Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

[Your once and future Fanboy]

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. There are NO corridors in the open ended part of the game. They aren't longer. It is, indeed, open ended. You can explore freely.

Misinformed post is misinformed.

i second that!
They did the same with FFX (a game that in my view have gotten WAY misjudged), linear trough a good chunk of it, and then it opened up to this large world that gave a lot of side quests and treasure hunting.

And while im on the subject...Everybody compares this to FF7, while i believe it to be a spiritual sequel to FFx.

 

[Your once and future Fanboy]

If someone (im looking at you Mr.Croshaw) would like to try out some Really good jrpg titles i would wholeheartedly recommend the Shin Megami Tensai: Persona games (especially SMT: Persona 3 FES & Persona 4, both available for the PS2)

and just to remind people: If you dont like Japanese culture/storytelling and/or Anime/manga you should never try to review a JRPG.
that like i i where to review a Kanye West or Akon cd( and i hate Rap and hip hop with a passion).

 

[Your once and future Fanboy]

I posted a lot.

 

[Wounded Melody]

awwww I was looking forward to you answering some of the stuff posted
Still, your mini review of FF6 makes my heart warm.

 

[Wounded Melody]

]
Because god forbid, with 3 characters being adults and one being actually middle age, it's a [/i]carnal sin[/i] to have a girl that looks younger.

beecause you know, childish ladies don't exist in reality.

Please...

They don't generally, at least not in a physical sense, outside of hormone deficiencies or medical ailments. People age and hit puberty differently, this is a well established fact, but also a well established fact is that the Japanese hentai crowd has this tendency to animate schoolgirls that are supposed to be barely legal and look like they definitely aren't legal. Now, in fairness, we do this in our pornography too, but that doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Well, I don't have any deficiency or ailment (that I know of) but people have said I look as young as 15. Maybe Vanille just looks young? XD But knowing Japan...no.

 

[bjj hero]

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. There are NO corridors in the open ended part of the game. They aren't longer. It is, indeed, open ended. You can explore freely.

Misinformed post is misinformed.

For me it doesn't matter as I wont play a game that only lets me half play it for 20 hours before I get to play the real game. Tutorials should not pass the 15 minute mark.

Can someone talk to Squeenix and get them to bury FF so they can make the follow up to Vagrant Story?

 

[DugMachine]

Great read like always. I myself am not a fan of turn based fighting systems and probably never will. Now thats not to say I won't play them. I usually play FF just because visually, its a beautiful game. Make it a hack n' slash and i'll be all over that! Anyhow, i'm looking foward to Mogworld!

 

[jamescorck]

I so agree with Yahtzee on this point.

I personally love Final Fantasy VIII, but that's because it was the first RPG I ever played. Chronno Trigger, in the other hand, is a powerful contender for best RPG of all time, whether it's western or japanese.

And I am surprised of all the punishment that FF XIII is receiving from his end. I almost feel pitty for the game...Nah, I don't. Yahtzee has nailed it by the gut and golly me, it's the most awesome thing ever.

 

[Qualko]

...and I don't care what any official media says, if Vanille is over 16 I will suffocate myself with a miniskirt

As both a fan of spectacle, and someone who played more then the first five hours, I feel obliged to point out that...

Spoiler

... later in the game, you find out that Vanille is over 500 years old.

The point is that she most definately does not look over 16, and this is rather creepy, because... you know...

 

[Abriael]

[
For me it doesn't matter as I wont play a game that only lets me half play it for 20 hours before I get to play the real game. Tutorials should not pass the 15 minute mark.

Tutorials in FFXIII don't go past 1 minute each. The first 10 chapters, albeit linear, are a real game. There's no rule anywhere that says that a game needs to allow free exploration to be a real game, yanno.

 

[bjj hero]

Tutorials in FFXIII don't go past 1 minute each. The first 10 chapters, albeit linear, are a real game. There's no rule anywhere that says that a game needs to allow free exploration to be a real game, yanno.

Having not played it, only having read positive reviews of the game, what do people mean when they say you dont get the full battle system until half way through?

Linear can be a good thing if done well. Helps with pacing etc.

 

[boholikeu]

You say you're not in control? Really? What is "being in control" like? In games it normally means that the game puts a problem in front of you, and you have to solve such problem through input.
Even during the most linear parts, Final Fantasy XIII puts enemies in front of you, and you have to decide how to kill them. That's the very definition of being "in control".

My main problem with the FF series (and many other JRPGs for that matter) is that even though they have such rich and detailed stories, the narrative is almost always completely divorced from gameplay. As such, I usually have a hard time justifying a full play through of the game when watching cinematics on youtube would get me roughly the same experience. I believe this is what Yahtzee is referring to when he notes that the game "plays itself" because most actions relevant to the plot are indeed completely out of control of the character. Yes, you can do tactical battles and micromanagement and whatnot, but does any of that have any relation to the main story's themes? More often than not I find it's completely contradictory to them.

 

[Abriael]

My main problem with the FF series (and many other JRPGs for that matter) is that even though they have such rich and detailed stories, the narrative is almost always completely divorced from gameplay. As such, I usually have a hard time justifying a full play through of the game when watching cinematics on youtube would get me roughly the same experience. I believe this is what Yahtzee is referring to when he notes that the game "plays itself" because most actions relevant to the plot are indeed completely out of control of the character. Yes, you can do tactical battles and micromanagement and whatnot, but does any of that have any relation to the main story's themes? More often than not I find it's completely contradictory to them.

Contradictory? No. Not controllable plotwise? Sure, but that's something common of many games (actually, most games). What would be contradictory between the gameplay and the story?

Having not played it, only having read positive reviews of the game, what do people mean when they say you dont get the full battle system until half way through?
Linear can be a good thing if done well. Helps with pacing etc.

Combat starts simple, and you get new features added along the way. You unlock further paradigms available to each character and so forth.
This isn't different from any progressive game in which your character starts with a limited amount of skills/weapons/whatever and your options become more varied as you progress.

Though, for some, this is unforgivable only for Final Fantasy XIII

 

[MR.Spartacus]

As far as the whole Vanille thing. There was a gal where I worked who looked like she was fourteen-fifteen. She was actually twenty-three. I might actually hunt down a couple of them there games he mentioned.

 

[boholikeu]

Contradictory? No. Not controllable plotwise? Sure, but that's something common of many games (actually, most games). What would be contradictory between the gameplay and the story?

Gameplay can be contradictory to the story if the player's actions don't match what the game story is trying to tell you. For example, it's contradictory for an RPG that's about healing the world to only make the combat situations playable. For a better explanation of this google "ludo-narrative dissonance".

Edit: let me also note that this is completely different from linearity. A game can be totally linear, yet still have the player in control of mechanics relevant to the overall plot.

 

[EmmerikXXII]

The debate continues...

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Of course Yahtzee does tend to bait fans by saying hyperbolic things like "if you like it then you are provably wrong", hence some of the rage is brought upon himself, but he makes some fairly valid criticisms. Above all, the fact that you have to play the game for twenty hours before it gets good.

First of all, that's not a point he has the basis to make, because he played just 5 hours. That's not a review, That's hearsay.

Also, "you have to play 20 hours before it gets good" is an opinion, not a "valid point", and that's an opinion based on the possibility of the generic "you" to dislike linear gameplay.
Personally, the game got "good" as soon as I saw the first scenes, I don't mind linear gameplay, and I don't think that freedom of exploration is an indispensible trait of a quality game. If it was, my options to find good games would be radically narrowed.
There are plenty critically acclaimed games that are a whole X hours long on-rail adventure. Final Fantasy XIII won't be the first, nor the last, but lots of people seem to feel personally slighted by the fact it's linear. It's funny to see how the same people aren't as offended by other games that are equally straightforward.

Personally, I find that a big part of that disparity in judgement, expecially from the press, comes from the fact that Final Fantasy XIII is a Japanese game, and it's become "hip" to bash Japanese games. No matter the quality.

The fun part is that when we receive a JRPG that truly innovates the genre in many ways (White Knight Chronicles), they will find other excuses to bash it (and I did see reviews criticizing it for being too "confusing" in the explorative part. Damn you, you want linear or free exploration?).

100 hours? FF13 is only 40 hours long and most of that is grueling

It's 40 hours if you whine about it being linear and then PURPOSEDLY play it linear

Chapter 11 can easily be over 60 hours long, depending on how you play it, if you do all the missions, hunt all the monsters, look for all the components to get your ultimate weapons and so forth.
FFXIII is 2 games in one, basically. You can chose to play one, and whine it's linear and shallow, or you can play both, and you'll have an extremely rich and deep game.

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

If you ask me, X was one of the best, if not THE best one in the series; and it has nothing to do with linearity, although I love the story - it has to do with the combat system, which IMHO, is tied for greatest battle system of all time right up there with Legend of Dragoon.

So, put those two together, and the "corridors" are tolerable.

XIII had to be their idea of a joke, though; you seen the interviews with the project lead? *headdesk*

The best thing about X was blitz ball and the sphere grind, the combat was pretty much FF standard fair stat based TB combat,they say otherwise but functionally it is as thats how you play it.....

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. There are NO corridors in the open ended part of the game. They aren't longer. It is, indeed, open ended. You can explore freely.

Misinformed post is misinformed.

Thats like saying Quake 4 is not a corridor shooter because of the large vehicle levels.....or Turok is not a corridor shooter because 2 or 4 levels have 2 paths you can take.......through the corridored layouts.....

 

[afaceforradio]

OK I'm a bit pissed that Mogworld can't be bought from amazon.co.uk, but can be bought from the American Amazon site? Come on Yahtzee!

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Contradictory? No. Not controllable plotwise? Sure, but that's something common of many games (actually, most games). What would be contradictory between the gameplay and the story?

Gameplay can be contradictory to the story if the player's actions don't match what the game story is trying to tell you. For example, it's contradictory for an RPG that's about healing the world to only make the combat situations playable. For a better explanation of this google "ludo-narrative dissonance".

Edit: let me also note that this is completely different from linearity. A game can be totally linear, yet still have the player in control of mechanics relevant to the overall plot.

Do to limited content games are linear but you can build it so you are distracted from the linearity, Fallout 1-2 is more open world than most but keeps you on track via quests and enemy zones that keep you on track. The next line of games that is less open are you traditional Jrpgs of old Lufia,FF,Phansty Star ect,ect you are slowly introduced to the soundings and the world, this is the type of design style lacking in the modern age. The next line of games you get either less environment to travel or explore(Wild arms remake,Legaia 2,most new RPGs that have a over world but smaller towns,ect) in this same style you also get games that give you less control over your group Star ocean on the PSX comes to mind.

Now we move to the final stage of RPG evolution where you get even less explorable content FFX,XenoSaga,FFX2,Bioware games past KOTOR, ect. The design emphasis is on tightly regulated game flow where skills and general character/group progression can be placed under tighter control as so you don't have to spam content at it to get the story from A to B but most of the time this feels much less contrived and more constricted than anything else.

 

[Mr.Lucifer]

This is overgeneralization of every jrpg since FF7.