Women gaming problems, solution discussion 1

[broca]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

 

[CloudAtlas]

So it is in your best interest to realise that there is an important difference between preaching to the already converted, and presenting your case to people who think differently from yourselves in a manner where everyone stands to gain something.

Thanks, but I prefer to "preach" to the undecided and unaware than to those who I won't be reaching anyway no matter what I say. People like you, judging by your language.

The argument (by someone somewhere in the hundreds of threats on the topic) was that they wanted stories that have a genuine female perspective, not just a gender neutral one and therefore saw flexible genders as a distraction from that goal (that's at least how i remember it).

Fair enough, although I don't see why one would have to happen at the expense of the other. To be honest, I think few games have such a tightly woven narrative that they really need a fixed gender protagonist. Now I'm not a woman and making statements about what a female perspective might look like are out of my comfort zone, but I think a gender neutral perspective is perfectly fine for many games. If your protagonist is a soldier or warrior of some sort, he/she is first and foremost that, not a man or a woman, and a woman shouldn't behave fundamentally different from their male counterparts. In such gmaes it seems sufficient if only a small portion of the game is specific to the gender. You know, like in Mass Effect.

 

[CloudAtlas]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

 

[runic knight]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

Actually, I think the thread has just been following threads of thought in a way to show how things relate in the complex interconnected web and in some points the cycles that perpetuate the problem. Like how portrayal of women is both a result of marketing towards traits that are more resonant with males in general ignoring of female players, as well as lack of females in the games making industry itself leading to less perspective from them. Also lack of creativity and an industry that thinks so little of its audience. So all this leads to fewer female players, which is less demand for variety, which just fuels this behavior.

However, it is good to try to keep it on track with solutions, you have a point there. I have been trying to limit solutions to solely what we as members of the community are capable ourselves, given that the industry itself is near impossible to change by complaint alone. That was why I suggested starting with some sort of newcomer friendly resource list of cheap, and even free, games that can be played on general pc (people more likely to play the games when they don't have to buy a console or gaming pc in order to do so). I also suggested using a common application like steam because of the social connectivity built right in as well as the ability to moderate the group created within, therefore helping foster a more welcoming entryway into the hobby and to cut out as many of the factors that deter new games of either gender from starting up (that being, an inclusive, vitriolic community, a high price of admission, an unsurity of quality and so forth).

Would love to hear other people's ideas in that regard, or towards other ideas we can do ourselves to address these problems. After all, it will not come from top down very likely.

 

[runic knight]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Umm... what? I could have sworn that by delving into the why the community is like it is and why the trends are like they are and explaining how addressing those aspects improves things for not just the new comers but for everyone in general was attempting to make a case about in a way of self interest. Hell, I spent a while deconstructing the ideas of blaming others or attempting to censor ideas. I had a warning to that the thread itself wasn't about that and even reiterated that later on in the first post with things like "As such, ideas such as "no more sexualization" I want to avoid as possible solutions".

I... I can't fathom how what you posted here relates well to the actual topic and instead seems nothing more then your preconception of the topic by thread name alone, or possibly, just a few posts done here. I made this thread as a way to address what I saw as a problem in gaming that affected the entirety of the community. Now you come in and say the solution is to grow a thicker skin, ignoring everything from how variety itself is a good thing or that the current trend in gaming is bad, both for the industry (can lead to something akin the 90's era comic book crash because of condensing appeal to only a certain demographic eventually starts to bottom out as they drive off what would be new participants) as well as the gamers (because we do so love when the industry tries to "broaden the appeal" and writes off entire swaths of gaming in order to push out the same shit year after year, right).

I tried to explain stuff exactly as you say we should, in that of a way that appeals to self interest. I went at it from how it affects community, to how it affects the industry, to how it affects games made. What the hell else is needed to appeal to self interest beyond that, especially when the near entirety of the time I am also stressing that negative pressures or censorship is not the way to go?

I avoid every sort of moral grandstanding I could and explained it as simple as I could in a way that applies to personal investment. The current trend in gaming, highlighted by how women participate, is bad for everyone in the end. It excludes new players, decreases variety in demand and allows the industry to continue to view its audience as tools that are easy to pander to. This leads to fewer, less creative games as the industry fights itself for the golden chalice that is the 18-35 male demographic, but do so in a way that continues aspects of gaming everyone hates, such as copying the front runners and writing off entire genres. Fixing that is good because everything I already mentioned in my posts here, and already explained how addressing the issue can lead to improvements there.

 

[broca]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

While i give you that suggestions were made, they were mostly general but not practical ones. For example making the community more welcoming would be a solution, but that's no real helpful as it doesn't solves the problem of how to achieve this solution.

I took a quick look through the thread so far and have counted about half a dozen such posts. Even if you take into account the posts in response, that's (imo) really good for a threat with more than a hundred posts. Just look at the newest Sarkeesian thread to see what a bogged down thread really looks like.

 

[viranimus]

I find perhaps the most interesting part of all this constant talk about this issue recently focuses on this issue or that point really never really coming close to even understanding what the problem actually even is. Sadly much of this "discussion" in these countless threads boil down to mostly guys discussing differing points and perspectives of one aspect of the issue that they really do not understand has absolutely no connection to what causes the issue in the first place.

It is sort of like watching a husband spend obscene money on home security reinforcing all the doors and windows in the house because of a home invasion where his wife is raped yet is completely oblivious to the fact that the "rapist" got in because wifee LET him in and it was not rape at all as she was intentionally cheating on her husband and she never once tried to portray the affair as anything other than an affair.

 

[broca]

As interesting as the discussions are, i feel there still isn't much talk about practical solutions. While the general problems have been identified (like a unwelcoming community and the state of the gaming industry), what's missing are ways to actually solve the problems (or at least make them less bad).

Suggestions were proposed, but, as always, the thread got bogged down because some people felt the need to let everyone know that they don't care, that they think it's a non-issue, and even if it was, the solution is to just deal with it.

Actually, I think the thread has just been following threads of thought in a way to show how things relate in the complex interconnected web and in some points the cycles that perpetuate the problem. Like how portrayal of women is both a result of marketing towards traits that are more resonant with males in general ignoring of female players, as well as lack of females in the games making industry itself leading to less perspective from them. Also lack of creativity and an industry that thinks so little of its audience. So all this leads to fewer female players, which is less demand for variety, which just fuels this behavior.

However, it is good to try to keep it on track with solutions, you have a point there. I have been trying to limit solutions to solely what we as members of the community are capable ourselves, given that the industry itself is near impossible to change by complaint alone. That was why I suggested starting with some sort of newcomer friendly resource list of cheap, and even free, games that can be played on general pc (people more likely to play the games when they don't have to buy a console or gaming pc in order to do so). I also suggested using a common application like steam because of the social connectivity built right in as well as the ability to moderate the group created within, therefore helping foster a more welcoming entryway into the hobby and to cut out as many of the factors that deter new games of either gender from starting up (that being, an inclusive, vitriolic community, a high price of admission, an unsurity of quality and so forth).

Would love to hear other people's ideas in that regard, or towards other ideas we can do ourselves to address these problems. After all, it will not come from top down very likely.

Yeah, there are certainly possibilities for introducing more players to core games by making access easier, but i feel like that kind of misses the point, as the main problems (imo) are harassment, stereotypes and female representation in games. What does it help when you get females to start gaming and then they quit shortly afterwards because of the other unresolved issues?

The way i see it, there isn't much the individual gamer can do. Of course, there's small stuff like telling people on a server you're playing on not treat female players like shit, but frankly, the offenders probably wouldn't even care. But by and large, small actions by individuals don't do enough much to solve the overall issues (assuming they even can be "solved") and make gaming more inclusive. For change to happen (aside from the stuff that already happens on it own) you would need to either influence the gaming industry (requiring someone who has influence and cares enough) and/or gamers (requiring a lot of dedicated and capable people working together). So unless some major company (like EA or Valve) somehow decided to dedicate major resources to make games more inclusive or someone managed to start a major movement in the gaming community, change will happen on it's own and therefore slow.

 

[briankoontz]

Build the games, and they will come. The Sims proves that, Angry Birds proves it, Bejeweled proves it, but the industry in general doesn't want to come to terms with it's own identity. It doesn't want to deal with reality so it buries it's head in the sand, cries out "we just want to have fun!" and hopes for the best.

"Build the games, and they will come"
Going by that logic the games already have been built, you listed a few of them right there. I can Google like a thousand other games that resemble simplistic puzzle/platformers/etc like Bejewlled or Angry Birds, there are entire websites filled with thousands of flash games and hundreds of small android/iPhone games floating around that simulate world-building (like Sims) or the sort. There is no lack of those games. At all.

So if we're happy with females primarily being interested in those sorts of games, then we should be totally fine with the current state of things. They are being appealed/catered to.

A bunch of low-budget no-innovation knockoff games don't appeal to anyone but fledgling game designers and crass capitalists, and to state that this is an acceptable situation for women is ridiculous at best, insulting at worst.

I agree with you that right now, the casual games market is much more appealing to women than the mainstream market. The high and even medium-budget games industry is seemingly unaware of the existence of half the world's population.

Because casual games are better designed for women and women disproportionately play them, it's created the impression that women are merely "casual" gamers and there's no point in the higher-budget industry paying attention to them.

A serious problem is that game developers don't understand the nature of what they are creating, and seemingly don't want to know. They are excellent at cloning and making small incremental design changes, terrible at innovation as well as deep understanding.

Indie developers who are innovating tend to focus on themselves, such as the creators of Braid and Fez, which is undoubtedly fulfilling artistically for themselves but doesn't help women out specifically.

Bejeweled appeals to women, but bejeweled is merely a drug and a toy. The Sims series are great games and shows the results of what happens when a game is designed which appeals to women.

But this was really just an accident. The Sims is part of Will Wright's obsession with simulating basic reality.

What would happen if game developers specifically designed games for women? Not in the insulting sense, like another Bejeweled clone, but seriously wanted to benefit women through the medium of video games?

 

[3AM]

I hadn't thought about the cost aspect, but that is a really good point. Games are pretty expensive, be it the games themselves, the consoles or even just a pc that can handle the high end ones.

Maybe we can address this and give the indie scene a bit of a boost in the same go? Maybe make a list of good, cheap and fun games that the average pc could handle without issue and sort of make it a gamer-intro pack or something? Even just through something like steam to help with the social aspects (and because good sales), have a list of good, inexpensive games.
I go pc, as that seems more likely then someone going to buy a console itself. Then again with the rise of smart phones and the blurring of that tech, we might start having more overlap between them then before. Would probably help to take advantage of that sort of thing.

I think because of the nature of gaming in general, there will always be a community. Movies and music have communities as well, even if only though their sub-genre (since the overall community is indistinguishable from the entirety of society itself). So I think the sports community root would be the best way to follow for example, if only in terms of acceptance.

Multiplayer community is a mixed bag. on one side, it is some of the best fun you can get in games just playign with other people. On the other, any sort of lack of moderation leads to the worst sort taking over. Maybe take that steam list idea from above and make a group for people to find other newbies to play with as well as players who want to welcome new gamers?

That's one of the reason women love facebook games they're cheap and run on any machine, and that gets them branded casuals with spite. Don't expect everyone to start off hardcore and don't get mad if they don't want to pursue games further. I got my mom to play 999 and Phoenix Wright by starting with sudoku.

But I guess that goes back to a more accepting community.

These statements truly confound me - cost? Cost is the reason females don't play games? Do females not work where you live?

OP: People play games they like, whether it's because the game is fun, or scary, or pretty or challenging or it's what they're in the mood for at the time. An industry or a community doesn't have to change because I don't like one of the products. As long as there's variety in games made I'll find (and buy) the ones I like and play them (on the computer I bought).

 

[carnex]

I have read the first post, but I cant really read whole thing since I do this during pauses from preparing for exams. Anyway, these are my opinions unless I state otherwise. If you lash at me, I may answer, may not, but if you calmly present counterview and support it, most probably I will continue discussion.

Anyway. I see this problem like one Hollywood had in thirties and rock'n'roll had in fifties/sixties. Combination of unproven and unaccepted medium and sudden inclusion of vast masses. As always, many among those who weren?t exposed gradually will do their best to oppose. Perfect example of that is extreme language competitive multiplayer communities developed in their isolation. "I'm gonna rape you, *****" followed by "yea right, more likely you are going to suck it dry" has meaning in gaming world that has nothing to do with its meaning in outside world. So when someone, gender notwithstanding, who isn't adapted over time to that particular dialect hears those he will be outraged. And reasonably so. You can't simply reprogram your brain, especially when such terrible things, like rape, are involved. This is one of those things that don't have "nice" solution. Movie industry, led by Hollywood in that idea, responded by massive censorship, idea I would go almost any length to avoid. Rock'n'Roll reacted by fragmentation. Most actually softened the words, but most problematic ones, those who were cause or ruckus in the first place simply carried on or even turned noise, references, messages and profanities to 11. I wouldn't like to split either, but I still massively prefer it to censorship.

Now gamers are different sort of problem. One you can look at, say "fuck it, its people. They will do whatever they want to do" . Other approach is to try to fight it. Nicely at first, then more and more harshly as frustration due to utter lack of effect you are having until you say "fuck it, its people. They will do whatever they want to do". So, yea, not gonna happen until whole climate changes.

Now as females in games. I will try to make several points and draw target across my chest. Anything you throw at me will actually improve my reasoning one way or another. So...

- Women, women up, own your sexuality. if you own it no one can take it from you and if someone can take it from you, you didn't own it in the first place. You relied on something or someone to reinforce it for you. Your gender fought long and hard for it, it's time to own it. That said, you can't own male sexuality, it's for men. Female and male preferences are different and you have to accept it. Half naked girl as player character is not you. It's sprite or collection of polygons. It shouldn?t affect you in any way, just like male characters in any role, situation and position shouldn't affect men.

- We need more female and better characters. We need better males to, and even that would help with attracting female gamers, but those are of less priority for now. We shouldn?t create female terminators and try to present them as vulnerable but strong resourceful, like they did with now Lara Croft. We shouldn?t create nearly emotionless and dead serious female warrior and then give her deepest "boob slit" (decolletage simply does not describe it) in history of spandexes like Samara from Mass Effect. We need more of Kate Archer, Alyx Vance, Jade and Giana Sisters.

- Girls and women, you have to spend money on games with traits you want. Also send mails and, even better, written letters to publishers and describe games you like. Don't make some uber fantasy. Write "I liked that and that game because of that and that. And also, in that game, that and that bothered me.? But don't go overboard, if your fictional product seems unpalatable to men, it's going straight to bin 100% sure. Men still spend several times greater amount of money in the medium. Until graphs show you spend equal amount of money you have no chance in hell to be taken as seriously as male demographics.

- Roll with the blows. This is probably the hardest one. You know all those guys who hold to themselves and never seem to really interact with people. Who quietly exist and everyone else either ignores them or simply doesn?t even notice them. Well, then you go to any gaming community spot, they are the loudest. Not majority, just loudest. And no one can do anything about that, sorry. So, you have to roll with the blows. Maybe over time things improve as new routine sinks in, but I wouldn?t dare predicting how social dynamic is going to pan out.

- If you like genre where vast majority of players is of the opposite gender, you are going to have to accept that publisher and developers are not going to do anything more then throw you occasional bone. You noticed how "match 3" genre got larger fields and cuter, shinier object in those fields? It's because female gamers are dominant player base in that genre.

That's it for no, back to Economy.

 

[Yuuki]

A bunch of low-budget no-innovation knockoff games don't appeal to anyone but fledgling game designers and crass capitalists, and to state that this is an acceptable situation for women is ridiculous at best, insulting at worst.

Low-budget, yes. No-innovation, are you serious? Most of the innovation is happening in the low-budget gaming department. Yes you will most likely find 10 games that have similar mechanics, but that's purely due to the sheer number of those games out there. Nothing comes close to the sheer VARIETY found in iPhone, Android, Flash and Java games. Nothing.

I agree with you that right now, the casual games market is much more appealing to women than the mainstream market. The high and even medium-budget games industry is seemingly unaware of the existence of half the world's population.

They're perfectly aware. The "myth" of multi-million-dollar industries being unaware of the existence of women was debunked a while ago. Actually I don't know how even such a notion developed, it's so absurd.

Because casual games are better designed for women

That doesn't really make any sense. None of these games were designed specifically for women in mind, there is nothing feminine about them unless you count being colorful/cartoonish being a feminine thing (and they are only like that due to low budgets, to make games look "nice" without having to invest in top-tier graphics engines).

and women disproportionately play them

I haven't seen any evidence to women disproportionately playing them. Even the slightest number of women doing anything is considered a huge deal. I would be willing to bet roughly 50% of the people playing casual games are male, because even amongst males there are tons of people who just aren't interested in mainstream gaming and want to stick to light games that are free, easy to learn, don't have any steep hardware requirements, etc.

The Sims series are great games and shows the results of what happens when a game is designed which appeals to women.

But this was really just an accident. The Sims is part of Will Wright's obsession with simulating basic reality.

First you state that Sims was designed to appeal to women, and then you state that it was just an accident?

What would happen if game developers specifically designed games for women? Not in the insulting sense, like another Bejeweled clone, but seriously wanted to benefit women through the medium of video games?

The fact that you think that it's "insulting" that women are mostly casual gamers is in-itself insulting to both women and the industry as a whole. The industry is very good at providing people for what they ask for, market demand can spur the creation of literally anything.
Tell me, exactly WHAT would a game "specifically aimed at women" resemble? What would it even have? Please do tell.

Also I have no clue what you mean by "benefit women through the medium of video games". Please clarify? Benefit women how, and why?

 

[A Weakgeek]

Really I can't see this whole situation going more than one way and one way only.

Group A bitches about issue X, Group B bitches about issue Y and so on.

Game dev will look into these issues, and judge wether or not pandering to the people complaining will cause profit.

If profit is assumed, game dev will handle chosen issue according to their own judgement.

Thus, I dont really see the point in trying to come up with solutions on so polarizing issues, since 99% of people (Including the people in the industry) are so damn opinionated theres literally no chance of anyone listening except for the people who already agree with you.

 

[CloudAtlas]

While i give you that suggestions were made, they were mostly general but not practical ones. For example making the community more welcoming would be a solution, but that's no real helpful as it doesn't solves the problem of how to achieve this solution.

Well, you can't change the community as a whole, but you can start with yourself, influence your friends, and speak out when people abuse others in a game. I know doing the latter means feeding the trolls, but it can mean a lot to the person on the receiving end to know that someone's with her/him.
I'm trying to work on all three things, but I don't always live up to my own standards.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Thus, I dont really see the point in trying to come up with solutions on so polarizing issues, since 99% of people (Including the people in the industry) are so damn opinionated theres literally no chance of anyone listening except for the people who already agree with you.

It's only a minority who is "so damn opinionated", one way or the other. And the people in the industry are certainly listening. They might not heed the wishes and demands, but they do listen. And since they're not nearly as immature as their audience, they are able to handle critique as well.
This I strongly believe.

 

[blazearmoru]

I think that in a few generations, white knights will start making games for girls which will also appeal to bronies. Also there are already some girl gamers and maybe a few will start developing games.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Thus, I dont really see the point in trying to come up with solutions on so polarizing issues, since 99% of people (Including the people in the industry) are so damn opinionated theres literally no chance of anyone listening except for the people who already agree with you.

It's only a minority who is "so damn opinionated", one way or the other.

If you take the general populous into account, maybe. But the people who actually have power over these affairs, writers, people who study demographics/psychologists etc. are opinionated. They picked a side a long time ago, unless ofcourse, they are complete newcomers to the industry. Which for AAA games is ofcourse almost never.

 

[oreso]

There's been some great arguments here, and I do thank runic knight for focusing on solutions.

To outline my stance for those interested:

Spoiler

I would say that "getting more women into gaming" or any kind of quota is just social engineering, and not a legitimate goal. People are free to choose, and should remain able to do so.

Diversity in games is good in itself, and appears to be happening anyway. There are certainly some traditionalists in the industry, but they appear to be widely mocked and lambasted.

A certain -lack- of diversity in characters is also to be expected however. We live in a gendered society, and any game that reflects society may well reflect that genderness. There are plenty of good reasons for not being genderblind (not least of which is if you want to explore gender issues themselves, or you wish to appeal to people's sexual preferences).

I will say that the extreme scrutiny female characters are placed under can be toxic and self-defeating. Being hyper-critical is not a way to encourage developers to experiment.

I'm skeptical of any link between the portrayal of women or men in the media and any big effect on behaviour in real life. Mario may be symptomatic of sexist attitudes, but Mario didn't cause or perpetuate those attitudes in any significant way.

I think that in a few generations, white knights will start making games for girls which will also appeal to bronies. Also there are already some girl gamers and maybe a few will start developing games.

This got me thinking.

MLP is unabashedly targeted to girls, and guys loved it. They didn't want to change it or make it more inclusive with male characters, or promoting male values or whatever. They were certainly mocked and abused en masse. But they didn't need any help; they just formed communities and got on with loving the show and making things. If folks had thought that bronies required special protection, consideration or support or they wouldn't have enjoyed the show, then I think that would've just been condescending and counter-productive.

I understand that "gaming" is a whole medium, far broader than a single show, but if women are feeling underserved and attacked, a similar positive attitude might help. Play the games you want and ask for more of them, or make them. Form communities if you feel safer there (I know many exist already of course). But if folks think women need special consideration, protection or support then that does seem a bit condescending and counter-productive too.

Cheers!