious.

"Help me!"

-"Do you have a vagina?"

"What? No."

-"Welp, sorry then."

 

[lord.jeff]

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online.

I'm not gonna accept someone being an ass just because it's the internet, I expect minors in all form of communication. So if a person is a dick to a women, a homosexual, a child or anyone then rage on my friend.

 

[Nemesis729]

I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with.

While you certainly didn't deserve to be called such an offensive slur, or any name at all, because of your sexual orientation (I'm assuming you're a man, can't be sure) you really shouldn't be "flirting" on any level with a boyfriend/girlfriend over a public chat in game. It can be awkward for other people in the chat, similar to PDA in real social situations.

OT: I think you make some good points, though I don't think anything can really be done about, some men have a natural urge to defend a woman if they see them become subject to insults. Is this sexist? yes, But I don't really see it as much of a problem, The real problem at hand, I think, is men who still treat women like lesser beings. Eventually that may not be a problem, then would be the time to tackle men treating women to protectively.

That's just my two cents.

Don't worry, it wasn't anything close to gross, lol. It was basically "Oh you *****, you stole that kill form me." "You still love me." "Maaaaaybe." That might not be the exact words, but that's the idea.

I'm sure what you said wasn't vulgar, but it's still not something that had to be said over a public chat... I know I'm coming off as a prude but I know the last thing I want to hear while gaming is a reminder that I don't have a girlfriend (lol)

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online.

I'm not gonna accept someone being an ass just because it's the internet, I expect minors in all form of communication. So if a person is a dick to a women, a homosexual, a child or anyone then rage on my friend.

I think it's better to tell them once to be quite. If that fails, it's best to mute them and report their behavior to an admin or moderator. Raging at them usually just makes it worse and you can end up being more annoying than them.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with.

While you certainly didn't deserve to be called such an offensive slur, or any name at all, because of your sexual orientation (I'm assuming you're a man, can't be sure) you really shouldn't be "flirting" on any level with a boyfriend/girlfriend over a public chat in game. It can be awkward for other people in the chat, similar to PDA in real social situations.

OT: I think you make some good points, though I don't think anything can really be done about, some men have a natural urge to defend a woman if they see them become subject to insults. Is this sexist? yes, But I don't really see it as much of a problem, The real problem at hand, I think, is men who still treat women like lesser beings. Eventually that may not be a problem, then would be the time to tackle men treating women to protectively.

That's just my two cents.

Don't worry, it wasn't anything close to gross, lol. It was basically "Oh you *****, you stole that kill form me." "You still love me." "Maaaaaybe." That might not be the exact words, but that's the idea.

I'm sure what you said wasn't vulgar, but it's still not something that had to be said over a public chat... I know I'm coming off as a prude but I know the last thing I want to hear while gaming is a reminder that I don't have a girlfriend (lol)

Lolol. I feel you; I'm flying solo lately, too.

*lonely hug*

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Actually, chronologically some women are babies. Mainly the newborn ones.

As much as I jest, You have a great point, Buuut... If we took away the mornonic white knight threads, How would we get little chunks of dynamite like this:

Examples From "Women don't like assholes"

I am quite surprised by the lack of anus jokes in this thread.

Surprised and disappointed.

And this:

The summary:

Girls date guys for different reasons. Stop lumping us together like some horrible mass of tits, ass, mysteries and judgement. Seriously, that seems more unattractive than not being confident.

If we remove These threads, when else will there be oppurtunities for such mass hilarity?