Xbox One "Will Do Very Little" Without Day-One Patch

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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theApoc said:
I am am the only one with facts to back up my points slick, so yeah I guess that makes me the smart one...
Genius in France, maybe, but here you're just kinda' talking and we all know better. Mind you, we HAVE tried to enlighten you, explain rather calmly that your facts are - in truth - passionate beliefs. And what have you done? Well, in return, you have been abusive and in fact broken rules of conduct. Now, you have two options, guy. You can stop carrying on when everybody has already told you what's true and what's not, or you can wait inevitably for the mistake that will bring down modship. You've already called names, mocked intelligence, and ignored just about everybody whom you should have listened to. This is my warning to you, because it is fair to do so. You should stop now before one comes from a mod, which in your case would be a suspension.
 

theApoc

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FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
I am am the only one with facts to back up my points slick, so yeah I guess that makes me the smart one...
Genius in France, maybe, but here you're just kinda' talking and we all know better. Mind you, we HAVE tried to enlighten you, explain rather calmly that your facts are - in truth - passionate beliefs. And what have you done? Well, in return, you have been abusive and in fact broken rules of conduct. Now, you have two options, guy. You can stop carrying on when everybody has already told you what's true and what's not, or you can wait inevitably for the mistake that will bring down modship. You've already called names, mocked intelligence, and ignored just about everybody whom you should have listened to. This is my warning to you, because it is fair to do so. You should stop now before one comes from a mod, which in your case would be a suspension.
You are joking right? What are they going to "bust" me for? Using their own articles and that of other reputable tech sources to disprove your opinions?

I told you and the only other person arguing with me, XBOX One is a media device, it was marketed as such, a day one patch for tech is common, there is nothing nefarious about MS's business model with this gen of console.

The sales numbers seem to suggest that XBOX One will do just fine(which I said would be the case for both consoles). I also said that both last gen systems would continue to thrive and be supported(another fact, also evident in sales numbers), and that your vocal minority grievances were irrelevant.

I am still not sure as to how you think any point you have tried to make is justified based on the ACTUAL data, but as I have stated, all of your opinions are easily disputed by the actual numbers. You have an opinion, ok, that is awesome, good for you. I got ONE warning for calling Strazdas a genius, and I left it at that. Big difference between making you look foolish with sourced data and calling you names out of spite.

One last review of the facts.

- MS presented XBOX One as a media device.
- It requires the internet to be 100% functional(just like PS4)
- XBOX live numbers drove the decision to go in this direction.
- Once patched, the XBOX One will work just fine offline.
- Initial sales suggest that the device will be on par with its predecessor and competition

Those are facts, not opinion, as in they are actually what has and what is happening with this console. You may not agree, but as stated earlier, your opinion in that regard is irrelevant to the facts. Not really concerned about being moderated for presenting external information that disproves your opinions. And I had no problem telling the people who sent me a warning as much. I posted my thoughts in rebuttal to your opinions, and I used outside sources to back up those thoughts.

I never claimed one console to be better than the other, just made it clear that they were not just for gaming, no matter what lame fanboy arguments were being made. In this case, the sky is actually blue, with data to prove it, you saying it is green will not change that fact, no matter how hard you try... Sorry, that is just how it is.
 

theApoc

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Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Yeah, nothing you said is correct. Therefore by default you and your non points win. Go you.
Ran out of arguments already?
You would have to say something intelligent for me to need a new argument.
Yep, everyones an idiot and your the only smart person around.
I am am the only one with facts to back up my points slick, so yeah I guess that makes me the smart one...
Considering how you always ignore whenever we show your "Facts" to be wrong and continue on to place them as "Facts", i am highly sceptical of anything you claim, including your own intelligence.
Post one fact that supports your argument and disproves mine, with sources.
 

theApoc

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FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
You do understand that, having been denounced several and severely, you're not going to make any headway here, right?
Denounced by who? Two guys who have nothing backing up their opinions? Do you honestly think that is going to make me rethink my opinion of the FACTS? Seriously how misguided are you?
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
- Initial sales suggest that the device will be on par with its predecessor and competition

Those are facts, not opinion..
No, no it isn't.
Facts are based on proof, not suggestion.
 

theApoc

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Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
- Initial sales suggest that the device will be on par with its predecessor and competition

Those are facts, not opinion..
No, no it isn't.
Facts are based on proof, not suggestion.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/130125-Xbox-Dominates-US-Black-Friday-Retail-Console-Sales?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=news

Here ya go. Those figure on a major shopping holiday do in FACT suggest that it will be on par with it's predecessor AND the competition. Didn't say it would outsell(only time will tell), but I did present a FACT in suggesting that your ridiculous complaints will have little, if any effect on the consoles success during it's life cycle.

Are we done? Cause you keep saying nothing of any value and I am getting tired of refuting this nonsense with data.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Yeah, nothing you said is correct. Therefore by default you and your non points win. Go you.
Ran out of arguments already?
You would have to say something intelligent for me to need a new argument.
Yep, everyones an idiot and your the only smart person around.
I am am the only one with facts to back up my points slick, so yeah I guess that makes me the smart one...
Considering how you always ignore whenever we show your "Facts" to be wrong and continue on to place them as "Facts", i am highly sceptical of anything you claim, including your own intelligence.
Post one fact that supports your argument and disproves mine, with sources.
PS4 can play games without connecting to internet ever.
Xbox One cant.
Source: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2427050,00.asp
 

theApoc

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Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Yeah, nothing you said is correct. Therefore by default you and your non points win. Go you.
Ran out of arguments already?
You would have to say something intelligent for me to need a new argument.
Yep, everyones an idiot and your the only smart person around.
I am am the only one with facts to back up my points slick, so yeah I guess that makes me the smart one...
Considering how you always ignore whenever we show your "Facts" to be wrong and continue on to place them as "Facts", i am highly sceptical of anything you claim, including your own intelligence.
Post one fact that supports your argument and disproves mine, with sources.
PS4 can play games without connecting to internet ever.
Xbox One cant.
Source: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2427050,00.asp
Um, that was not the argument at hand. I get that is all you have, but it is completely irrelevant to the overall discussion. And as stated MANY times, the PS4 will not play every game 100% out of the box, since it is the PUBLISHER who controls the DRM on both consoles not the consoles themselves.

You claimed MS somehow mislead it's customers, that is false. You claimed that XBOX One is somehow broken because it needs a software update to function AFTER it was built, it is not.

Honestly, I still don't see what you are complaining about.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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theApoc said:
Um, that was not the argument at hand. I get that is all you have, but it is completely irrelevant to the overall discussion. And as stated MANY times, the PS4 will not play every game 100% out of the box, since it is the PUBLISHER who controls the DRM on both consoles not the consoles themselves.

You claimed MS somehow mislead it's customers, that is false. You claimed that XBOX One is somehow broken because it needs a software update to function AFTER it was built, it is not.

Honestly, I still don't see what you are complaining about.
Publisher decides DRM on PS4. Microsoft wanted to force DRM on XboxOne but was talked out of it. However Xbox still ships with DRM active and needs to connect to internet in order to disable it. Meanwhile you can update your PS4 from a USB stick.
I did not claim that Microsoft mislead its costumers. I did however claimed that Xbox is broken because it is broken if it cannot function when bought.
You on the other hand mislead the readers multiple times.
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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theApoc said:
Denounced by who? Two guys who have nothing backing up their opinions? Do you honestly think that is going to make me rethink my opinion of the FACTS? Seriously how misguided are you?
Please do not ask me questions meant for yourself. You're in recursion. You've been singing the "Lah-Lah-Lah Can't Hear You" song the entire thread and contributed debunked opinions instead of conversation. Time to move on.
 

theApoc

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Strazdas said:
theApoc said:
Um, that was not the argument at hand. I get that is all you have, but it is completely irrelevant to the overall discussion. And as stated MANY times, the PS4 will not play every game 100% out of the box, since it is the PUBLISHER who controls the DRM on both consoles not the consoles themselves.

You claimed MS somehow mislead it's customers, that is false. You claimed that XBOX One is somehow broken because it needs a software update to function AFTER it was built, it is not.

Honestly, I still don't see what you are complaining about.
Publisher decides DRM on PS4. Microsoft wanted to force DRM on XboxOne but was talked out of it. However Xbox still ships with DRM active and needs to connect to internet in order to disable it. Meanwhile you can update your PS4 from a USB stick.
I did not claim that Microsoft mislead its costumers. I did however claimed that Xbox is broken because it is broken if it cannot function when bought.
You on the other hand mislead the readers multiple times.
You assume(incorrectly) that the primary purpose of always online was DRM. It wasn't. Again, that is a fact, the XBOX has MANY features linked to internet connectivity that have nothing to do with games. Synchronization is a key factor in this type of setup, allowing for a smoother user experience and a less intrusive maintenance path. Apple does it. Google does it, Android, etc. The idea of a streamlined user experience is found everywhere.

With that connectivity does in fact come control, but having this as part of a devices feature set does not "break" that device. The devices will work just fine, but they are tethered to the source and that connection can be used in many ways. You don't own content, you license it. Be it on disc or digital, you do not have ownership of any content you buy unless expressly granted that right by the publisher. Now you do have the right(in general) to transfer that license(by selling your discs, deactivating your software keys, etc.

Most digital media is tied to a device or to a specific account, MS moving in this direction for XBOX was neither nefarious or misguided. Honestly if they had left the feature in it is unlikely it would have ultimately affected their customer base in any tangible way. DRM, cloud synchronization, or whatever you want to call it, that is all part of life.

The XBOX One does in fact function as intended when bought, as it was designed to take updates via the internet. It will work as intended after an OS update and I seriously doubt anyone would have complained at all about needing the internet if that day one update was a patch that allowed the console to play your old library of games. You complain because you want to shout into the wind, not because there is actually anything "broken" about either console. Hardware failures, software glitches, that is a fact of life with tech, no company has a 100% functional rate with new devices, and the general public is used to and comfortable with that.
 

theApoc

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FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
Denounced by who? Two guys who have nothing backing up their opinions? Do you honestly think that is going to make me rethink my opinion of the FACTS? Seriously how misguided are you?
Please do not ask me questions meant for yourself. You're in recursion. You've been singing the "Lah-Lah-Lah Can't Hear You" song the entire thread and contributed debunked opinions instead of conversation. Time to move on.
Post one relevant fact and I will call you the winner...
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
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theApoc said:
FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
Denounced by who? Two guys who have nothing backing up their opinions? Do you honestly think that is going to make me rethink my opinion of the FACTS? Seriously how misguided are you?
Please do not ask me questions meant for yourself. You're in recursion. You've been singing the "Lah-Lah-Lah Can't Hear You" song the entire thread and contributed debunked opinions instead of conversation. Time to move on.
Post one relevant fact and I will call you the winner...
Go back into the thread and start reading. That's your only recourse. No baiting, no goading, no red herrings, no diversions, or anything else. Just go and read EVERYTHING everyone said to you, including me and Stazzy, and none of your nasty backtalk either. We simply won't have it our house! Harrumph!
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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theApoc said:
You assume(incorrectly) that the primary purpose of always online was DRM.
I think you should go back and read what microsoft said when they announced it. Spearheading the reasons was DRM aimed against piracy and used games.

Again, that is a fact, the XBOX has MANY features linked to internet connectivity that have nothing to do with games.
Yes, just like the fact that you can play games on your mobile phone has no effect on your calls. They are additional extra features.

Synchronization is a key factor in this type of setup, allowing for a smoother user experience and a less intrusive maintenance path. Apple does it. Google does it, Android, etc. The idea of a streamlined user experience is found everywhere.
So Xbox "now downloading" One update mechanism is not intrusive? ha ha ha ha ha. yeah you should really find some better arguments. Actually, you should get better examples too. Apple update mechanism is horrendeous and their control stranglehold is appaling. The day android stopped allowing me to download the items i bought on google play marketplace and install them offline is the day i stopped using it.

With that connectivity does in fact come control, but having this as part of a devices feature set does not "break" that device.
But thats the problem right here. Its not part of the device features. its a requirement.

You don't own content, you license it. Be it on disc or digital, you do not have ownership of any content you buy unless expressly granted that right by the publisher. Now you do have the right(in general) to transfer that license(by selling your discs, deactivating your software keys, etc.
Courts would beg to differ.

Most digital media is tied to a device or to a specific account, MS moving in this direction for XBOX was neither nefarious or misguided.
It was both and so is for any other company that does it.

DRM, cloud synchronization, or whatever you want to call it, that is all part of life.
So was slavery. Point: just because its part of reality does not mean its good or we should not fight agasint it.

The XBOX One does in fact function as intended when bought, as it was designed to take updates via the internet.
hence broken by design

I seriously doubt anyone would have complained at all about needing the internet if that day one update was a patch that allowed the console to play your old library of games.
Statstically onlt 1-2% people played backward compatible games on previuos consoles. 100% people played games on them.[footnote]excluding people who bought a machine that was more expensive than market counterparts exclusively to play dvds or watch tv. Those people obviously didn't care about what they were buying[/footnote]

You complain because you want to shout into the wind, not because there is actually anything "broken" about either console.
Im so glad you are once again calling me stupid. have we gone full circle?

Hardware failures, software glitches, that is a fact of life with tech, no company has a 100% functional rate with new devices, and the general public is used to and comfortable with that.
Did you see me complaining about such technological blunders? no, in fact i did quite the opposite. but i guess you are going to write whatever fits your arguments better anyway right?
What i cimplained about are consoles not functioning due to stupid decisions by the company and not due to failure rates that are unavoidable.
 

theApoc

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FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
Denounced by who? Two guys who have nothing backing up their opinions? Do you honestly think that is going to make me rethink my opinion of the FACTS? Seriously how misguided are you?
Please do not ask me questions meant for yourself. You're in recursion. You've been singing the "Lah-Lah-Lah Can't Hear You" song the entire thread and contributed debunked opinions instead of conversation. Time to move on.
Post one relevant fact and I will call you the winner...
Go back into the thread and start reading. That's your only recourse. No baiting, no goading, no red herrings, no diversions, or anything else. Just go and read EVERYTHING everyone said to you, including me and Stazzy, and none of your nasty backtalk either. We simply won't have it our house! Harrumph!
I am done with you. Nasty backtalk? Yeah, ok. Typical "community" nonsense. Your post count does not mean you have some deeper wisdom, it means you like to whine a lot more than most, everyone does it, it is part of the fun of the internet.

This thread was about how MS was screwing people by releasing a "broken" console. Those are the words being tossed around. It's not broken. Always online wasn't designed to screw the customer, and MS never hid their intentions.

You guys don't like DRM, I get it. What you don't seem to get is that all consoles have DRM, from Atari, to an iPhone. They also have copyright, which means that no matter how many times something is bought or sold, the CONTENT belongs to the publisher. You rent it, for lack of a better word, so long as you OWN the playback medium. When you sell the medium, you give up your license for the content.

That is how it works, how it has always worked. Your claims that MS is somehow anti consumer because they want more control over license transfers is ridiculous. And the truth of the matter, ultimately this type of control is better for the consumer. How? By tracking ownership it allows your media to be backed up, and more than likely at some point, stored off premise, it allows it to follow you, regardless of system. By stepping away from the physical, it becomes easier to serve the consumers and keep up with technology.

"But they want to control how I use my game..." Wrong, they want to know who is using their content, they want to control piracy, and the best and most unobtrusive way to do that, is a simple verification of the license holder. And so long as that license is easily transferred between devices and/or people, there should not be an issue.

The problem with traditional DRM was this transfer, still is. Losing content, or access because of bad or unstable licenses.

Regardless, you can spout all of the "you are mean, we are right" nonsense you like. MS never misrepresented XBOX One. Never. And as soon as they realized the vocal minority wasn't ready or capable of understanding their intent, they created a patch and made it available to anyone who wanted it. You can like or not like MS, but you can't say they tried to put one over on the consumer, sorry but that is just false.
 

theApoc

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Strazdas said:
I think you should go back and read what microsoft said when they announced it. Spearheading the reasons was DRM aimed against piracy and used games.
None of which are anti-consumer, it was a tit for tat argument in terms of connectivity. Features and benefits vs restrictions. None of which were hidden from the end user.

So Xbox "now downloading" One update mechanism is not intrusive? ha ha ha ha ha. yeah you should really find some better arguments. Actually, you should get better examples too. Apple update mechanism is horrendeous and their control stranglehold is appaling. The day android stopped allowing me to download the items i bought on google play marketplace and install them offline is the day i stopped using it.
Then you are sadly going to get left behind. My point was not solely in regards to how awesome this type of synchronization is, but rather how you have to factor in the good, with the bad when making any assessment. Yeah, some stuff sucks about it, but there are also some really cool benefits that take the average user out of the picture and allows for a more streamlined experience. I like control of my devices as well, and as such I sacrifice some of the upsides to this type of connectivity. But I am not an average user, nor am I blind to the control this gives to the hardware makers. The question becomes, am I willing to accept this in order to utilize the technology? In some cases yes, and in some cases no. Point being, it is what it is, and MS was not devious about this, unlike Sony, by the way, who just kept their mouth shut, claiming they would not impose restrictions on content, neglecting to mention that just like MS, that discretion was left up to the publisher. Meaning in the end, the consumer had no more power, and ultimately less protection from such practices. See MS controlling their eco system, like apple means they get to dictate how publishers interact with consumers, and that is not a bad thing.

But thats the problem right here. Its not part of the device features. its a requirement.
As soon as there is user value beyond the benefits a function has to the creator, it is a feature. Let's say that most people who want XBOX One have a 360. They have accounts, purchases, music, avatar crap, gamerscore, etc. All would require a day one update to sync with the new system, so the ONLY way to save progress as YOU, on either system, would be such an update. Now maybe you could copy to a USB or something, but in the end, maintaining history between devices is not a trivial thing and it will always require some type of synchronization. Day one patch allows for use offline, doesn't mean connecting would not have been necessary without it...

Courts would beg to differ.
No they wouldn't.

http://newleaflegal.com/no-you-dont-own-your-itunes-music/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/05/digital-media-licensed-not-owned

There is a lot more precedent, but you get the idea.

It was both and so is for any other company that does it.
Sadly, since you don't actually own the content, you are wrong.

So was slavery. Point: just because its part of reality does not mean its good or we should not fight agasint it.
Why? Look, I make music, I sell it on iTunes and Amazon. I like for people to hear what I do and to spread it to their friends. I don't sell enough to care about who does what with the mp3's. But I would care if I heard my song in a commercial, or a movie without my consent. See I don't care about the MP3, or the CD's. Those are to be bought sold and traded ad nausea. But my creative work? Yeah that belongs to me, not the listener, not a re-seller. Me. Consumers are under the false impression that they own this content, trust me, you don't.

hence broken by design
That is an opinion, not rooted in fact, simply because it was intended to be used online.

Statstically onlt 1-2% people played backward compatible games on previuos consoles. 100% people played games on them.[footnote]excluding people who bought a machine that was more expensive than market counterparts exclusively to play dvds or watch tv. Those people obviously didn't care about what they were buying[/footnote]
That was not my point. My point was that the patch in and of itself is not "bad" or "good", but rather how you are choosing to perceive it.

Im so glad you are once again calling me stupid. have we gone full circle?
And I am sorry you are so insecure as to take my analysis of your points as calling you stupid. I think you are wrong because you are ignoring the facts to suite your opinions, your intelligence or lack there of has nothing to do with it.

Did you see me complaining about such technological blunders? no, in fact i did quite the opposite. but i guess you are going to write whatever fits your arguments better anyway right?
What i cimplained about are consoles not functioning due to stupid decisions by the company and not due to failure rates that are unavoidable.
Again, you missed the point. The point being, technology is always changing, sometimes to fix errors, sometimes to enhance the experience. They are allowing the console to function BEYOND it's intended and presented use. That is not broken. You may not like the fact that it was intended to be always on-line, but you can't claim that as a flaw just because you don't like it. I mean, you can do that, but it does't validate your point. People know what they are getting and why, that ultimately is all that matters.
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
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theApoc said:
Actually, my age, my past experiences, people that know me, and the evidence before my eyes would tell me that I've obtained a deeper wisdom. I can't change what happens with other people in the course of their lives. I can only try to help.
 

theApoc

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FalloutJack said:
theApoc said:
Actually, my age, my past experiences, people that know me, and the evidence before my eyes would tell me that I've obtained a deeper wisdom. I can't change what happens with other people in the course of their lives. I can only try to help.
Then I suggest you try and be a bit more objective...
 

theApoc

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FalloutJack said:
Sorry, end-times, but the facts were on my side and the thread bears it out. And you are being decidedly rude. That will stop immediately.
I find it amusing that you are the one calling me rude, claiming I have no valid points and yet this:

Okay, young man, I'm going to have to return your paper with a D-minus. You haven't done the research, your format doesn't conform to the MLA standard, and you have no bibliography. And if I weren't such a decent professor, I'd fail you from the course for plagiarism, because you're clearly just towing the company line, not giving us a different nuance to the class.
is how you chose to address my arguments. That is more patronizing and rude than anything I posted. Ironic and typical of someone who doesn't actually have a point.