World Bank Examines Benefits of Gold Farming

[CommanderKirov]

Was that for the time between 2008-2009 or was it since introduction of Goldfarming up to the year 2009

 

[Joshimodo]

China is still a first world country. Maybe second. Can you imagine what a similar situation would be in a third world country?

Overall, China is a first world country. However, it's got plenty of poverty to go around. Most first world countries aren't Communist, and the citizens generally feel entitled to (and are backed by laws) a certain minimum wage, no matter what the job.

Similar situations in third world countries don't particularly exist. This isn't equal to blood diamonds, drug running or slavery. Frankly, it's quite warped to even assume that.

Korea and Starcraft?

Last I heard, Starcraft isn't an MMO (yet). There's also no microtransactions.

Put it another way, if gold farming is a valid economy; what are SOE, Blizzard, Cryptic doing by banning gold-farmers?

Because if a player can pay someone ELSE to get vast sums of money, they end up spending less time grinding or farming, thus reducing possible income to them. Additionally, most mainstream MMOs like to keep some kind of player balance on the monetary side - Otherwise people with more disposable income can get a direct advantage over others. They still do, in one form or another, but as it stands buying gold bypasses the main factor in in-game riches - Time.

 

[CosmicCommander]

Are you suggesting that being forced to sit in cramped conditions doing repetitive tasks for very low pay, for a high end product, is not slavery?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/mar/05/virtual-world-china?intcmp=239

30p an hour sound like fun? And this is in a developed country.

Bolded at mistake. China is a huge economy, however it's GDP per capita that really matters when looking at the average man. And compared to the US, where GDP per capita is $47,400, the average Chinese person makes $7,400 a year[footnote]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html[/footnote]. That's far from developed; and this leads on to my point.

You make the fatal mistake of looking at that money as one would in the West- where pay is generous, and working conditions are generally favourable. In China, not so much. Milton Friedman once pointed out something extremely useful; although to the people in a fully developed country would scream at the conditions these people are under, for them, they are having a far better opportunity than they could hope to have under many other conditions. When your choice is between grinding poverty via unemployment, or work that is better than said poverty, which would you go for? And you forget- prices are lower in China for products we normally enjoy in the West. Frugal innovation is brilliant in places like China and India.

In the end, to the Chinese, who never have been able to experience the favourable conditions us Westerners have, the conditions they have in places like Gold Farming rooms are a godsend.

EDIT: And comparing this practice to Slavery, Organ Legging and Blood Diamonds is just... Demeaning to the severity of those trades. Everyone in this industry is able to grant consent over their actions- the workers can choose to work their, the clients are paying them accordingly, and the conditions help alleviate people out of poverty.

OT: I knew the gaming services sector was huge... But... Wow. This really is a brilliant thing for developing economies, and economic growth.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Similar situations in third world countries don't particularly exist. This isn't equal to blood diamonds, drug running or slavery. Frankly, it's quite warped to even assume that.

Got to love that backhand. And the additional ideas that I hadn't put in.

You still haven't answered the questions though, just gone off into rhetoric. Let's spell it out:

Should we, as a developed nation, be recommending that the way forward for developing countries is to do things we find distasteful in order to prop their criminal organisations up? And we reserve the right to ban them at any time for any offence.

As a secondary point, which you've also ignored,
Should we be asking the developers of games to create situations where these gold farmers can work for our benefit within our games?

And as a tertiary point
Should we be expending valuable GNP on exporting virtual goods built in America from other countries?

And comparing this practice to Slavery, Organ Legging and Blood Diamonds is just... Demeaning to the severity of those trades.

While you're off on the rhetoric about how Slavery etc. harm people, you might not have seen it was a comparison made under ways how developing nations can earn money off the back of it's poorest workers.

So thanks for telling me all that I've forgotten. Appreciate it.

Perhaps you might be able to answer the questions above? If not, I'll just leave it. Let you get back to your games.

 

[samaugsch]

Yet gold is still as useless as ever in Minecraft. sigh...

Except for turning apples into golden apples, and even then, you need like 72 ingots for each one.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Also, it's hard to compare this to organ trade or blood diamonds since nobody is actually harmed by gold farming...

Expect the people who's accounts are hacked and stolen. In order to keep the constant supply of easy gold without having to spend man hours on grinding.

Or did you refer only to "hurt physically"?
Because I think hurt mentally should count also. It is not fun to lose something that you have spent years working on. Or is it OK to hurt mentally those fat pathetic nerds, so rich kids could spoil them selfs?

Edit:

I think I'd be willing to put up with gold farmers and the spoiled brats who buy from them if it provides a valid source of work and income for people in third world countries.

So if Blizzard find a way to erase the issue of account hacking and gold selling in WoW for final. It is a bad move from their part and you would rally against that? - Fight against their right to change their product as they see fit.

Long as the industry breaks the services ToS/EULA they are using. They are criminals and should be erased. (If Blizz decides to make cold selling legal and allowed, then I am ok with it, but I will stop playing wow then.)
Longs as the constant hacking and gold scamming plaque is used to finance this industry, it is criminal. Or is it OK to steal from the rich for the poor who can then sell the stolen goods to someone else? <- To discriminate people depending on their quality of life and their income.

This thing doesn't sound fair to me, but what I am. Just a capitalistic asshole....

 

[Ickorus]

I remember watching a documentary about gold farmers and the conditions those people live and work in are terrible and they're paid a pittance for their work whilst most of the money goes to the boss who is basically a slaver.

 

[CosmicCommander]

Perhaps you might be able to answer the questions above? If not, I'll just leave it. Let you get back to your games.

Should we, as a developed nation, be recommending that the way forward for developing countries is to do things we find distasteful in order to prop their criminal organisations up? And we reserve the right to ban them at any time for any offence.

I think that this sort of business is up to the company who provides the software of which they're effectively making money off of's choice. If Blizzard doesn't wish their property to be used like this, then they have every right to crack down on this.

And I'd argue at the point this money may be going to solely to criminal organizations. Although, like EVERY other industry, criminals will grab a stake in it, I'd imagine these sorts of industries being populated by two types of people:

-Individuals wanting cash.
-Small collectives of people that function as a regular business.

In the end, the criminals wouldn't see much of a point in trying to grab a stake in this industry- it'd be too tedius, and wouldn't return the revenue products like drugs, alcohol, and sex would. If they did, it'd be a MARGINAL revenue stream.

Should we be asking the developers of games to create situations where these gold farmers can work for our benefit within our games?

It's entirely up to the dev. They have the right to see how their products are used. However, they should consider the benefits to their business by doing such a move.

Should we be expending valuable GNP on exporting virtual goods built in America from other countries?

I don't think the average person will be thinking about how much they're draining the national money pool when they do this sort of thing. They want more gold- they pay for it. We live in a globalised economy anyway, that money will most likely flow back through the West at some point anyway. As a result, I think the concept of a solely national economy (and with it, GNP) is starting to become redundant.

And these virtual goods are really produced with marginal effort by the devs. No problemo, I think.

 

[Joshimodo]

Should we, as a developed nation, be recommending that the way forward for developing countries is to do things we find distasteful in order to prop their criminal organisations up? And we reserve the right to ban them at any time for any offence.

Distasteful? That's a can of worms. You'd do better to specify, since distasteful is wide-ranging. Also, criminal organisations? Granted, some are involved, but it's a vast minority. Most operations are akin to small businesses. They're violating rules, sure - But chances are buying 100k isn't going to go into some Triad kingpin's bankroll.

As for your question, the USA did things that were considered distasteful to the natives (mining gold, digging for oil etc.), and the UK held a rather ruthless monopoly on trade for a long time before that. As gold farming isn't harmful, and as long as it remains that way, we should encourage it to some degree. It's far from perfect right now, but it's a means for impoverished people to hold a job that requires virtually no training or education. As for banning, yeah - That's fine. If what they are doing violates the TOS, ban away. It's not like that stops them, anyway.

As a secondary point, which you've also ignored,
Should we be asking the developers of games to create situations where these gold farmers can work for our benefit within our games?

No, but developers should be seeing it as an opening, rather than just steamrolling it. For example, they could make it a legitimised business - Sell "corporate" business accounts (for an increased price) designed for gold farming, then take a percentage. Extra income and a legitimised, safer method for an occurrence which WILL happen anyway. As long as it's not botting/cheating/hacking etc., and all non-business accounts are banned for selling the gold, the theory could work. Something along those lines, anyway.

While a system where you buy directly from the game's developers would be more profitable for them, it would also cause problems in the digital economy and imbalance it further.

And as a tertiary point
Should we be expending valuable GNP on exporting virtual goods built in America from other countries?

People already are. It's not a question of should, it's a question of what benefits could it reap, or how it should be handled beyond just banning them?

 

[irani_che]

A World Bank report says gold farming, power-leveling and other such services generated roughly $3 billion for poor nations in 2009 and could actually prove to be very beneficial to local and developing economies.

So's Slavery, Organ Legging and Blood Diamonds.

For very similar reasons.

oh you took the words out of my mouth

i was curious, how do the poor people who gold-farm for you suffer? its a way easier and safer job than working in a factory or in a real farm. and they get all the money you send

 

[hudsonzero]

A World Bank report says gold farming, power-leveling and other such services generated roughly $3 billion for poor nations in 2009 and could actually prove to be very beneficial to local and developing economies.

So's Slavery, Organ Legging and Blood Diamonds.

For very similar reasons.

oh you took the words out of my mouth

i was curious, how do the poor people who gold-farm for you suffer? its a way easier and safer job than working in a factory or in a real farm. and they get all the money you send

Well for one thing most of the gold isn't farmed its stolen, and yes it is safer but factory work and farming could, i don't know,produce a product and improve the overall quality of life for the people.

 

[Sieg The Bum]

And FYI, China is still developing. Its developed areas only make up about like 25%+ of the entire country. I can show you plenty of really nice developed areas of Pakistan...

Thank you for saving me some time. That was the exact point I was going to make.

If anyone would care to look are the GDP, energy use, energy efficiency, and population growth you could tell that it acts very very much like a developing country. Now, it is on the fast track to being developed in the near future but right now it's just the largest developing country.

OT:
While the job would suck. It's better then starving.

 

[irani_che]

stealin, is wrong,
farming is not.

improve the quality of their life? its called a cash crop. The money they gain from goldfarming is greater than the value of anything they could produce for themselves.

ie.
spend a week farming corn, get enough food for family (18 dollars)

spend a week farming gold online, make 30 dollars, can buy food.

its still cheating, on account of the WoW users and they should be punished as the other WoW users actually mine themsleves feel cheated
but for the people who mined it its a great job

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Answers

Answers

For a start, I'd like to thank you for going into this and not dropping to insults. That's actually very appreciated.

Now, there's far too much text for me to address points in turn, but I'll pick up on themes.

If Blizzard doesn't wish their property to be used like this, then they have every right to crack down on this.

But the World Bank are saying this is the way to prop up countries. Wouldn't that mean that Blizzard are denying people jobs? (Not just Blizzard obviously, they have a more direct approach)

Something you may want to watch: http://chinesegoldfarmers.com/Trailer.html

A lot of what people are saying is that "This is good money for China". And it probably is. I've a few friends who worked in China and they say that, for the money, farmers do make a better living off "farming" than they could elsewhere.

And that's the problem. China's time is less valuable than American/English/Australian. According to Edward Castranova [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/technology/09gaming.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&ei=5094&en=d5d225932e8ebecb&hp&ex=1134190800&partner=homepage]:

"They're exploiting the wage difference between the U.S. and China for unskilled labor," says Edward Castronova, a professor of telecommunications at Indiana University and the author of "Synthetic Worlds," a study of the economy of online games. "The cost of someone's time is much bigger in America than in China."

It's not that this is a bad way to earn money - as long as you don't count working 12 hour days in cramped conditions without a break surrounded by the cheapest set-ups they can afford - it's that it's not a basis for creating wealth.

Let's say WoW has a day long blackout. By current estimates, you've just denied 100,000 people a day's pay. Equally, from the article, they believe 40/50% of players are farmers; and from the GM's I've talked to, they spend a LOT of their time banning farmers.

(Which is even nicer when you think that GM just might have let a Chinese person starve for a day)

It's entirely up to the dev. They have the right to see how their products are used. However, they should consider the benefits to their business by doing such a move.

Is that really what we want? Will DCUO, City Of Heroes fail because they don't have a really valuable in-game currency? Given how much people have raged against Gamestop and second hand sales, how are we now defending a very similar economic situation - except this time it's going to the poor for work?

Equally, how can anything beat WoW when it has players there solely to equip other players, because they don't get to eat otherwise?

If you don't think this is already happening, look at Zynga...

I don't think the average person will be thinking about how much they're draining the national money pool when they do this sort of thing.

No, I don't either. But at a time when we're spiralling into debt, perhaps sending money out of the country to purchase items made in this country for free is not a great idea?

Distasteful? That's a can of worms. You'd do better to specify, since distasteful is wide-ranging.

I chose it to be wide-ranging. If you're paying someone to do something you don't want to do, what is it you're doing?

Granted, some are involved, but it's a vast minority.

Any sources on that? I can put quite an easy bet that illegally obtained money is going to be going towards criminals.

But let's look at the criminals inside the game: Economics. How much will that Axe of Cleaving cost you if 40% of your game is farming them? Very little?

How about a huge deal? You can't get it elsewhere...you're going to have to buy from them. With gold for there farming. Gold Farmers rarely go for gold if there's phat lewt to be had.

Also found this nice diagram

As for your question, the USA did things that were considered distasteful to the natives (mining gold, digging for oil etc.), and the UK held a rather ruthless monopoly on trade for a long time before that.

Politicians rhetoric. We've all got skeletons in our cupboards. China has quite a few. Especially in Tiananmen Square.

No, but developers should be seeing it as an opening, rather than just steamrolling it. For example, they could make it a legitimised business - Sell "corporate" business accounts (for an increased price) designed for gold farming, then take a percentage. Extra income and a legitimised, safer method for an occurrence which WILL happen anyway. As long as it's not botting/cheating/hacking etc., and all non-business accounts are banned for selling the gold, the theory could work. Something along those lines, anyway.

Oh, it's an opening all right. If Blizzard sell 100 of these "corporate" accounts to China, what would be the best thing for Blizzard to do in the next patch? Lower the drop rate by a 1%? Increase the drop rate for a "corporate" client? Sell the "corporate" client to Guilds?

That's not a can of worms, that's a can of Cthulu.

It's not a question of should, it's a question of what benefits could it reap, or how it should be handled beyond just banning them?

Ok, let's try an analogy. Consider that the Escapist badges have become valuable (more than they are already, of course), and that ones like "Inferno", "Thanked" etc. are worth quite a bit.

And you know someone unemployed with time on their hands, who's willing to work for, say (Using the Big Mac Index : China is 56% poorer than us) £1 an hour. They probably scrimp off the dole as well.

What effect would that have, not just on the Escapist; but on the forum members, the Mods, and on your friend?

Would you like to put that forward to the DHS (Or the US equivalent) as a viable form of alternate work?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I think at this point, because I've wrote enough about this to afford my own farmer, I'll leave it. If you agree, good. If you don't, fair enough.

I just think it's a very bad idea.

 

[ionveau]

I hope you know most of this virtual money comes from hackers not people working, The hackers leave the computers on all day and check up if they are working time to time, for every 20 computers hacking maybe they would get one person to make sure they're not glitching or W/E

 

[Baneat]

Isn't gold farming run by criminal cartels?

As is piracy...

Just no, it's just a business

 

[Chiefwakka]

Gold farming will always occupy a grey area until the "Social-Gaming Experience" can be given a real quantitative value. Maybe it will happen in our lifetimes, but until then, mainstream society isn't going to give a pile of poopy about some guys in a third world country messing with a "kids game".

 

[deleted_by_strongbad]

So assuming you could find a service where everything is being done ethically and above board, I see this as an inventive new marketplace.

There are no ethical above-board services. They're either botters who take away from people who are actually playing the game by grabbing up limited resources... Or they're phishers who are outright robbing people who are actually playing the game.

The only people who truly benefit from gold farming are gold farmers.

That is a really good point. Would you feel differently if there was a "fair trade" type analyst group that would give a seal of approval for groups who are using both good employment practices and verify they are not botting/cheating in any way?

 

[hansari]

Context is everything. Click here to see some sensible comparisons... [http://www.globallabourrights.org/]

Like this one? [http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports?id=0034]
Remind me, are Microsoft good or evil for using Slavery to make their peripherals?

Is this a good thing to be introducing to the country?

No, and nowhere in my post did I say this.

You know, just while "everyone's" calling me a fool for getting upset over this.

What I, and others, are taking issue with is the prior comparison you were making. Comparing what Microsoft is doing in China, or Ford, to gold farming is sensible. Both are jobs where the participants are being overworked and underpayed.

What isn't sensible is comparing gold farming to say organ harvesting. Yes, they are both deplorable, but one is far more extreme then the other that they can't possibly be compared.

It's like saying failing an exam can be compared to losing a family member in a car accident. Both will bring you misery, but one case is far too extreme to sensibly pair the two together.

Is Gold Farming better than this purely because their slaves live better lives than Microsoft's slaves?

This is where I bring up the word context again.

As Li Hua, a gold farmer stated :"The working conditions are hard. We don't get weekends off and I only have one day free a month. But compared to other jobs it is good. I have no other skills and I enjoy playing sometimes."

The world Li Hua is in isn't perfect. His job isn't ideal. But one has to earn for themselves or their family. And so Li Hua is making the most of what he has to deal with.

Upon closer examination, you can see an argument made for why gold farming is a better job to be underpayed and overworked in. I don't know, for example, what the chance of losing appendages or limbs as a gold farmer are, but I can imagine its significantly lower than those being overworked in say an auto-parts factory.

Is Gold Farming better than this purely because their slaves live better lives than Microsoft's slaves?

Compared to say a minimum wage job at a supermarket in America? I imagine Li Hua would love that. But again, thats not the world Li Hua lives in.

And if your arguing that change is necessary, you are correct. But it isn't that easy and it isn't going to happen overnight. Activists like Ai Weiwei are going to help close the gap in time when change can happen [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Weiwei], but until that time, I don't blame people like Li Hua who are just trying to make the best of shitty circumstances.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

No, and nowhere in my post did I say this.

Context is everything. http://www.globallabourrights.org/ : Click here to see some sensible comparisons...

http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports?id=0034 Like this one?
Remind me, are Microsoft good or evil for using Slavery to make their peripherals?

You passed me the link, I made use of it.

What I, and others, are taking issue with is the prior comparison you were making. Comparing what Microsoft is doing in China, or Ford, to gold farming is sensible. Both are jobs where the participants are being overworked and underpayed.

The comparison you made was your own. I said that there were other ways that were harmful to the country while still propping up the economy.

but until that time, I don't blame people like Li Hua who are just trying to make the best of shitty circumstances.

I blame the World Bank if it says that is a good way out though. Which is what I said in my original post.